Regardless of the situation, we will still action upon "dead game" comments. As this is a sensitive issue for SC2 fans, please do not come into this thread and talk about SC2 players switching over to BW. This thread is also not about bashing Blizzard, David Kim, or the WCS system.
in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking.
the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that.
There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games.
If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later."
In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds.
You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics).
The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive.
This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to.
Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner.
I play and watch sc2 because I like the game.
LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set).
RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA.
PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics.
People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me.
But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won."
And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
Sorry but what you have named is the difference between team games and 1v1, Age of Empires (RTS) has very good tgs and in a 4v4 you can be the worst of the team and still be proud of holding long enough, tribute resources, raid the enemy trade, etc etc, if LoL or Dota were games where the relevant part was 1v1, who are you going to blame for the lost, or the bad play?, or are you going to be proud for being defeated by yourself?
Well said, the distinction is between team games and 1v1.
For example, in a 2v2 sc2 match I can go macro flawlessly and drop the other teams base killing the eco only to get double 1 base rushed and lose.
I can feel really good about my drop and even blame the other guy on my team for, not scouting, expanding with me, not building enough defense... etc...
The desaster could have and was predicted/preditcable in 2010 without chat channels and no custom game lobbies - let alone the desaster with KESPA.
SC2 has too much tried to be a good esports and not enough just a good game. It was too ambitious in many regards. They wanted to force success with stopping broodwar to happen.
The rock scissors paper system was emphasized too much. The game has become too fast, too quickly decided, too unforgiving. Too many features on units. Too much emphasize on balance details.
Pros are making too much money on streaming and KeSPA are moving their assets towards Overwatch. The best thing we can hope for are more leagues such as ASL, whose next season is just around the corner. I certainly hope AfreecaTV StarLeague actually rises up to the level of a StarLeague someday, would be nice to add a 5th tourney of such caliber to the list of StarCraft events.
in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking.
the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that.
There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games.
If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later."
In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds.
You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics).
The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive.
This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to.
Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner.
I play and watch sc2 because I like the game.
LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set).
RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA.
PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics.
People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me.
But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won."
And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
Man, please don’t go into the « RTS game are for superior people who are more intelligent » thread…
Honestly, what is the point of everything you said ? You can as well jump in ranked game on StarCraft, be absolute trash and blame everything but yourself and be fine with it, how is this a "MOBA thing" to do ? Have you ever watched Avilo ?
You never played a MOBA, and you don’t enjoy that, fine, but, please…
You can do all that you described in that post just the other way around and that’d be fine… In SC2 you can always blame balance instead of your team, that’s the same thing… Ololol MMM too stronk, t1 units beating T3 imba, … you can as well find recomfort in the fact that you were not supply blocked during the whole game while your opponent was, you produced better your workers than he did, …
Truth is, if you want to progress and get better, you have to actually be critical about yourself and the way YOU played. I, since I want to get better, blame a lot my teammates, curses them in my room… But I always watch my replays, try to watch streams and get a better game comprehension and understanding, check how I could have done better at that timing into the game, …
And this is true for any game, not just RTS. If you wanna get better you just have to challenge yourself, to re-evaluate what you did wrong and what you can do better.
But people in SC2 do blame balance. They do blame David, and Browder, and the other Races. They yell that it isn't them who sucks that its the game, the scene. They come to TL to ask why the other two races are too strong, they're told to shut up because thats ridiculous. They're told they need to get better. Now you have a casual that shits on the game, blaming balance. Who shits on the community, for calling him a noob and not agreeing with his theories on why the game is imbalanced. And can't brag to anyone about the few accomplishments he does have.
This is not about RTS players being more intelligent, this is purely aesthetics. There's a reason music videos killed the radio star even when it was the same fucking songs. Because fans of a genre will stick to a genre even when its shitty. New people need a reason to stay.
