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On August 19 2016 13:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
the same thing happened in broodwar where people would use the same build for a year straight, then someone came up with a new way of playing and everybody followed.... the broodlord/infestor era lasted a few months... and then expansion came out So you can't say for certain either. Perhaps someone would have broken the broodlord/infestor meta given more time, but we will never know. Regardless, the point of my discussion with TT1 is that we want different things from SC2. I'm not going to get into another discussion about the state of SC2 at the end of WoL.
I haven't made a snark post for a while. Here goes:
You won't discuss it because everyone knows zerg at the end of WoL was pants-on-head retarded.
www.team-ldlc.com
After the 5 range queen patch the only thing zergs needed to worry about was the soul train and zvz. From time to time a terran or protoss would find a cool new way to damage the zerg before they reached 80 drones, but that timing or strategy would simply be incorporated into the zerg knowledge base and a prescripted response would be developed within a couple of weeks. Didn't matter if you were bomber with the 2-2 mass marine tank timing at 13:00, or oz with the wonky fast third nexus on daybreak. Zergs were figuring out how to deal with everything and then eventually get to mass infestor broodlord.
5 years and counting and I still think the queen 5 range patch was the single worst update to sc2. Early attacks was stopped mostly by queens, then mid-game attacks were useless because zerg would have 60 drones to the terrans 40-50 and know the predetermined timing to start making units to crush the wave. Then they'd have one more larva cycle and be at 80 drones, with the terran army destroyed. If terran managed to destroy the fourth with their timing it would usually be a much more interesting game but even then zerg could slowly add infestors to critical mass as opposed to making 20 at once and ending it earlier.
I STILL get upset when an unloaded dropship is stopped by 4 queens.
edit: some people may disagree with my analysis of the imbalanced queens, but everyone who says zerg wasnt stupidly imbalanced at the end of wol is a flat-earther in my mind.
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On August 19 2016 13:44 Thaniri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 13:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On August 19 2016 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
the same thing happened in broodwar where people would use the same build for a year straight, then someone came up with a new way of playing and everybody followed.... the broodlord/infestor era lasted a few months... and then expansion came out So you can't say for certain either. Perhaps someone would have broken the broodlord/infestor meta given more time, but we will never know. Regardless, the point of my discussion with TT1 is that we want different things from SC2. I'm not going to get into another discussion about the state of SC2 at the end of WoL. I haven't made a snark post for a while. Here goes: You won't discuss it because everyone knows zerg at the end of WoL was pants-on-head retarded. www.team-ldlc.comAfter the 5 range queen patch the only thing zergs needed to worry about was the soul train and zvz. From time to time a terran or protoss would find a cool new way to damage the zerg before they reached 80 drones, but that timing or strategy would simply be incorporated into the zerg knowledge base and a prescripted response would be developed within a couple of weeks. Didn't matter if you were bomber with the 2-2 mass marine tank timing at 13:00, or oz with the wonky fast third nexus on daybreak. Zergs were figuring out how to deal with everything and then eventually get to mass infestor broodlord. 5 years and counting and I still think the queen 5 range patch was the single worst update to sc2. Early attacks was stopped mostly by queens, then mid-game attacks were useless because zerg would have 60 drones to the terrans 40-50 and know the predetermined timing to start making units to crush the wave. Then they'd have one more larva cycle and be at 80 drones, with the terran army destroyed. If terran managed to destroy the fourth with their timing it would usually be a much more interesting game but even then zerg could slowly add infestors to critical mass as opposed to making 20 at once and ending it earlier. I STILL get upset when an unloaded dropship is stopped by 4 queens. edit: some people may disagree with my analysis of the imbalanced queens, but everyone who says zerg wasnt stupidly imbalanced at the end of wol is a flat-earther in my mind.
While the end of WOl with bl/corr/infestor was obviously overpowered, all the races have had their period. Terran dominated for the longest time to where GSL was literally called GOMTvT. Everyone has had to deal with bullshit. I don't think that was the worst change, I think the worst change that Blizzard ever did was refuse to nerf Bl/corr/infestor and buff zerg to compensate until hots. Even if bl/corr/infestor was balanced, it still should have been nerfed and Zerg buffed in a different area.
But that was a long time ago and has nothing to do with these new design changes now.
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The main issue with queens, and MSC in some regard, is about the "how much at home?" syndrome.
Lemme explain.
When protoss pushes out, or goes for a drop, he only has to keep a MSC at home to summon 4 immobile thors on his pylons. A single unit left at home does that.
