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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system. |
TLADT24920 Posts
On October 20 2016 08:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 07:57 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 07:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:
With eSports, people that don't play call you a nerd
Huh? this isn't 2008 anymore. Go to a bar, tell the girl your hitting on that your hobby is playing video games for 4-8 hour stretches. Ask her if that turns her on. If the girl liked video games, sure. But what about the girls that don't care about games? Girls that don't care about soccer will appreciate that you run. That you work out. Girls that don't care about video games will not appreciate your hotkey setup or your expansion timings. maybe it's not the best thing to say to pick up girls but when talking to male people they are usually very interested when I say I'm playing starcraft. I don't think I know a single male person around my age that doesn't play video games, it's completely normal nowadays. But is the fact that you play video games something you use as a signifier of pride? The normal player already knows that he won't be the top player. Going to forums gets him labeled as a noob since he's not a top player. So the only thing left to gain value from the game is social boons. You don't gain social value in society because you practice queen injects for 30 minutes a day.
unless you're a pro, I always thought it was extremely silly when people actually practiced injects or BOs for hours a day just so that they can increase their rank. Think about your game plan (consider a fun strat too if you can manage) and just play the game. Nothing more, nothing less is needed.
One good point Charoisaur makes is that people who know anything about games are impressed even if you just mention starcraft casually lol.
Personally, I think SCII failed due to many reasons. One of the things that personally made me mad was back when the queen buff was done, the community cried for months for a change, a patch, something! I had switched to terran back in WoL, season 3 and even though I liked TvZ, I considered winning late game to be impossible. I always felt like I was on a timer to try and hit before infestors to do some damage because once the zerg got out 7-8 infestors (couple were enough really but I had problems splitting mnm lol), it was rough to win. Like, it still boggles the mind that no patches came during the lings of liberty period when it was obvious that something needed to be done! I could go on and on because like many others, SCII occupied a special place in my heart (so did BW but that's a story for another time) when it first released but slowly became frustrating to play and boring to watch even after HoTS release. w/e.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 20 2016 08:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 07:57 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 07:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:
With eSports, people that don't play call you a nerd
Huh? this isn't 2008 anymore. Go to a bar, tell the girl your hitting on that your hobby is playing video games for 4-8 hour stretches. Ask her if that turns her on. If the girl liked video games, sure. But what about the girls that don't care about games? Girls that don't care about soccer will appreciate that you run. That you work out. Girls that don't care about video games will not appreciate your hotkey setup or your expansion timings.
Why make it seem like the opinion of a girl you're hitting on in a bar determines much of anything? It seems like a really weird metric that you're really bending out of shape to use. How about random people in the subway? That seems like a more productive way to find out what people think than your random bar girl's sexual interests.
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On October 20 2016 09:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 09:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:56 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:43 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:05 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
Go to a bar, tell the girl your hitting on that your hobby is playing video games for 4-8 hour stretches. Ask her if that turns her on. If the girl liked video games, sure. But what about the girls that don't care about games?
Girls that don't care about soccer will appreciate that you run. That you work out.
Girls that don't care about video games will not appreciate your hotkey setup or your expansion timings. maybe it's not the best thing to say to pick up girls but when talking to male people they are usually very interested when I say I'm playing starcraft. I don't think I know a single male person around my age that doesn't play video games, it's completely normal nowadays. But is the fact that you play video games something you use as a signifier of pride? The normal player already knows that he won't be the top player. Going to forums gets him labeled as a noob since he's not a top player. So the only thing left to gain value from the game is social boons. You don't gain social value in society because you practice queen injects for 30 minutes a day. not sure what you mean with social value in society. when I tell someone I'm around the top 1% of players in sc2 they're usually quite impressed. most people i know play competitive games too like CS, Lol or Dota and can appreciate achieving a high rank. Since you didn't read what I said, let me attach it here: The issue with eSports is that when people realized that 99% of the player base was shit and that they were part of that 99% then they stopped caring about playing the game because why be competitive in a sport where you are guaranteed to never do well and you don't get the prestige from trying. Congrats on being the 1% Anyone can get to master/high master if they want to and practice enough. Only a % of people get there. By definition. Anyway doesn't matter. I don't play starcraft to impress my friends but because it's my hobby. My point was that a ton of people play (competitive) games nowadays and it's nothing weird to do anymore. I can speak to other people about my hobby without any problem (at least to males) and they won't find it weird at all. Being a nerd because you play video games is outdated. You don't bring it up as a bonus point at work, to your boss, to potential clients. Its not what you use to close a deal, like talking about football does. You don't do it to bond with someone you dislike but have to talk to, like you can with the world cup or the olympics. Its something you can talk to with others who are also doing similar said thing. no but why would you? there are enough other things you can talk about with those interests in mind unless gaming is the only thing you're interested in. I don't think anyone is doing a hobby for the purpose of impressing his boss.