Also, how *hard* the game is irrelevant to what I am talking about. I'm talking about how the fundamentals of each game is presented differently by said game. That is a different argument than the one you believe I am making. A lot of RTS fundamentals are invisible. That's the point of it. Pylons are not exciting to watch. Neither is making probes. So its all hotkey strokes, finger play, and timings. You don't see something on screen and respond to it when making workers, you simply do it. You don't see something on screen, and reflexively respond to it to make depots, you just keep making depots until you get to your timing (be it an all in, late game macro, etc...) This is different than say in Street Fighter where your footsie game is directly in response to their footsie game. Where your zone control is directly controlling the zone in front of both player's screens. This is different from an FPS where your movement styles, rotations, and spawn zone cycles are physically what is happening in the screen in front of you. None of these are easier than an RTS. How easy or hard it is does not matter in this discussion. Its simply the nature of RTS games.
in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking.
the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that.
There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games.
If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later."
In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds.
You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics).
The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive.
This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to.
Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner.
I play and watch sc2 because I like the game.
LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set).
RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA.
PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics.
People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me.
But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won."
And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
Man, please don’t go into the « RTS game are for superior people who are more intelligent » thread…
Honestly, what is the point of everything you said ? You can as well jump in ranked game on StarCraft, be absolute trash and blame everything but yourself and be fine with it, how is this a "MOBA thing" to do ? Have you ever watched Avilo ?
You never played a MOBA, and you don’t enjoy that, fine, but, please…
You can do all that you described in that post just the other way around and that’d be fine… In SC2 you can always blame balance instead of your team, that’s the same thing… Ololol MMM too stronk, t1 units beating T3 imba, … you can as well find recomfort in the fact that you were not supply blocked during the whole game while your opponent was, you produced better your workers than he did, …
Truth is, if you want to progress and get better, you have to actually be critical about yourself and the way YOU played. I, since I want to get better, blame a lot my teammates, curses them in my room… But I always watch my replays, try to watch streams and get a better game comprehension and understanding, check how I could have done better at that timing into the game, …
And this is true for any game, not just RTS. If you wanna get better you just have to challenge yourself, to re-evaluate what you did wrong and what you can do better.
But people in SC2 do blame balance. They do blame David, and Browder, and the other Races. They yell that it isn't them who sucks that its the game, the scene. They come to TL to ask why the other two races are too strong, they're told to shut up because thats ridiculous. They're told they need to get better. Now you have a casual that shits on the game, blaming balance. Who shits on the community, for calling him a noob and not agreeing with his theories on why the game is imbalanced. And can't brag to anyone about the few accomplishments he does have.
This is not about RTS players being more intelligent, this is purely aesthetics. There's a reason music videos killed the radio star even when it was the same fucking songs. Because fans of a genre will stick to a genre even when its shitty. New people need a reason to stay.
Also, how *hard* the game is irrelevant to what I am talking about. I'm talking about how the fundamentals of each game is presented differently by said game. That is a different argument than the one you believe I am making. A lot of RTS fundamentals are invisible. That's the point of it. Pylons are not exciting to watch. Neither is making probes. So its all hotkey strokes, finger play, and timings. You don't see something on screen and respond to it when making workers, you simply do it. You don't see something on screen, and reflexively respond to it to make depots, you just keep making depots until you get to your timing (be it an all in, late game macro, etc...) This is different than say in Street Fighter where your footsie game is directly in response to their footsie game. Where your zone control is directly controlling the zone in front of both player's screens. This is different from an FPS where your movement styles, rotations, and spawn zone cycles are physically what is happening in the screen in front of you. None of these are easier than an RTS. How easy or hard it is does not matter in this discussion. Its simply the nature of RTS games.
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your point completely.
I get you now, and I fairly agree with you. RTS as a genre is more difficult to make as shiny as FPS or MOBAs.