When zerg pushes out, and even with F2, he has queens at home, that deal with most early agressions quite easily.
Terran, on the other hand, can't do that : if you leave home with a mine drop and an oracle comes in, you have no defensive unit that "counter most agressions".
That the main issues, i think : "how much do i leave at home?" and "how early and how snowbally is my defensive unit(s)?" For protoss it's easy, just leave the MSCore and warp if you get backstabbed. You have MSC early, and defensive warp snowballs throughout the game. For zerg, just have your queens in a control group and amove on the minimap if a minedrop/adept drop comes in, and the more queens you have the better your defense is;
Terran doesn't have a unit/units that are excellent polyvalent defensive units. If the raven was able to transform terran supplies into defensive structures (this is not a proposition, it'd be terrible), terran would build a defensive raven and push with other units much more freely.
However the design of a defensive unit(s) that's so accessible and, by gaining energy, gets better and better at dealing with agressions is terrible. Terran can't have such a unit because most terrans units are very good at defending : however, you don't have the easy choice protoss or zerg have, where defensive at-home units are very easy to identify.
I'm not complaining terran doesn 't have such a unit, i'm just saddened that protoss and zerg do because it prevent agression by doing the same defensive mandatory stuff every single game. And seeing your drop getting killed by 4 queens or your oracle destroyed by 2 POs is just sad to play and watch.
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On August 19 2016 14:01 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 13:44 Thaniri wrote:On August 19 2016 13:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On August 19 2016 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
the same thing happened in broodwar where people would use the same build for a year straight, then someone came up with a new way of playing and everybody followed.... the broodlord/infestor era lasted a few months... and then expansion came out So you can't say for certain either. Perhaps someone would have broken the broodlord/infestor meta given more time, but we will never know. Regardless, the point of my discussion with TT1 is that we want different things from SC2. I'm not going to get into another discussion about the state of SC2 at the end of WoL. I haven't made a snark post for a while. Here goes: You won't discuss it because everyone knows zerg at the end of WoL was pants-on-head retarded. www.team-ldlc.comAfter the 5 range queen patch the only thing zergs needed to worry about was the soul train and zvz. From time to time a terran or protoss would find a cool new way to damage the zerg before they reached 80 drones, but that timing or strategy would simply be incorporated into the zerg knowledge base and a prescripted response would be developed within a couple of weeks. Didn't matter if you were bomber with the 2-2 mass marine tank timing at 13:00, or oz with the wonky fast third nexus on daybreak. Zergs were figuring out how to deal with everything and then eventually get to mass infestor broodlord. 5 years and counting and I still think the queen 5 range patch was the single worst update to sc2. Early attacks was stopped mostly by queens, then mid-game attacks were useless because zerg would have 60 drones to the terrans 40-50 and know the predetermined timing to start making units to crush the wave. Then they'd have one more larva cycle and be at 80 drones, with the terran army destroyed. If terran managed to destroy the fourth with their timing it would usually be a much more interesting game but even then zerg could slowly add infestors to critical mass as opposed to making 20 at once and ending it earlier. I STILL get upset when an unloaded dropship is stopped by 4 queens. edit: some people may disagree with my analysis of the imbalanced queens, but everyone who says zerg wasnt stupidly imbalanced at the end of wol is a flat-earther in my mind. While the end of WOl with bl/corr/infestor was obviously overpowered, all the races have had their period. Terran dominated for the longest time to where GSL was literally called GOMTvT. Everyone has had to deal with bullshit. I don't think that was the worst change, I think the worst change that Blizzard ever did was refuse to nerf Bl/corr/infestor and buff zerg to compensate until hots. Even if bl/corr/infestor was balanced, it still should have been nerfed and Zerg buffed in a different area. But that was a long time ago and has nothing to do with these new design changes now.
Which is why I didn't want to get into that discussion. Although I don't recall Protoss having their time in the sun. Sure in Hots there was a lot of bullshit, but WoL was generally abysmal for Protoss aside from specific timings that MC liked to abuse to great effect.
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The reason I decided to post that is to whine about queens more than anything. I don't think infestor broodlord for TvZ would be all that bad if zerg was vulnerable in the first 12 minutes of the game.
I would undo that range change even today, but removing medanks from the game brings me a lot of joy and I should not be greedy.
