EPTOn August 18 2016 21:51 Tuczniak wrote:
*G2A and G2G are probably acronyms you are looking for
*G2A and G2G are probably acronyms you are looking for
Yeah, you're right. Fixed it, thanks!
LotV Design Changes announced - Page 38
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Turb0Sw4g
74 Posts
Yeah, you're right. Fixed it, thanks! | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 18 2016 20:24 Penev wrote: They could just change the Cyclone to do that Variety wise better as well otherwise you'd get too many robots/ too little vehicles imo While they could, I think the warhound looked better imo. Cyclone just looks... Lame to me. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On August 18 2016 14:28 Sapphire.lux wrote: I think a reason for that is that Tempests and Carriers are still only countered by Vikings, so now after you mass so many Vikings they don't become complete dead supply once the air war is over. It's a smart move and it makes them a lot like Goliaths. Yeh I think this is actually a pretty significant buff to mech. However, I still hate Vikings vs Air wars. Much prefer air vs ground. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43771 Posts
I am happy  | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
On August 18 2016 23:43 Salteador Neo wrote: With the new tank dominating the ground war they could also consider nerfing the AG attack of the liberator instead of the AA damage. Lower it from 85 to 77 and maybe add some +20 bonus vs massive or whatever. The only possible way to diffentiate tanks from liberators would indeed be by making one of the units better vs massive units and the other much weaker. As you point out Liberators could deal bonus vs massive and tanks could deal less damage vs massive. Would actually also give terran a better and more fair counter to Ultras. | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
On August 19 2016 00:00 Hider wrote: The only possible way to diffentiate tanks from liberators would indeed be by making one of the units better vs massive units and the other much weaker. As you point out Liberators could deal bonus vs massive and tanks could deal less damage vs massive. Would actually also give terran a better and more fair counter to Ultras. Could be interesting interactions/positioning/etc. to see Libs v. Ultras as long as they didn't just completely melt them. I don't think it is bad though that sometimes units serve the same role. One player might be better with tanks, another better with libs, heck even mines overlap some and some players might prefer that. If all 3 units are good but unique in how to micro and use them then it would be cool to see more players differ in their approach to the game but still be successful. I think ultimately with SC2 having such hard counters it has made it so that variety in general is lacking. I think it is harder for 2 skilled players to take different approaches to solving the same problem. The game would be more enjoyable if there were more avenues to success vs. the same opponent style. At that point things like positioning, timing, and micro are what decide a battle instead of just A beats B so GG. | ||
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Knatterking
Germany405 Posts
So here's my 2 cents: Cyclone While I like the new Cyclone more than the old one, it feels like it is too strong against armored units like Stalkers and Roaches, and shit against anything else (even Zerglings). I think the new attack is a little over the top with the hard counter mechanic. They should rather deal about the same damage to any type of unit, maybe +1 bonus damage against armored, but not even that is necessary, considering that the tank is already dealing a quite decent amount of damage. Siege Tank I like that the Pick-up-while-sieged ability got removed. Can't really argue precisely about the damage output though, maybe it's a little high, but not too much. Liberator and the Thor Meh. While I kind of like that the Liberator's AA got nerfed a little, I still don't see it as a well designed unit with a unique role (there's already the tank for space control). Same thing almost for the Thor, I just like the Goliath way better. Viking It's cool to see the Viking's anti-ground attack buffed, so it's actually kind of useful. However, almost the same applies as for the cyclone, why give it +8 against mechanical instead of just +4 against anything? I've also seen that they 2-shot probes and I don't like it. I really don't think the game needs even more worker harass options. Battlecruiser Nice, but it's really damn strong for sniping a base. Maybe too strong. Also I never really liked the teleport ability... Raven an increase to their damage should give Ravens a bit more firepower in combat, while not adding too much to their ability to harass worker lines. Well, it's certainly stronger now, and that's not a bad thing. But they're also 2-shotting workers right now, which is HUGE in my opinion. And like I said before the game is better off without it. I'm okay with it though as long as it doesn't make worker harass even better. David Kim missed the target on this one. Tempest I don't think the ability is too strong against worker lines. By the time the Protoss has some Tempests to prevent you from mining, you should already have some decent AA out, so it's a huge risk for Protoss to do that play. If you kill his tempests that's actually a bad trade for him. On the other