The goal isn't to impress your boss? But conversations always comes up.
"Looking tired, you okay?"
"Went back to playing rugby, body not as young as it used to be"
"Good for you though, keep up the good work"
vs
"Looking tired today"
"Been practicing last hits for on League for about 4-5 hours each night, pretty tiring"
"Why don't you turn the game off sooner?"
"Because, fundamentals are important?"
etc...
Comes up a lot in sales also as a way to bond and make connections with strangers be it international or US customers.
Also comes up a lot in leadership meetings or team meetings.
Like, you'll hear:
"Back when I was playing foot ball in highschool/college, we really learned a lot about _____, and that is why we need to do _____ "
But you won't hear:
"If you want to up your metrics don't forget the importance of APM"
Its just not something that is translatable to thins outside of the video game space. However, especially amongst people that play the same game as you, unless you get to masters or high masters or grandmaster or pro, often times your opinions are considered invalid, your theories about how to play the game considered suspect, and you're told to L2P. When you as a Bronze start theorizing about a different way to grip the mouse, or a different way to improve click accuracy--people tell you to learn2play and that your ideas are irrelevant. Not that they're wrong, but it makes it difficult to feel like your time spent on your hobby feels impactful.
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On October 20 2016 09:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 09:13 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 09:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:56 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:43 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:12 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
maybe it's not the best thing to say to pick up girls but when talking to male people they are usually very interested when I say I'm playing starcraft. I don't think I know a single male person around my age that doesn't play video games, it's completely normal nowadays. But is the fact that you play video games something you use as a signifier of pride? The normal player already knows that he won't be the top player. Going to forums gets him labeled as a noob since he's not a top player. So the only thing left to gain value from the game is social boons. You don't gain social value in society because you practice queen injects for 30 minutes a day. not sure what you mean with social value in society. when I tell someone I'm around the top 1% of players in sc2 they're usually quite impressed. most people i know play competitive games too like CS, Lol or Dota and can appreciate achieving a high rank. Since you didn't read what I said, let me attach it here: The issue with eSports is that when people realized that 99% of the player base was shit and that they were part of that 99% then they stopped caring about playing the game because why be competitive in a sport where you are guaranteed to never do well and you don't get the prestige from trying. Congrats on being the 1% Anyone can get to master/high master if they want to and practice enough. Only a % of people get there. By definition. Anyway doesn't matter. I don't play starcraft to impress my friends but because it's my hobby. My point was that a ton of people play (competitive) games nowadays and it's nothing weird to do anymore. I can speak to other people about my hobby without any problem (at least to males) and they won't find it weird at all. Being a nerd because you play video games is outdated. You don't bring it up as a bonus point at work, to your boss, to potential clients. Its not what you use to close a deal, like talking about football does. You don't do it to bond with someone you dislike but have to talk to, like you can with the world cup or the olympics. Its something you can talk to with others who are also doing similar said thing. no but why would you? there are enough other things you can talk about with those interests in mind unless gaming is the only thing you're interested in. I don't think anyone is doing a hobby for the purpose of impressing his boss. The goal isn't to impress your boss? But conversations always comes up. "Looking tired, you okay?" "Went back to playing rugby, body not as young as it used to be" "Good for you though, keep up the good work" vs "Looking tired today" "Been practicing last hits for on League for about 4-5 hours each night, pretty tiring" "Why don't you turn the game off sooner?" "Because, fundamentals are important?" etc... Comes up a lot in sales also as a way to bond and make connections with strangers be it international or US customers. Also comes up a lot in leadership meetings or team meetings. Like, you'll hear: "Back when I was playing foot ball in highschool/college, we really learned a lot about _____, and that is why we need to do _____ " But you won't hear: "If you want to up your metrics don't forget the importance of APM"
I get what you mean but do people really say
"Ah I should start playing rugby so I can talk with my boss about it"
or
"I find League of Legends really fun but I can't brag about my league skills with my boss so I won't play it"
People just do what they enjoy. if they can brag about it with other people that's fine but nobody starts a hobby just so they have something to talk about with their boss.