The problem with sc2 was mainly always that it is a 1v1 game indeed.. i played age of empires conquerors for like 10 years.. and it was never stressful as sc2... , we had an scene" with tournaments , leagues , we had nation cups etc this happened about the same time and a bit after broodwar ..
the 3v3 was the main format , so the expectative to see who would play which map was nice, they had to bench players and most teams had like 10 players that swap accordingly to the map, some players were good in water, others in macro maps etc.. we had positions similar to LoL you had "wings and pockets" so it was fun to play with friends, everyone knew each other , we had chat rooms to make "balanced games" since you could pick who to play with and chat or troll before games,and just meet people..you could even choose who you wanted to play and in which map, i even got to play vs famous players like boxer and just watching boxer or some of the korean pros was really cool in the chat" or channels.. the community had alot of meaning since we really knew each other and styles.
whenever a new league was announced there was a lot of draft going on ,to create star teams and the expectative was awesome as well
maps were randomly generated so you would never have the same map twice.. you could never really prepare like in sc2 , usually 99% of the time the best team or player would win (unless they rolled a terrible map) and also because there is no ramp mechanics.. overcharged pylons.. or anything that stops you from harassing constantly.. making the game more fun overall and less stressing NOT because the harass but because you can lose in 1 second to 1 spell in sc2..
Maps were drastically different too.. you had migration.. which you started in a tiny island and a big one in the center to contest... you had arabia "standard open map ,you had black forest " macro maps" , maps like yucatan that were very open with rivers etc... " nomad where you started with only 1 worker.. etc
the format of tournaments was so great , example" SKT vs KT" in a tournament playoff ,would play like this :
1v1 - bo3 ( ace players) = 1 point 2v2 - = 1 point 3v3 - bo3 = 2 point 4v4 - = 1 point
you are guaranted to see the ace games and bo3... and also brings chances for rookies to show up or swap in certain maps ,3v3 or 4v4
maps wwere completly dark so you would have to explore from 0 every time and find the resources.. that was probably the weakest part of "random generated maps " is that you can get really bad starting resources.. but at tournaments you could remake the game 3 times i believe if you had such maps...
the first thing that really shocked me after playing for so long AOC was that sc2 wasnt a team game.. it was only focused in 1v1.. and i had no experience with broodwar back then, RTS for me were about team games, we also had 1v1 tournaments but people really cared about the team games much more, similar to proleague, because the brands and draft
team games in sc2 are horrible , maps are so tiny.. you usually have to fight with your own allies to take a third.. , in AoC you could build your base anyware.. it didnt had "fixed center location"so you had to design the base yourself from the starting point, making the game more interesting, less boring in the long term i actually think that was the main reason i never got bored of it.. the fact that the maps always change.. so the way a map is played is absolutly diferent from the game before..
i never liked spells in RTS , because it makes the games frustrating and snowbally, that was also why the games after conquerors werent good in this series.. they started adding "fixed base locations" and spells" in age of mythology, but old RTS players prefered open battles with intense micro like broodwar, instead of 2 people hiding in their base for 40min... waiting for the " timing attack" or all in" which makes game boring and repetitive.. even from pro gamers perspective..
in csgo/dota2 there is the instant access to mathmaking.
the sc2 starter edition is nothing like that.
There is also a greater emphasis on PvE in MOBA games.
If you suck, you can load it up against bots and learn to last hit because those minions will always act the same no matter who you face. Same with the jungle mobs same with the towers. You could say "I am shit vs humans but let me learn to do ____ first, and then I can care about beating humans later."
In SC2 you can die just because you don't make a worker every 15-20 seconds.
You can do the same thing in sc2 vs. AI (and you don't die in sc2 because you didn't make one worker, that's not true, every players macro slips at some point, nobody has perfect mechanics).
The point is, sc2 is not a moba, it's an RTS. The reason it's awesome is because you have to multitask, and that is hard. You don't just stare at one character, you have to go back to base and build a worker every 15 sec, and a pylon. For observers, that's not very exciting and they may not even notice, but managing all those moves in a matter of seconds... is extremely impressive.
This is why I started to play, because it was fun... and after I watched DRG stream I was blown away with the amount of information his brain can process and react to.
Watching some guy last hit a minion in comparison to that.. is like watching a baby eat its dinner.
I play and watch sc2 because I like the game.