hand it's quite decent against siege units and buildings, so it's also not underpowered. What I don't like in general though, is that they keep adding abilites to units, that just makes everything more complicated and "gimmicky" (yes I'm aware that some of you hate this word). I think it would be better if most units had decently designed attacks, with a few spell caster units mixed in (Ghost, Raven, Infestor. (Queen), Sentry, High Templar). Instead there are just too many units that have abilities that make the game too complex and maybe uncontrollable in the long run. Like someone before me in this thread put it, when trying to balance a ruler on your finger you don't keep adding weights to the ends. I think that describes how I feel about that trend pretty well. Zealot I like the idea of giving the Zealot a place in the game again, haven't tried it out myself yet though. Carrier I like it. Removed an ability here and maybe it will become a decent and more often used unit. Dark Templar I don't get why they made this change. There was absolutely no reason to do so, as the DT is already decent and you have the chance to save them using Warp Prisms. Swarm Host Meh, free units. I never liked the concept of the unit and I was glad when the use of it was going back to being almost non-existent. They should come up with a unit that has decent stats instead, if they don't want to remove units entirely. However I think that even Zerg has enough decent harass options already. Baneling I don't think that was necessary. Bio play is cool to play and watch and I think fights of MMM vs Ling Bane Muta were decently balanced. Now the banelings are harder to kill so that might discourage people to go Bio instead of Mech. Infestor Meh. Another ability added to a unit which already has plenty and then even a Teleport one. I don't think we need this. I like the concept of the Nydus better. Also I think the cast range of the spells are a little high while burrowed. Brood Lord Not my favourite units from the get-go either (spawns free units). Personally I'm fine with the nerf. But bring back the Guardian. Sorry for BW bias  In conclusion: Stop adding new abilities randomly to units, I think it will cause the effect of "gimmicky" play. Also remove free units and design units with decent stats instead. The patch is not crap though, as I see a good trend in some changes: Cyclones, Tanks and Carriers to be specific. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On August 19 2016 00:00 Hider wrote: The only possible way to diffentiate tanks from liberators would indeed be by making one of the units better vs massive units and the other much weaker. As you point out Liberators could deal bonus vs massive and tanks could deal less damage vs massive. Would actually also give terran a better and more fair counter to Ultras. Oh please don't make me have to mass air units to counter also ground! The Lib was made IMO as a zoning tool when they did not intend for the Tank to be fixed/buffed. Let's keep the Lib as a harass tool and a replacement for tanks in bio play, if the Terran bio player does not know how to use tanks .I would have preferred the Lib to be an anti light air unit to give both mech and bio a more mobile response to Mutas and Phoenixes, with the anti ground as a secondary to improve on the valkyrie design. Since that's not going to happen, let there be some overlap between Tanks and Libs, but let's not take away power from the Tank, especially not by promoting air play. EDIT: it's a cool characteristic of bio to add different support units that do similar things but in different ways, Tanks, Libs, Mines. This is cool i think. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9342 Posts
Oh please don't make me have to mass air units to counter also ground! No if the Liberators actually get really good vs Ultras but worse vs other units, you will not mass it. You will only get a few and then the zerg will adjust his composition. Liberators then become more of a reactive unit. For harass purposes, Liberator is extremely boring: Banshee's, Medivacs and Hellions all provide much more skillful and fun harassoptions. Let's keep the liberator as a unit that is strong positionally in some cases and the Tank as the default positional unit (with a few weakness's that the Liberator can cover). | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
New Hydralisk feels so so incredibly strong, I'm the first person to ask for a Hydralisk buff by my God man it SHREDS armies without heavy splash damage. I would prefer the changes to be something like this so Hydralisks can be stronger without being OP. - Revert range buff out of the egg for ground but keep the extra range only against air units - Muscular Augments gives speed boost off creep and maybe +1 armor or + 15 HP, remove the light tag The Hydralisks issue isn't that it doesn't do damage, it does great damage, the problem is two fold, it is very brittle and units that do bonus damage to light evaporate them too quickly, looking specifically at the Phoenix and the Oracle, Hydralisks are supposed to be strong vs air units, but these two air units do bonus damage to light (stupid in my opinion they kill workers fine without it and years later proxy Oracle is still kind of cancer because of how retard fast it kills drones) and nullify the Hydralisk until they hit critical mass. TLDR Removing the light tag is probably one of the best way to buff the Hydra