+ Show Spoiler +
I remember gomtvt as well, but I was just discovering esports at that time so I lacked the wisdom to fully grasp how stupid it was. I mean we had boxer and mma. Even if their strats were OP they were exciting. It probably also helped that TvT was by FAR the most enjoyable mirror to watch/play. Everyone hated pvp/zvz.
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On August 19 2016 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
the same thing happened in broodwar where people would use the same build for a year straight, then someone came up with a new way of playing and everybody followed.... the broodlord/infestor era lasted a few months... and then expansion came out
There was a significant difference between how the BW builds played out and how the BL/Infestor build played out, though.
The BW builds tended to be devastatingly strong for one of three reasons:
1. They hit an aggressive timing
2. They hit a greedy timing
3. They took advantage of a given map to do 1 or 2
What happened to mix up the BW builds, then, was:
1. Bisu, iloveoov, or Jaedong figured out a build to hold the timing
2. Bisu, iloveoov, or Jaedong figured out a build to punish the greed
3. The map rotated out
As for specific examples of all these:
1. Jaedong's adjusted 3hatch build against Neo Bisu Build
2. Bisu Build against sAviOr's super-greedy expansion play
3. Katrina rotating out, making 2base Carrier more or less obsolete
So, then, BL/Infestor was an example of 2. It was established pretty quickly that there was no way of beating it once you got into lategame, with the exceptions of the Archon toilet (which was swiftly countered by baiting the Protoss) and mass Ghost (which was immediately nerfed out of existence). Therefore, the only answer was a timing attack. Soul Train did that pretty well, but it wasn't 100% (and it answered other Zerg game plans just as well, meaning it wasn't even an answer to BL/Infestor). Terran had nothing, and Protoss didn't have anything outside of a generalized timing attack that was still best answered by BL/Infestor.
The reason why BL/Infestor was so crazy was twofold. First, it was the ultimate in lategame, with no progress available for either player after that point. It was basically the equivalent of playing What-If-I-Had-Infinite-Science-Vessels in BW TvZ, only more gross. BL/Infestor generated as much unit advantage as you pleased for as long as you liked, and since no units could properly engage with them, there was no proper answer. Spine/Spore Crawlers and the instant remax potential made things even worse: the Zerg could effectively go far over 200/200, and there was no way of stopping it.
The next part of the problem was Zerg's ironclad defenses. The reason why those defenses were so good was the Queen. Queens meant that a Zerg no longer had to choose between economy and defense: the Queen did both better than anything else! So long as you had enough Queens, you'd have as many larva and Drones as you needed, and your opponent would have no way to safely harass. Preparing for a timing attack took no clever build adjustment, because all you had to do was make sure you had the right tech building ready and pause on Drone production for as long as you needed. As for scouting the build and the attack? Zerglings, Overlords, and creep spread meant you could never be caught off-guard.
So yeah, that's what was wrong. The only way that BL/Infestor was going to be countered was by finding a timing that countered literally everything Zerg could ever do. It was pretty obvious that was never going to happen, and if it somehow did, Zerg would then never be able to win the game. As a matter of fact, that did happen once in SC2 history, with 5rax Reaper being literally impossible for Zerg to counter (they kited and killed every Zerg unit available at that stage and could run around static defenses). There's only been one BW build ever to look that strong, and it's one currently being used: Late Mech in TvZ. Flexible Terran openers make it next to impossible for Zerg to be aggressive and punish, and then the lategame composition can't be properly answered. Sound familiar?
In any case, I guess this is a roundabout way of saying: yeah, sometimes we can see very easily that there isn't ever going to be a counter.
