EPTSC2 Proleague Discontinued; SKT, KT, SGK, CJ disband - Pag…
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Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system. | ||
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Hok
Canada42 Posts
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On October 20 2016 14:05 opisska wrote: Elentos kinda called it  edit, to reply to an old subthread: But what the heck does anyone here know about the internal structure of Blizzard? Do we know how decisions are made, who is actually pushing the things that you don't like etc.? It's a huge corporation, with many levels of management. The view that you just replace two people and everything will be dandy is, again, simply childish - just look at the bloody politics, where people apply scapegoating all the time and it never actually changes anything. If that was true then replacing Jay Wilson would have no effect on Diablo 3. While in truth most people I heard from agree that game improved a lot after his resignation. | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On October 19 2016 22:56 Incognoto wrote: That is pretty much why I've been bitching non-stop about WCS lockign. Won't say more than that (to respect spirit of the thread), but yes, there's a REASON why WCS region locking is so bad. Terrible, terrible. I want to see more Koreans playing Starcraft and now one of the best tournaments in the game is offline. I just fail to see how that is even a TINY bit relevant. What the fuck does ProLeague audience in Korea have to do with fucking region lock ? Let me be clear. Region Lock is the shittiest move Blizzard ever made during the game lifetime (with the BW forcing out as well). But that is totally IRRELEVANT to the fact that ProLeague died. You know that ProLeague was broadcasted on TV in Korea ? That all the advertisement is directed towards the Korean audience because they just don’t care about the 5-10k foreigner that watched that on a stream ? That there way to make money was to reach to Korean sponsor to attract Korean attention ? That, let’s take it largely, only 10% (I’m generous on that one) of the participant in proleague ever went abroad to another tournament ? How many times did you see Korean not attending to a tournament cause there was a proleague playoff to attend to or GSL or SSL or w/e ? How is ANY of these points related in ANY ways to region fucking lock ??!! It’s shit, everyone agrees. But let’s not throw random blames around just for the sake of it cause it suits you. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 20 2016 14:51 palexhur wrote: Sorry but what you have named is the difference between team games and 1v1, Age of Empires (RTS) has very good tgs and in a 4v4 you can be the worst of the team and still be proud of holding long enough, tribute resources, raid the enemy trade, etc etc, if LoL or Dota were games where the relevant part was 1v1, who are you going to blame for the lost, or the bad play?, or are you going to be proud for being defeated by yourself? This actually has to do with games where the fundamentals are focused on things that remain in the player's screen. workers, pylons, you try to keep your screen as much away from it as possible. Street Fighter? CSGO? MOBA? All the fundamentals are the things you're staring at and are working on. RTS fundamentals are strictly shoved separate from the action. Its part of what I love about it. But its also part of what most everyone I know hated the most about RTS games. | ||
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24578 Posts
On October 20 2016 16:24 SuperFanBoy wrote: Where are Idra, Incontrol and DJWheat? I want them to come out and make a public apology and admit they were wrong and that Destiny was right. Haha, what? | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
On October 20 2016 13:04 Thieving Magpie wrote: As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me. But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won." And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does. Man, please don’t go into the « RTS game are for superior people who are more intelligent » thread… Honestly, what is the point of everything you said ? You can as well jump in ranked game on StarCraft, be absolute trash and blame everything but yourself and be fine with it, how is this a "MOBA thing" to do ? Have you ever watched Avilo ? You never played a MOBA, and you don’t enjoy that, fine, but, please… You can do all that you described in that post just the other way around and that’d be fine… In SC2 you can always blame balance instead of your team, that’s the same thing… Ololol MMM too stronk, t1 units beating T3 imba, … you can as well find recomfort in the fact that you were not supply blocked during the whole game while your opponent was, you produced better your workers than he did, … Truth is, if you want to progress and get better, you have to actually be critical about yourself and the way YOU played. I, since I want to get better, blame a lot my teammates, curses them in my room… But I always watch my replays, try to watch streams and get a better game comprehension and understanding, check how I could have done better at that timing into the game, … And this is true for any game, not just RTS. If you wanna get better you just have to challenge yourself, to re-evaluate what you did wrong and what you can do better. | ||