LOL and DOTA are free so they probably have a higher player base and because of that more people watch. They also have less complex rule sets (imo) at because of that they are easier to understand (csgo, more popular and simple rule set).
RTS was NEVER a popular gaming model, not on the level of FPS or MOBA.
PVE is irrelevant... and in all pro video games people also practice mechanics.
People's tastes in sports changes, there was a time chess was relatively popular, but it is rarely covered anymore.
As someone who loves RTS games, you don't have to preach to me.
But when I talked about PvE in a MOBA, I mean you can literally jump into a ranked match, be absolute shit, but still feel good because you can last hit the minion, because you can clear a jungle pack, because you know when to go in to hit the tower, and when to run out of the tower. In a ranked game, you could go away from where the opposing players are, get a high whatever stat you're maxing out, and when your team loses you can say things like "I held top all by myself" or "I got the most gold" or "I healed the most" followed by "if my team wasn't shit we would have won."
And from a new player perspective, there is comfort in that. That same player does not have that comfort in an RTS. And yes, that is the point of an RTS, but I am biased since I love playing RTS games. Not everyone does.
Man, please don’t go into the « RTS game are for superior people who are more intelligent » thread…
Honestly, what is the point of everything you said ? You can as well jump in ranked game on StarCraft, be absolute trash and blame everything but yourself and be fine with it, how is this a "MOBA thing" to do ? Have you ever watched Avilo ?
You never played a MOBA, and you don’t enjoy that, fine, but, please…
You can do all that you described in that post just the other way around and that’d be fine… In SC2 you can always blame balance instead of your team, that’s the same thing… Ololol MMM too stronk, t1 units beating T3 imba, … you can as well find recomfort in the fact that you were not supply blocked during the whole game while your opponent was, you produced better your workers than he did, …
Truth is, if you want to progress and get better, you have to actually be critical about yourself and the way YOU played. I, since I want to get better, blame a lot my teammates, curses them in my room… But I always watch my replays, try to watch streams and get a better game comprehension and understanding, check how I could have done better at that timing into the game, …
And this is true for any game, not just RTS. If you wanna get better you just have to challenge yourself, to re-evaluate what you did wrong and what you can do better.
But people in SC2 do blame balance. They do blame David, and Browder, and the other Races. They yell that it isn't them who sucks that its the game, the scene. They come to TL to ask why the other two races are too strong, they're told to shut up because thats ridiculous. They're told they need to get better. Now you have a casual that shits on the game, blaming balance. Who shits on the community, for calling him a noob and not agreeing with his theories on why the game is imbalanced. And can't brag to anyone about the few accomplishments he does have.
This is not about RTS players being more intelligent, this is purely aesthetics. There's a reason music videos killed the radio star even when it was the same fucking songs. Because fans of a genre will stick to a genre even when its shitty. New people need a reason to stay.
Also, how *hard* the game is irrelevant to what I am talking about. I'm talking about how the fundamentals of each game is presented differently by said game. That is a different argument than the one you believe I am making. A lot of RTS fundamentals are invisible. That's the point of it. Pylons are not exciting to watch. Neither is making probes. So its all hotkey strokes, finger play, and timings. You don't see something on screen and respond to it when making workers, you simply do it. You don't see something on screen, and reflexively respond to it to make depots, you just keep making depots until you get to your timing (be it an all in, late game macro, etc...) This is different than say in Street Fighter where your footsie game is directly in response to their footsie game. Where your zone control is directly controlling the zone in front of both player's screens. This is different from an FPS where your movement styles, rotations, and spawn zone cycles are physically what is happening in the screen in front of you. None of these are easier than an RTS. How easy or hard it is does not matter in this discussion. Its simply the nature of RTS games.
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood your point completely.
I get you now, and I fairly agree with you. RTS as a genre is more difficult to make as shiny as FPS or MOBAs.