On August 19 2016 14:07 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 14:01 blade55555 wrote:On August 19 2016 13:44 Thaniri wrote:On August 19 2016 13:31 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:On August 19 2016 13:26 ROOTFayth wrote:
the same thing happened in broodwar where people would use the same build for a year straight, then someone came up with a new way of playing and everybody followed.... the broodlord/infestor era lasted a few months... and then expansion came out So you can't say for certain either. Perhaps someone would have broken the broodlord/infestor meta given more time, but we will never know. Regardless, the point of my discussion with TT1 is that we want different things from SC2. I'm not going to get into another discussion about the state of SC2 at the end of WoL. I haven't made a snark post for a while. Here goes: You won't discuss it because everyone knows zerg at the end of WoL was pants-on-head retarded. www.team-ldlc.comAfter the 5 range queen patch the only thing zergs needed to worry about was the soul train and zvz. From time to time a terran or protoss would find a cool new way to damage the zerg before they reached 80 drones, but that timing or strategy would simply be incorporated into the zerg knowledge base and a prescripted response would be developed within a couple of weeks. Didn't matter if you were bomber with the 2-2 mass marine tank timing at 13:00, or oz with the wonky fast third nexus on daybreak. Zergs were figuring out how to deal with everything and then eventually get to mass infestor broodlord. 5 years and counting and I still think the queen 5 range patch was the single worst update to sc2. Early attacks was stopped mostly by queens, then mid-game attacks were useless because zerg would have 60 drones to the terrans 40-50 and know the predetermined timing to start making units to crush the wave. Then they'd have one more larva cycle and be at 80 drones, with the terran army destroyed. If terran managed to destroy the fourth with their timing it would usually be a much more interesting game but even then zerg could slowly add infestors to critical mass as opposed to making 20 at once and ending it earlier. I STILL get upset when an unloaded dropship is stopped by 4 queens. edit: some people may disagree with my analysis of the imbalanced queens, but everyone who says zerg wasnt stupidly imbalanced at the end of wol is a flat-earther in my mind. While the end of WOl with bl/corr/infestor was obviously overpowered, all the races have had their period. Terran dominated for the longest time to where GSL was literally called GOMTvT. Everyone has had to deal with bullshit. I don't think that was the worst change, I think the worst change that Blizzard ever did was refuse to nerf Bl/corr/infestor and buff zerg to compensate until hots. Even if bl/corr/infestor was balanced, it still should have been nerfed and Zerg buffed in a different area. But that was a long time ago and has nothing to do with these new design changes now. Which is why I didn't want to get into that discussion. Although I don't recall Protoss having their time in the sun. Sure in Hots there was a lot of bullshit, but WoL was generally abysmal for Protoss aside from specific timings that MC liked to abuse to great effect.
Protoss had a few moments, usually when a new timing attack or method of fast expanding was figured out. They never lasted, though, and I think it all comes down to SC2 having some pretty major design flaws right down to the core which proceeded to spread out from there. The macro mechanics coming so early, Warp Gate showing up at t1.5, addon swapping, unit collision size, Forcefields, the Roach... those problems just snowballed out of control.
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In the end, these changes are a huge step in the right direction, though I explained how much the Siege Tank needed a buff... at the start of the HOTS Beta...
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2-hots/378373-how-to-make-mech-and-stargate-play-viable\
The power of Mech should not come from the Widow Mine, it should come from the Siege Tank. The Siege Tank should hit hard, not the Widow Mine. If Siege Tanks do enough damage then Mech will work. If they don't, then we'll constantly be looking for something that will do big damage and that we can combine with Siege Tanks so we can say "See Siege Tanks work when you use them with X!" X being the very hard hitting Warhound that was removed or Widow Mine. And in both cases, the Widow Mine and Warhound are better used alone or with other Terran play styles, than in conjunction with Siege Tanks in TvP.
It is fun to quote yourself... and right now X is the Liberator.
So all of this just feels like way too little, way too late. I don't get it, why didn't they see that at the end of WOL? The Siege Tank was so strong at the start of the WOL... but then they nerfed it before they decided to make maps massive, and it never recieved a change... it died on the vine due to huge maps. And we've known that for years.
And I know exactly where all this is going now too... the Viper has to be nerfed. It has to be, it is way too strong versus positional units. Abduct and Blinding Cloud are most powerful against immobile units. Just give it sometime, Terrans will look great until the Viper clicks right through their formations, it is a harder counter than Immortals were to me (and to toot my own horn again, I said hardened shields needed to be removed in that post too, and that only took them until LOTV...).
Sadly, Blizzard can't see this because they literally don't understand basic game design. So I'll make sure to cite this post in a year or two when the Viper gets nerfed because it is trashing Mech.
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I've been playing random for fun.
2 base low econ swarmhost play feels viable and fun against terran if they don't open banshee. There is a legit low-econ, not all-in option for zerg and that excites me.
Battlecruisers are really fun to use.
Protoss changes are meh. New Tempest ability is very strong, but kind of clunky.
That is all.
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Interesting perspective, TT1. For the sake of argument, like, when we say "spells" do we specifically means active ones you need to cast for something to happen (unlike medic heal,) ? Or are we including all special effects on attack effects like splash from reavers and firebat, swarm host bullshit, and all that jazz?
I might be down for less spells overall, but they'd have to be different ones, I don't think I would be a fan of playing with the WoL kit of spells for years on end.
