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Active: 13042 users

LotV Design Changes announced

Forum Index > SC2 General
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pieroog
Profile Joined June 2010
Poland146 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-18 14:31:36
August 14 2016 16:34 GMT
#1
Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20241474/legacy-of-the-void-multiplayer-design-changes-8-14-2016


StarCraft II: Legacy of the Void brought with it the most significant overhaul to Multiplayer we’ve seen in StarCraft II’s history. With this overhaul came many improvements; additional depth for those looking to master the game, and games now play out in incredibly unique ways regardless of what may happen in the first few minutes.

Nevertheless, we believe we can make StarCraft II an even more enjoyable and competitive game experience and would like to explore a series of major changes to bring about these improvements. We intend for these changes to receive significantly more testing than the ‘Test Maps’ which we’ve done in the past, both because of the significance of the changes themselves, and also due to improvements we are making which we will discuss in greater detail below.

In order to provide ample time for a comprehensive period of testing, feedback, and revision, we would like to release these changes at the conclusion of this year’s tournament season in November. In the sections below, we’ve outlined the changes we are excited to explore in detail and provided the motivating factors behind them.




For Terran, our primary focus is on improving the viability of Factory unit armies—popularly known as ‘Mech’ compositions. While the resource changes in Legacy of the Void have been working great overall, they did have a unique effect on the effectiveness of Mech play. Outside of very specific maps (such as Dusk Towers) it has been challenging for players to go Mech due to the difficulty in securing additional expansions. Because the resource changes have had such positive effects outside of Mech play, we wanted to make some changes to Mech to improve it across the different types of StarCraft II maps.

The Cyclone

We are planning to explore a complete redesign of the Cyclone to make it a core unit with a powerful anti-armored attack against ground units. The unit will remain fragile for its cost, but will have a fast movement speed. This way, the Cyclone can combo well with the Hellion early-on in order to defend additional bases or to keep the opponent contained while playing a more aggressive style.

Design Changes:

Anti-ground weapon heavily changed.
Damage changed to 3 (+3 vs armored) damage, attacks once per .07 seconds, range increased from 5 to 6.
Weapon upgrade amount changed from 2 to 1 to account for the new damage value.
Changed weapon name to Tornado Blaster.
No Anti-air weapon.
Movement speed decreased from 4.72 to 4.13
Lock On can now target air units only. Range is unchanged, and the ability now deals 160 damage over 14 seconds.
Removed auto-cast for the Lock On ability.
Supply cost decreased from 4 to 3.
Increased health from 120 to 180.
No longer requires a tech lab to build. The Cyclone can now be built with a reactor.
The Cyclone auto-attack missile art is now smaller to avoid causing visual clutter. The missiles fired from the Lock-on ability are unchanged.
Removed the Cyclone Lock On Damage upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab.
Before and After:



The Siege Tank

This iconic unit is a critical part of the Mech composition. After numerous discussions with players, a key understanding has surfaced: the added mobility granted by Medivac pickup in Legacy of the Void also brought about the loss of one of the Siege Tank’s most enjoyable aspects: incredibly effective area control. Yet, constructing Medivacs (a unit which heals only biological units) is often not the right choice for Mech players, and so these players are not able to take full advantage of the Siege Tank’s strengths.

However, if we decrease the mobility of Siege Tanks by removing Medivac pickup, we can justify a large increase to its damage and reinvigorate the Siege Tank’s ability to assert dominance over specific areas of the map. Doing so will also decrease the unit’s overlap with the Widow Mine, which serves as a more mobile burst damage option (similar to the current Siege Tank with Medivac pickup).

Siege Tank Changes:

Sieged Siege Tank damage increased from 35 (+15 vs armored) to 40 (+30 vs armored).
Sieged Siege Tanks can no longer be picked up by Medivacs.
35 (+15 vs armored) damage versus 40 (+30 vs armored) damage:



The Liberator and the Thor

Since it’s addition to the game, the Liberator has seen much use. We hear and agree with the feedback stating that they are currently too strong “all-around.” Therefore, we wanted to remove the +light damage on their Anti-air attack so that they still serve as the early game anti-ground harassment option as well as late game zone control option, but they will require a greater commitment to be effective against large numbers of smaller air units.

To compensate for this change, we would like to focus on amplifying the Anti-air capabilities of the Thor. We’d like to explore increasing the splash radius on their splash damage Javelin Missiles, and we’re also experimenting with changes to the Tempest and Brood Lord to make the Thor a more capable counter to these units.

Liberator Change:

Remove the +light damage for the Anti-air attack.
Thor Change:

Anti-air splash for the Javelin Missile Launchers radius increased from 0.5 to 0.6.
Thor High Impact Payload Mode: The Anti-air weapon, 250mm Punisher Cannons, will now be prioritized before the Anti-ground weapon, Thor's Hammer.
Before and After:



0.5 Splash Radius vs 0.6 Splash Radius:



The Banshee

Banshees are a unit we’d like to bring into the spotlight. To do this, we’d like to first test having no requirement for the Banshee speed upgrade. We know that Banshees may end up being too strong with this change, and if that happens we can lower the amount of speed the upgrade grants. Our goal is to give just the right amount of speed buff so that Banshees are used more often than now, and to make their relationship with their counters less one-sided.