along with either +1 armor or + 15 HP, it does need the extra range vs air units, but definitely not vs ground units, it's just overpowered they shred everything hard. The Tempest change is cool but it lasts forever, feels way too overpowered, the Disruption Field thing is awesome but the duration is terrible (I know the duration was probably gonna get reduced anyways) The Raven is just overpowered now, you can start massing tanks, liberators, and Ravens and pretty much nothing is safe, especially worker lines. Drop 6 + turrets in a base and that base is dead. Why can't they make the Raven good without making it a total cancer unit? This game doesn't need another unit that can decimate worker lines, it has far too much of it already. Havent seen any blink Templars Cyclones are hilariously overpowered when coupled with Hellions in a 2 base all in but really kind of suck ass otherwise Haven't built a Swarm Host because well, why the hell would I? The unit just needs to be scrapped or totally redesigned, screw the cost, it's too much supply for a unit that attacks once a minute. Haven't seen any BC's New Zealots are absolutely terrifying, I wish they just moved faster right out of the gate though so that the MSC could be removed and we could move towards Protoss late game being toned down and beefing up Gateway units as a whole, sadly we all know that Kim doesn't have the stomach for any more major Protoss design changes. Havent seen Thors Tanks are fantastically powerful against Zerg now, but I like it, they should be strong, they require alot of micro and multitask to be used correctly it's not just an a move unit. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
Can't overstate how excited I am for the tank changes. | ||
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AlphaAeffchen
110 Posts
in general i like the changes (well there has to be some tweaking but thats ok). The only thing i dont like is that the swarmhost is still not completley redisigned or gets replaced by another unit. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Tanks feel like tanks again. Removing flying tanks and increasing their damage is the best change in the test map. If this was the only change that got implemented to the live game I would be fine with that. Carriers Removing the release interceptor ability was necessary since that ability was to strong. Decreasing interceptor cost is the wrong move. Carriers are already too strong against mech. Vikings get massacred by Carriers + HT/Archons Thors get defeated by Carriers + any ground unit Widow mines worked to some degree since it could kill the interceptors but now when interceptors are almost free not even widow mines work anymore. Thors Increasing Thor splash slightly is a good move but I think it would be better to increase Thor amour by 1. Then Thor could actually trade against Carriers. Cyclones Mech already have an interesting anti-armor unit in the improved siege tank. A mech marauder is the last thing this game needs. Instead redesign the cyclone so that is fast, good against air and mediocre against ground. That way cyclones can support mech in a way that is needed instead of filling a role that is already filled by a more interesting unit. Tempest Increasing supply was necessary. Decreasing ground range and then giving the unit a slow psi storm is a bad idea. The unit still prevents you from even trying to use tanks since tanks that cannot be in siege mode are useless. The only effect is making Tempest weaker against bio which is unnecessary since Tempest were never too strong against bio, just too supply efficient. The old Tempest prevented you from playing mech. The new Tempest do the same thing but in another way. The difference is that new Tempest is also broken against mineral lines. Battlecruiser The changes are good but they will still not be useful against Protoss or Zerg. Protoss due to Tempest hard countering BCs, Zerg due to Vipers hard countering BCs. There will still be no point in building BCs outside of TvT. Increasing the attack but lowering the ROF would solve some of the problems with the unit. Swarm Host This unit is now completely broken again. It basically makes it so you can never build tanks and are forced to use bio or to mass 40+ widow mine and hope to get lucky. Swarm host games have already damaged Starcraft so much, please do not bring them back. Raven Raven is already a good unit. The improved auto-turret makes mass Ravens broken again. I want to play mech, not mass Ravens against mass Swarm hosts. DT with Blink Unnecessary change. DT are already a good unit; it is not necessary to improve worker killing even more. This game needs less worker killers, not more. | ||
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Beelzebub1
1004 Posts