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On August 19 2016 15:40 lestye wrote:
Interesting perspective, TT1. For the sake of argument, like, when we say "spells" do we specifically means active ones you need to cast for something to happen (unlike medic heal,) ? Or are we including all special effects on attack effects like splash from reavers and firebat, swarm host bullshit, and all that jazz?
I might be down for less spells overall, but they'd have to be different ones, I don't think I would be a fan of playing with the WoL kit of spells for years on end.
Activatable abilities such as the voidray charge, turning an oracle on/off, revelation, laying a stasis mine, forcefield, adept shade, disruptor shots, the immortal barrier, storm, blink, hallucination, guardian shield, graviton beam (phoenix lift), timewarp, the future tempest ability, dt blink.. see what i mean? And that's just for protoss.
I'm not saying unit abilities are a bad thing.. they just have to be sprinkled in, they're not supposed to overpower a game.
For example, in BW you had zealots/goons/archons/hts as your main army comp vs zerg, the only unit in that mix that has an ability (which is micro based) is the templar (storm). The interaction between lurkers and how protoss had to engage them created micro tho. Zerg didn't have any micro based ability until the lategame when they got defilers out, the micro element for them was how well they could dodge against storms.
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Although I agree with TT1, the macro mechanics of SC:BW are not really needed.
They did well for that time and that game, but if you look at W3:FT they have mass building selections, worker rallies and people tend to make like 3 groups of units.
Yet the game is still good and a lot of things are going on. Just watch some W3 from Grubby on the weekends(he is gone until end of august however) or Happy is pretty good too.
SC2 is a design fail and continues to spiral downwards with every big balance patch:
People use mass of some unit => Blizzard no like, Blizzard remove from game.
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I also agree with TT1, during LotV beta they tried some economy changes for LotV that were supposed to slow down unit production a bit and make managing economy less irritating and they gave up on it. I gave up on LotV at that point. After that it got even more insane, maybe it is more fun to watch, but it is not fun to play.
What I will be doing instead is get and play Broodwar HD and probably even try it online after 15 years
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Something I think is interesting .. what if there were units or buildings that require a certain iteration of a building or unit to acquire. e.g. requirement 4 barracks. Or units that combine similarly to archons but on a larger scale. There were buildings in Sim City that took forever before you could even have the choice build one as your economy grew to a very large scale. For me, that seems like a nice late-game touch.
I also feel that the adept would be more attractive if their attack somehow related to their shade ability.
or the ravager being more like a spine crawler that attacks air as well but that can miss the way corrosive biles may
Anyways, this is a fun process. Keep up the good work
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Both wol and lotv have great vision of how sc2 should be, though they are both completely different. For me hots was the worst and suffered from severe identity crisis. It was like the worst from both worlds.
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So what about increasing workers hp?
I've read so many posts in TL of people complaning about worker lines being gone in a matter of seconds. I can imagine many ragequitting the game and some of them even uninstalling it because of widow mines clearing mineral lines without even a warning. Not everyone can have great map awareness.
Since the list of main harassment offenders was already long enough before, and they are now adding vikings, ravens and tempests too... Why not just let those units be, and instead increase the hp of all workers (maybe add 1 armor even?) so they don't get rekt so fast.
Could also change widow mines to not be able to target workers while they are at it 
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This Cyclone is F****** retarded. I Dont know how to play vs Terran Mech as Protoss!
They go Hellion & Cyclone (Push) or Trade units (Stalkers get REKT so hard by Cyclones and Hellions Kill my Zealtos/Adepts if i hold a banshee comes in to finish me off (cause no or few Stalkers)
Any Ideas?
edit: this is all before i can get enough either Stargate units (Phoenix/Voids) or Robo (i have like 1-2ish Immortals)
So after playing a few more games vs Mech i can Say Phoenix is the best opener if they lack Missle turrets Terran gets rekt and if they move out i can scout it easy. And go into more Stargates and Skytoss Tempest Are okish but i prefer newer Carrier now
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4713 Posts
On August 19 2016 11:57 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 11:44 TT1 wrote:
SC2 failed because theres too much shit going on in the game, theres way too many units and way too many abilities. WoL was the most successful version of the game because it was simple, there were fewer units, fewer activatable abilities etc. These future changes follow the same balance philosophy, don't expect anything to change.