Banshee Change:

Removed the Fusion Core requirement for the Hyperflight Rotors upgrade.
The Viking

We want to make the Viking’s ability to transform a situationally useful thing, but we definitely don’t want players to build Vikings for the ground mode when there are no air threats in the game. This change should help achieve that.

Viking Change:

Ground mode auto-attack now deals +8 mechanical damage.
No Bonus vs (+8 vs Mechanical) Bonus:



The Battlecruiser

Changing the Battlecruiser’s abilities to be on separate cooldowns rather than relying on energy opens up the Battlecruiser for more strategic plays. Using these abilities at the right times will make all the difference between playing better or worse with the unit and we hope that it brings the Battlecruiser more into favor.

Battlecruiser Changes:

Energy bar removed.
Yamato Cannon and Tactical Jump no longer require energy to cast. Instead, each has a separate cooldown.
Yamato Cannon cooldown is 71 seconds.
Tactiucal Jump Cooldown is 71 seconds.
Removed the Behemoth Reactor upgrade (energy upgrade).
The Raven

We’d like to bring the Raven more into favor while not enabling the unit to cause stalemate games again. Since Terran has so many worker harassment options already, we wanted to increase the strength of the Raven in battles. Due to the short duration, low health, and immobility of auto-turrets, an increase to their damage should give Ravens a bit more firepower in combat, while not adding too much to their ability to harass worker lines.

Raven Change:

Auto Turret damage increased from 16 to 24.
16 Damage vs 24 damage Auto Turrets:





Protoss has seen significant changes and improvements in Legacy of the Void, and with this update we have a few things we want to improve even further. For one, we’re aiming to make the race’s interactions with Terran Mech more interesting. We’d also like to increase the power of the Zealot in certain areas compared to Adepts or Stalkers, and also make some generally cool unit improvements.

The Tempest

In Legacy of the Void, we made changes to the Immortal and other units to make Mech a more viable route for Terrans facing off versus Protoss players. However, it quickly became apparent that late-game Terran Mech really struggled versus Tempests. Due to the Tempest’s incredible siege range against ground and air units, and the unit’s efficient supply to cost ratio, massing Tempests was an easy answer against Terran Mech.

In response, we’d like to increase the supply of the unit to better match the cost and effectiveness of the unit, as well as reduce the range of its anti-ground attack. These two nerfs are counterbalanced by a new ability which aims to create interesting interactions against Siege Tank lines.

Due to the drastically increased effectiveness of the Siege Tank, we’ve added a new ability for the Tempest called ‘Disruption Sphere’. This ability launches a ball at the ground that acts a zoning tool, forcing units (especially Siege Tanks) in that location to pack up and move elsewhere. We hope to see some diverse gameplay around this interaction based on the positioning and the composition of each side’s armies.

Tempest Changes:

Increase supply count from 4 to 6.
Anti-ground damage increased from 30 to 35, but no change to Anti-air damage.
Anti-ground weapon range from 15 to 6.
New ability: Disruption Sphere
Immediately launches ball of energy and fires at target ground.
Damages ground units and buildings in that location
Deals 450 damage over a 32 second duration.
43 second cooldown.
Area of Effect radius set to 1.95.
13 cast range.
No friendly fire damage.
Before and After:



Control the Battlefield with 'Disruption Sphere':



The Zealot

In Legacy of the Void, Adepts and Stalkers have become the favored core gateway units. We’d like to increase Zealot movement speed with the Charge upgrade researched. This would aim to significantly improve its performance versus kiting units, such as Terran bio or the new Hydralisks on Creep. This change could allow the Zealot to sometimes be a core option, whereas in certain situations, such as when Lurkers are involved, the relationship can change back to favoring Adepts or Stalkers. Also for warp-in harassment cases, this change could often make it situationally appropriate to warp in Zealots over Adepts.

Zealot Change:

The "Research Charge" upgrade will now increase the Zealot's movement speed from 3.85 to 4.13.
The Carrier

For the Carrier, we believe the addition of the “Release Interceptors” ability had a negative effect on the game. In most cases, this ability became a test of simply clicking the ability before the Carrier dies. Therefore, we would like to go in a different direction by making Interceptors cheaper, thereby making the role of the Carrier clearer while also giving the unit a significant buff.

If Interceptors are cheaper, players will need to focus more on targeting down the Carriers than they do currently. This change, in combination with changes we previously made to Carrier/Interceptor controls (to behave more like they did in Brood War), should enable advanced Carrier micro and allow for the unit to perform in a way that reflects the skill of the controlling player.