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On October 20 2016 09:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 09:38 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 09:13 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 09:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:56 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:46 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:43 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:41 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:37 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 08:22 Thieving Magpie wrote:
[quote]
But is the fact that you play video games something you use as a signifier of pride?
The normal player already knows that he won't be the top player. Going to forums gets him labeled as a noob since he's not a top player. So the only thing left to gain value from the game is social boons. You don't gain social value in society because you practice queen injects for 30 minutes a day. not sure what you mean with social value in society. when I tell someone I'm around the top 1% of players in sc2 they're usually quite impressed. most people i know play competitive games too like CS, Lol or Dota and can appreciate achieving a high rank. Since you didn't read what I said, let me attach it here: The issue with eSports is that when people realized that 99% of the player base was shit and that they were part of that 99% then they stopped caring about playing the game because why be competitive in a sport where you are guaranteed to never do well and you don't get the prestige from trying. Congrats on being the 1% Anyone can get to master/high master if they want to and practice enough. Only a % of people get there. By definition. Anyway doesn't matter. I don't play starcraft to impress my friends but because it's my hobby. My point was that a ton of people play (competitive) games nowadays and it's nothing weird to do anymore. I can speak to other people about my hobby without any problem (at least to males) and they won't find it weird at all. Being a nerd because you play video games is outdated. You don't bring it up as a bonus point at work, to your boss, to potential clients. Its not what you use to close a deal, like talking about football does. You don't do it to bond with someone you dislike but have to talk to, like you can with the world cup or the olympics. Its something you can talk to with others who are also doing similar said thing. no but why would you? there are enough other things you can talk about with those interests in mind unless gaming is the only thing you're interested in. I don't think anyone is doing a hobby for the purpose of impressing his boss. The goal isn't to impress your boss? But conversations always comes up. "Looking tired, you okay?" "Went back to playing rugby, body not as young as it used to be" "Good for you though, keep up the good work" vs "Looking tired today" "Been practicing last hits for on League for about 4-5 hours each night, pretty tiring" "Why don't you turn the game off sooner?" "Because, fundamentals are important?" etc... Comes up a lot in sales also as a way to bond and make connections with strangers be it international or US customers. Also comes up a lot in leadership meetings or team meetings. Like, you'll hear: "Back when I was playing foot ball in highschool/college, we really learned a lot about _____, and that is why we need to do _____ " But you won't hear: "If you want to up your metrics don't forget the importance of APM" I get what you mean but do people really say "Ah I should start playing rugby so I can talk with my boss about it" or "I find League of Legends really fun but I can't brag about my league skills with my boss so I won't play it" People just do what they enjoy. if they can brag about it with other people that's fine but nobody starts a hobby just so they have something to talk about with their boss.
Of course not.
People do however say "I've been spending most of my nights on _____, have I just been wasting my time? What am I actually getting out of this? Am not really getting any better, and its not like I'm going to win any ____, what's the point?"
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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
The thread is not about Proleague ending anymore either
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I've been waiting a few days to talk about this event. I am utterly heartbroken. I can't believe "Post-Kespa era" is going to describe SC2 now.
Ultimately I don't see this as a WCS issue, ultimately KESPA teams don't care about individual leagues, they make their money off the reliable income from Proleauge, and if Proleague isnt sustainable by itself, thats ultimately the problem, Proleague wasnt getting popular enough in Korea.
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Sad to see SC2 gone, especially with how abrupt this ends. Interesting to see Jin Air will support its players.
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sports.news.naver.com
MVP Head coach : "We never decided to disband. We'll continue as our players do."
Yeah, that's MVP.
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On October 20 2016 08:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 08:28 xuanzue wrote:they can plays groups for free btw this is a half true. in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking. the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that. There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games. If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later." In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds.
You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics).
The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive.
This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to.
Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner.
I play and watch sc2 because I like the game.
LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set).
RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA.
PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics.
People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
I hope the players find support, and can continue their careers in a sport they invested so much time and skill in. *SC2 is the most difficult game in competition by a long shot, any pro should be proud to have played at the pro level.