If they really wanted to fix the game they'd have to do something about warpprism warpins (maybe even warpins in general), speedvacs etc. The pace of the game needs to be slowed down, theres alot of different ways that could be achieved. Here is my interpretation: I want SC2 with less stuff going on, less units to manage, and less abilities. I think WoL was successful because it was not complicated. I want it to be easier. Its too fast to play. I can't adapt to change. I'm not being rude, and I respect your opinion, but when I read your comment it feels like you want the game to be easier. I have to totally disagree with you. SC2 should be harder. There should be units with great impact to the game. There should be abilities that are meaningful and fun to use. It should stretch your ability to manage and pay attention to everything on the map. Reaching the skill ceiling should be incredibly difficult, nay near impossible. I feel this will result in exciting battles with awesome comebacks. Of course this is coming from a spectator. I would imagine from a pro player this is not something to look forward to. Akin to if NFL decided the field should be 200 yards long.
Except its the wrong kind of hard and it spews into volatility.
When you have so much freely available damage the game stops becoming a game about who can consistently control his units best and more about who doesn't have a 1 second lapse in concentration that leads to the loss of his game.
Its not normal for entire economies or armies to be vaporized in seconds, it makes the game too volatile. Slowing down the game by reducing damage numbers in some way will actually benefit the game because:
1st The better player will lose less in those small intervals where their concentration falters.
2nd The better player will have less of those moments of inattention.
3rd The better player, will have more time to recover in the long run.
Adding more abilities to all units is also not a very interesting way to make the game harder, it just promotes more spamming on the units itself instead of more interesting micro like pulling back weakened units, splitting, stutter-stepping, dodging etc.
I agree that the game should be hard, but this isn't the right way to do it.
Edit: And don't tell me the pros don't have lapses in concentration and moments where they make mistakes, that's not a valid argument since they are still humans, they make mistakes, everyone makes mistakes.
And as proof when a mistake happens at the pro level and its expertly punished we get those sort of games that end anticlimactically after one major battle or successful harass.
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On August 19 2016 18:45 WhosQuany wrote:
This Cyclone is F****** retarded. I Dont know how to play vs Terran Mech as Protoss!
They go Hellion & Cyclone (Push) or Trade units (Stalkers get REKT so hard by Cyclones and Hellions Kill my Zealtos/Adepts if i hold a banshee comes in to finish me off (cause no or few Stalkers)
Any Ideas?
edit: this is all before i can get enough either Stargate units (Phoenix/Voids) or Robo (i have like 1-2ish Immortals)
1 base 5 gate 2/3 adept or zealot to tank and stalker ( you micro them when they get target )
and or siege the terran early with photon or overcharge to force a tank.
On the other mater
As a plat I like the fast pace of the game, and the worker vulnerability, it force me to always be map aware, to improve builds, improve timings, improve base design, have good scout.
I dont mind loosing because [Im greedy or uncarefull. ( and I dont mind short game )
It force mind game and multi front.
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On August 19 2016 14:11 Thaniri wrote:
The reason I decided to post that is to whine about queens more than anything. I don't think infestor broodlord for TvZ would be all that bad if zerg was vulnerable in the first 12 minutes of the game. This is classical "don't let they get there" which is terrible game design. The game should be winnable at all points. The queen patch was necessary. It was necessary for zerg to be able compete in midgame. Whether the game continued in fun way or turtling is completely unrelated to the patch. If zerg didn't have unbeatable lategame and had strong midgame, the queen patch would called good. It's funny that some people still consider queen the cause.
Btw good points TT1 and Destruction.
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On August 19 2016 21:13 Wohodix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2016 18:45 WhosQuany wrote:
This Cyclone is F****** retarded. I Dont know how to play vs Terran Mech as Protoss!
They go Hellion & Cyclone (Push) or Trade units (Stalkers get REKT so hard by Cyclones and Hellions Kill my Zealtos/Adepts if i hold a banshee comes in to finish me off (cause no or few Stalkers)
Any Ideas?
edit: this is all before i can get enough either Stargate units (Phoenix/Voids) or Robo (i have like 1-2ish Immortals) 1 base 5 gate 2/3 adept or zealot to tank and stalker ( you micro them when they get target ) and or siege the terran early with photon or overcharge to force a tank. On the other mater As a plat I like the fast pace of the game, and the worker vulnerability, it force me to always be map aware, to improve builds, improve timings, improve base design, have good scout. I dont mind loosing because [Im greedy or uncarefull. ( and I dont mind short game ) It force mind game and multi front.
so you pressure the terran with Pylon at ramp?
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EPT