On August 19 2016 05:25 MockHamill wrote: Tanks Tanks feel like tanks again. Removing flying tanks and increasing their damage is the best change in the test map. If this was the only change that got implemented to the live game I would be fine with that. Carriers Removing the release interceptor ability was necessary since that ability was to strong. Decreasing interceptor cost is the wrong move. Carriers are already too strong against mech. Vikings get massacred by Carriers + HT/Archons Thors get defeated by Carriers + any ground unit Widow mines worked to some degree since it could kill the interceptors but now when interceptors are almost free not even widow mines work anymore. Thors Increasing Thor splash slightly is a good move but I think it would be better to increase Thor amour by 1. Then Thor could actually trade against Carriers. Cyclones Mech already have an interesting anti-armor unit in the improved siege tank. A mech marauder is the last thing this game needs. Instead redesign the cyclone so that is fast, good against air and mediocre against ground. That way cyclones can support mech in a way that is needed instead of filling a role that is already filled by a more interesting unit. Tempest Increasing supply was necessary. Decreasing ground range and then giving the unit a slow psi storm is a bad idea. The unit still prevents you from even trying to use tanks since tanks that cannot be in siege mode are useless. The only effect is making Tempest weaker against bio which is unnecessary since Tempest were never too strong against bio, just too supply efficient. The old Tempest prevented you from playing mech. The new Tempest do the same thing but in another way. The difference is that new Tempest is also broken against mineral lines. Battlecruiser The changes are good but they will still not be useful against Protoss or Zerg. Protoss due to Tempest hard countering BCs, Zerg due to Vipers hard countering BCs. There will still be no point in building BCs outside of TvT. Increasing the attack but lowering the ROF would solve some of the problems with the unit. Swarm Host This unit is now completely broken again. It basically makes it so you can never build tanks and are forced to use bio or to mass 40+ widow mine and hope to get lucky. Swarm host games have already damaged Starcraft so much, please do not bring them back. Raven Raven is already a good unit. The improved auto-turret makes mass Ravens broken again. I want to play mech, not mass Ravens against mass Swarm hosts. DT with Blink Unnecessary change. DT are already a good unit; it is not necessary to improve worker killing even more. This game needs less worker killers, not more. I agree with all of this, love your summary of what the Cyclone should be, I like the big moves the balance team is making but I think this shows that they are still all these years later, people that are watching the game and not playing it themselves so their views of design and balance hinge on very high level of play only. Mass Raven will suck ass vs someone like Dark with top micro, but it will suck to be Zerg against ladder Terrans going mass Raven, vice versa with Swarm Hosts (worst designed unit in the history of both Starcrafts imo) | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
If that was the case, many other units don't need buffs because they're already good. Just because a unit is in a good state, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a buff. In the long list of units being re-designed, I agree that DT should be the last item. However, it could still use some love. Currently, DTs are suicide mineral harass units. Sure their survival goes up when comped with the prism, but I feel DT should be the commando units. They should go in alone and do as much damage as possible, without any support. Also, shutting down DT is quite easy. Unless the Shrine is hidden, it shouldn't be hard for the opponent to scout a shrine and be prepared. Once an opponent is prepared for DT, they are practically useless, aside from morphing into Archons. If DT were given the exact same blink as stalkers, then that would be OP as fuck. I think a new iteration of blink for DT could make them viable. As I said before, perhaps a channeled blink that takes 3 seconds. If damage occurs during the 3 sec, the blink is canceled. As well, a much longer cooldown than Stalkers blink. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
On August 19 2016 05:39 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I've seen a lot of people against DT with blink for various reasons, but one reason I keep reading is the "DT already good, don't need buff". I feel this isn't a good enough reason. If that was the case, many other units don't need buffs because they're already good. Just because a unit is in a good state, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve a buff. In the long list of units being re-designed, I agree that DT should be the last item. However, it could still use some love. Currently, DTs are suicide mineral harass units. Sure their survival goes up when comped with the prism, but I feel DT should be the commando units. They should go in alone and do as much damage as possible, without any support. Also, shutting down DT is quite easy. Unless the Shrine is hidden, it shouldn't be hard for the opponent to scout a shrine and be prepared. Once an opponent is prepared for DT, they are practically useless, aside from morphing into Archons. If DT were given the exact same blink as stalkers, then that would be OP as fuck. I think a new iteration of blink for DT could make them viable. As I said before, perhaps a channeled blink that takes 3 seconds. If damage occurs during the 3 sec, the blink is canceled. As well, a much longer cooldown than Stalkers blink. DTs do too much damage, damage needs to be nerfed | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On August 19 2016 07:43 Loccstana wrote: DTs do too much damage, damage needs to be nerfed Well if they do get a blink ability, I don't mind if they get a nerf to damage or health. | ||
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