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fronkschnonk
Germany622 Posts
On October 18 2016 17:14 MarthTV wrote: So we´ve finally reached that point. Kespa should have never switched from BW to SC2. In retrospect it only hurt both scenes in Korea. SC2 was doing fine without Kespa und BW was depending on it. Still both games will still exist as esports. I also thought about this. We'll never know how SC2 would've developed without kespa but the kespa switch inflated korean SC2 in an unhealthy way. It made the very own legacy of many SC2-Players and Teams decline because the megastars of golden broodwar-days overshadowed everything (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Reality...). But then, many of those megastars didn't fulfil the expectations, many of them retired sooner or later or just became unrelevant. Also proleague became more and more the only reason of existence for the teams. Proleague was great, but it pushed aside the fame a Starleaguewinner could gain for his team. Without the growing importance of proleague for korean SC2-Teams they probably weren't forced to disband now. Apart from the kespa switch it probably also comes down to the blizzard-kespa dispute about broadcasting rights in SC2. Not that kespa is to blame alone in that case but it's stubborness definitely didn't help. Without this dispute kespa probably would've switched to SC2 way earlier, growing together with the arising SC2-Scene instead of stomping into it when it flourished the most on it's own. Also interesting, the team, which was most willing to undergo tranformations, is now the oldest team with a continuity in SC2: Startale, merging with ZeNEX (which was a merger of Zenith and NEX and brought Life to startale), transforming into SBENU, getting acquired by afreeca. I really hope, afreeca doesn't disband. | ||
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Aeromi
France14455 Posts
On October 20 2016 03:21 Ve5pa wrote: Even though my French is extremely limited these days I too have watched the O'gaming stream a few times, when waiting for English ones to start normally, the production value is great, personalities seem cool toio, and guess what, even the chat was nice!! Not even joking, French twitch chat was nice to me, fair play to them. Watching YoGo trying to snipe Avilo was also funny at times. I wish their was an English speaking community like O'Gaming, that covered Sc2 and other games too. Thanks it means a lot. | ||
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Arceus
Vietnam8332 Posts
On October 20 2016 18:24 fronkschnonk wrote: I also thought about this. We'll never know how SC2 would've developed without kespa but the kespa switch inflated korean SC2 in an unhealthy way. It made the very own legacy of many SC2-Players and Teams decline because the megastars of golden broodwar-days overshadowed everything (Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork, Fantasy, Reality...). But then, many of those megastars didn't fulfil the expectations, many of them retired sooner or later or just became unrelevant. Also proleague became more and more the only reason of existence for the teams. Proleague was great, but it pushed aside the fame a Starleaguewinner could gain for his team. Without the growing importance of proleague for korean SC2-Teams they probably weren't forced to disband now. Apart from the kespa switch it probably also comes down to the blizzard-kespa dispute about broadcasting rights in SC2. Not that kespa is to blame alone in that case but it's stubborness definitely didn't help. Without this dispute kespa probably would've switched to SC2 way earlier, growing together with the arising SC2-Scene instead of stomping into it when it flourished the most on it's own. Also interesting, the team, which was most willing to undergo tranformations, is now the oldest team with a continuity in SC2: Startale, merging with ZeNEX (which was a merger of Zenith and NEX and brought Life to startale), transforming into SBENU, getting acquired by afreeca. I really hope, afreeca doesn't disband. I dont know where do you get that "flourished the most on its own" part. eSF was a joke of governing body with tons of scandals & mismanagement. Why people love to blame everything on KeSPA is way beyond me. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On October 20 2016 14:05 opisska wrote: Elentos kinda called it edit, to reply to an old subthread: But what the heck does anyone here know about the internal structure of Blizzard? Do we know how decisions are made, who is actually pushing the things that you don't like etc.? It's a huge corporation, with many levels of management. The view that you just replace two people and everything will be dandy is, again, simply childish - just look at the bloody politics, where people apply scapegoating all the time and it never actually changes anything. No ok I think basically since blizzard merged with activision and grew out of proportion, they changed a lot the way they work, now they make games with a financial focus. Now it's good to point out bad design decisions where you can see them, in the words of the guy in