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On October 20 2016 12:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 08:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:28 xuanzue wrote:they can plays groups for free btw this is a half true. in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking. the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that. There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games. If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later." In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds. You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics). The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive. This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to. Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner. I play and watch sc2 because I like the game. LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set). RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA. PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics. People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me.
But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won."
And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37003 Posts
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Someone already got the edit in before me but looks like MVP is still alive
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Elentos kinda called it 
edit, to reply to an old subthread:
On October 20 2016 02:12 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 01:44 opisska wrote:On October 20 2016 01:32 Ve5pa wrote:On October 20 2016 01:31 Charoisaur wrote:On October 20 2016 01:02 Ve5pa wrote:On October 20 2016 00:41 ProMeTheus112 wrote:On October 20 2016 00:34 Ve5pa wrote:On October 20 2016 00:22 Vandeam wrote:
sc2 dead game
WCS system is shit.
David Kim should have been fired a long time ago.
While all of this may be true, expressing your opinion here on a public forum is not welcome. Please refrain from posting your own opinions and instead only use TeamLiquid.net/Blizzard approved opinions, whilst also remembering what is acceptable behavior for moderators is not neceesserally acceptable behavior for you. Thanks I remember, when SC2 was coming out (or before it came out), TL was doing something where if you preordered the game through their link they would get a bonus or something. At this moment I thought, that's unfortunate, the main community site has tied its interest to the profits of Blizzard. And to me, it kind of explains the somewhat aggressive behavior towards some kinds of criticism. But the vast majority can discuss things in a sensible manner, after all this is TL, not Reddit. sc2 dead game
WCS system is shit.
David Kim should have been fired a long time ago. if that's sensible manner for you I'm not sure what you'd call unsensible That's the irony of it all, banning people from addressing these issue just makes them troll more, I wonder how many people have been warned or received bans in this thread. "Fire David Kim" and variations thereof is in no way "addressing the issue". It's entitled childish bullshit. Scapegoating a public face of the project doesn't help anything and just reduces the actual issue to tabloid level debate. I agree that TL is somehow overly sensitive about Blizzard criticism, but anyone shouting negative things about DK (or previously Dustin Browder) is just begging to not be taken seriously. what if it is simply true though... (that the problem comes from these), I know I think so... for sure, stuff like terrible terrible damage, can't you see what it means and how that's exactly the problem? people just don't love the game itself that much because of this stuff, I read it all the time (and thats why I don't play it too, believe me I would if I thought it was great)
But what the heck does anyone here know about the internal structure of Blizzard? Do we know how decisions are made, who is actually pushing the things that you don't like etc.? It's a huge corporation, with many levels of management. The view that you just replace two people and everything will be dandy is, again, simply childish - just look at the bloody politics, where people apply scapegoating all the time and it never actually changes anything.
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Really sad day. Hoping this isn't the end of Korean SCII and also high level SCII team based competition. Things won't be the same, that's for sure.
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South Korea2105 Posts
I wonder if any potential sponsors are considering stepping in now thst the big teams are gone
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I believe KT is also keeping their teamhouse open at least until the end of the year so that their players can finish out this year's tournaments, maybe including IEM Korea.
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On October 20 2016 13:04 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2016 12:59 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2016 08:31 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 20 2016 08:28 xuanzue wrote:they can plays groups for free btw this is a half true. in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking. the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that. There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games. If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later." In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds. You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics). The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive. This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to. Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner. I play and watch sc2 because I like the game. LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set). RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA. PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics. People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore. As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me. But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won." And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
Sorry but what you have named is the difference between team games and 1v1, Age of Empires (RTS) has very good tgs and in a 4v4 you can be the worst of the team and still be proud of holding long enough, tribute resources, raid the enemy trade, etc etc, if LoL or Dota were games where the relevant part was 1v1, who are you going to blame for the lost, or the bad play?, or are you going to be proud for being defeated by yourself?
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Of course they are. There is no death. There is only Choya. Choya is the Way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life.
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The RTS I enjoyed the most was aoe2, mostly because I played it in LAN with my friends.
I never had that good feeling in SC2, the 3v3 and 4v4 were kinda linear, and I only achieved to convince 2 friends to pay $60 for a game that we never played in LAN again.
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EPT