I also really miss the lan setting. Not necessarily playing on LAN, because that's just the worst. But I forgot how fun it was to just stand behind your friend and watch him play, then vice versa. New games today are so good at online play that you can completely cut yourself off from humanity and play non-stop like a mouse on a wheel. At some point it starts feeling like going to the gym more than working out your mind.
On October 21 2016 01:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote: playing on LAN, that's just the worst™
I remember having to carry my tower back and forth to different locations to have Lan Parties. Having to take apart and rebuild my setup everytime we wanted to have non-dial up multiplayer. The worse.
On October 21 2016 01:56 ProMeTheus112 wrote: ok carrying the setup can be pretty tedious I just have such great memories of lan rly miss it
100% miss the LAN experience post setup. Being able to yell at each other, with each other, watching each other's hand placement and talk about it, asking them what part of the screen they were looking at when they did ____ move or saw ____ ambush, etc...
Even little things like watching a replay while eating snacks, or watching two friends play each other in the mini tournament you guys set up. It actually felt like a team environment and not just a skype call.
Please note that this is not intended as a meme, just a profound quote that can be applied to the direction SC2 has taken. I do not blame anyone, I'm just aware of how easy it is to get lost inside a big project and not see the forest for all the trees. It has happened to me many times.
I think for me, it was that LoTV came too late. I never had friends to train with and when LoTV came out I was burnt out on training and all my friends who played SC2 had bailed. It was endlessly frustrating waiting for a dynamic and interesting SC2. BW took about this long to become intricate, so I don't know if blaming blizzard is fair; though I really want to because I'm upset.
This just sucks. I still watch pro matches from time to time to marvel at how amazing starcraft is, I just don't want to play it. I'm an adult now and I have tons of shit I need to do. When I work, its on one of my two businesses. When I want to chill, its with friends. Sc2 and rts in general is hard and demands a tremendous amount of mental attention and any gimmicky way of playing feels lame. Running around in CSGO clicking on heads can be fun and it doesn't drain me the same way, same with Rocket League.
I learned to play rts when I was a young try hard. I think my bad posture, over eager apm, and A.D.D. way of playing the game eventually made it impossible to enjoy in my older age. Pros don't play like that, so maybe I could untrain that? That'd take time and energy though, and I don't have those two things to spare at the moment.
I think the difficulty in finding a good clan enviroment is hard too. It takes a tremendous amount of maturity to lose and be good to your colleagues. In team games, you can high five your team mates and it feels awesome to work together to make insane plays. That's an element I never had in sc2. Team leagues were more accessible in the beginning of sc2, but maybe blizzard could have done more to support a clan system?
On October 21 2016 02:50 H0bgawblin wrote: I think for me, it was that LoTV came too late. I never had friends to train with and when LoTV came out I was burnt out on training and all my friends who played SC2 had bailed. It was endlessly frustrating waiting for a dynamic and interesting SC2. BW took about this long to become intricate, so I don't know if blaming blizzard is fair; though I really want to because I'm upset.
This just sucks. I still watch pro matches from time to time to marvel at how amazing starcraft is, I just don't want to play it. I'm an adult now and I have tons of shit I need to do. When I work, its on one of my two businesses. When I want to chill, its with friends. Sc2 and rts in general is hard and demands a tremendous amount of mental attention and any gimmicky way of playing feels lame. Running around in CSGO clicking on heads can be fun and it doesn't drain me the same way, same with Rocket League.
I learned to play rts when I was a young try hard. I think my bad posture, over eager apm, and A.D.D. way of playing the game eventually made it impossible to enjoy in my older age. Pros don't play like that, so maybe I could untrain that? That'd take time and energy though, and I don't have those two things to spare at the moment.
I think the difficulty in finding a good clan enviroment is hard too. It takes a tremendous amount of maturity to lose and be good to your colleagues. In team games, you can high five your team mates and it feels awesome to work together to make insane plays. That's an element I never had in sc2. Team leagues were more accessible in the beginning of sc2, but maybe blizzard could have done more to support a clan system?
We could still do that here.
For context, Proleague eventually became one of the biggest things in BW for a reason.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/2MbLk7d.jpg)