charge of it, even if he does get kinda orders from the top too. For example with dustin browder, it's a game philosophy of his that is not worthy of starcraft and which you can find both in his words and previous game he worked on the later C&C. With imba high tech units, things like the colossus brood lord ultra.. Terran instead got imba bioball^^ for terrible terrible damage... this is never going to lead with a game of comparable depth or skill. And we expect SC2 to be better than SC1, at least as good. too much to list but yeah I think it's useful, if you fire/move david kim honestly I think it's good, but it's not going to save the game, the damage has been done, and who are they gonna place in his stead anyway? Personally I don't say "fire david kim" a lot, i don't really care cause I think they know why they put this guy there and things aren't going to get good ; imo, even for any new game that blizzard makes. They just won't make masterpieces anymore, they make game with financial focus now, they turned even their offices into like a game producing factory, way too large, obey a shareholder board, and make game design decisions based on marketing rather than quality or passion. D3 has proved this (with the game design oriented towards maximizing "real money auction house" sales dumbing down the gameplay itself a lot, itemization and stat system), but this pattern just keeps repeating since they merged with activision, the pathing in SC2 is an example of this. Everybody knows this dumbs down the game tactics and any defense (so strategy), it looks bad, its just not good for the game, but what is it good for? people who are bad at control/tactics and were not necessarily into RTS, a game easy to play, who will buy and may then watch. financial focus | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
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Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
Haha wow, people demanding them to apologize based on their opinions of 4 years ago during the peak of SC2 scene? That is really really funny in a sad way. No one knows what would happen in the future and based on the information of that time it would be insensible to predict what would happen in the four years time in the future. Sure, in the end they might be wrong but hindsight is 20/20. | ||
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1169 Posts
On October 20 2016 20:35 Veldril wrote: Haha wow, people demanding them to apologize based on their opinions of 4 years ago during the peak of SC2 scene? That is really really funny in a sad way. No one knows what would happen in the future and based on the information of that time it would be insensible to predict what would happen in the four years time in the future. Sure, in the end they might be wrong but hindsight is 20/20. To be fair a certain someone did trash BW pretty hard, and they were kinda obnoxious, so there's that. Anyway, glad to have my own PL memories to look back on. FPL 10: managing to get the stream to work in school, catching the games, investing into FPL and coming in #3 and getting a mention in the news article because of it... good times. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On October 20 2016 20:35 Veldril wrote: Haha wow, people demanding them to apologize based on their opinions of 4 years ago during the peak of SC2 scene? That is really really funny in a sad way. No one knows what would happen in the future and based on the information of that time it would be insensible to predict what would happen in the four years time in the future. Sure, in the end they might be wrong but hindsight is 20/20. How come this is hindsight? Destiny said it back then and he obviously had a reasoning to come to that conclusion. It just seems to me that they didn't want anyone criticizing the game, because it could potentially hurt their paychecks. The most ironic part of this is that Idra himselft quit the game because he didn't like it enough and always criticized it. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On October 20 2016 15:23 Hok wrote: Reading this thread is like seeing mourning in real time... we all grieve in our own ways... For some reason people are mourning StarCraft not proleague. | ||
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Corgi
United States408 Posts
On October 20 2016 21:56 Ansibled wrote: For some reason people are mourning StarCraft not proleague. That's because Proleague is a large part of the current scene and now its gone. For most people, only WCS and GSL are left. On the point of Jay Wilson. His ghosts still haunt Diablo 3 core fundamental game design today. You can find people still referencing his design decisions and influence on how the current design team is basically pigeon holed and they know it too. That's why a growing number of people are asking for Diablo 4 these days instead of the usual "2nd expansion for Diablo 3". | ||
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
Proleague memories | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19141 Posts
On October 20 2016 22:22 Highways wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSXKZUjbd4 Proleague memories Most quality post in this thread. <3 | ||
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