Carrier Changes:

Remove the Release Interceptor ability.
Interceptor cost reduced from 25 minerals to 5 minerals, and autobuild is enabled from the start.
The Dark Templar

We first want to mention that this is a highly experimental change, and we admittedly have a low degree of confidence of it making it into the live game. We also want to point out that we clearly don’t want to buff Dark Templars at the stage which they first enter the game, so we’re introducing an upgrade that will come into play after a Dark Templar Shrine has been completed for some time.

With that said, we’d like to add an ability with the goal of seeing if player skill using Dark Templars can be emphasized, even after the point when detection becomes more widely available.

Dark Templar Change:

New Ability: Shadow Stride

Allows the Dark Templar to teleport a short distance.
Research from Dark Shrine.
150/150 cost.
121 research time.
Cooldown of 21 seconds.
Creates a visible smoke-effect upon being cast.
Shadow Stride in Action:






Zerg has had numerous new strategies since the launch of Legacy of the Void, yet there are definitely areas of potential improvement available. We want to take this opportunity to experiment with a heavy rebalance of the Swarm Host, a redesign on the Infestor and its abilities, and a rebalancing of the strength of different Zerg tech paths. This means there are changes to units in different tech options, as well as an adjustment to the Ravager that feels necessary, especially given the changes that we intend to make to the Siege Tank.

The Swarm Host

The new role of the Swarm Host in Legacy of the Void seems to be good, but unit balance has made it impossible to confirm this. The next few months give us an opportunity to test whether the role is indeed good, so we would like to significantly reduce the cost of the unit so that players are incentivized to use it. Depending on the results of this test, we can determine how to best make further moves accordingly.

Swarm Host Change:

Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6.
The Ravager

With the addition of the Ravager in Legacy of the Void, Roach-Ravager compositions became used quite heavily across multiple matchups. To achieve better diversity, we want to take a pass at three units: the Ravager, Hydralisk, and Baneling. For the Ravager, we want to add an armored flag to the unit. While this change is a response to the Siege Tank changes, it will also have a massive effect in Zerg versus Protoss. In order to compensate, we’d like to add additional tech options by making a couple changes to the Hydralisk.

Ravager Change:

Add +Armored flag.
Non-Armored vs Armored Ravagers:



The Hydralisk

We have two changes in mind for the Hydralisk, and both are aimed at making the Hydralisk a core unit in the Zerg arsenal. First, we’d like to change how the speed upgrade works so that Hydralisks behave the same way as other Zerg units on and off Creep. This change would be accompanied by enabling Evolve Muscular Augments to buff the overall movement speed of Hydralisks (instead of just their speed off Creep).

A second area of change to the Hydralisk is a bit more of an experiment, but we wonder if Hydralisks could be more of a core unit if their range is increased by 1. We’ll watch these changes carefully however, as the first change alone might already make Hydralisks a core option (especially if Zerg players spread Creep well), so we’ll need to test these changes thoroughly to ensure we make the best decision for this unit.

Hydralisk Changes:

Hydralisk attack range increased from 5 to 6.
The "Evolve Muscular Augments" will continue to give +1 range to the Hydralisk, as well as a base movement speed bonus of 25%.
Changed the Hydralisk movement speed to be affected the same as other units while on Creep. Muscular Augments now gives a 25% speed boost both on and off of Creep.
Before and After:



The Baneling

The Baneling is the third core unit we want to address. In order to incentivize players to opt for this tech option, we want to make Banelings stronger without seriously impacting how players should micro when splitting against them. Increasing the health of the unit felt like a solid option that hits both of our goals.

Baneling Change

Health increased from 30 to 40.
30HP vs 40HP Banelings:



The Infestor

The Infestor deserves some love, and we’ve seen this sentiment echoed by our players. With that in mind, we have some more experimental changes to test on this front (similar to the Dark Templar ‘Shadow Stride’ changes). These changes certainly push the boundaries, but we’re curious to see if something more extreme would be cool for the Infestor.

We’d like to explore adding a new ability, ‘Deep Tunnel,’ that allows Infestors to tunnel to anywhere which they have vision for an energy cost. Second, we’d like to allow Infestors to cast all spells while burrowed. To make the unit easier to find and target, we’ve also added a small collision radius to the Infestor that exists even while its burrowed so that players can more easily target the unit with attacks or spells (like Feedback).

Infestor Changes

Has a collision radius while burrowed (but smaller than normal).
Can cast all abilities while burrowed.
New Ability: Deep Tunnel
50 mana cost.
Can cast anywhere on the map with vision.
Provides an audible warning to the enemy when Deep Tunnel begins.
The Brood Lord

With the changes to Terran, we want to ensure that the Thor has the potential to help counter the Brood Lords. Therefore, we’ve reduced the Brood Lord’s range to match the Thor's Anti-air attack range.

Range reduced from to 11 to 10.
Remember, this is an early preview and things may look considerably different once the changes go live following the November tournament season. That being said, we’re very excited about the potential these changes have for improving the StarCraft II Multiplayer experience. Look forward to the first balance test map being released this week, and please let us know what you think in the comments below!



Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20241474/legacy-of-the-void-multiplayer-design-changes-8-14-2016



UPDATE!!!

Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20241475/major-balance-changes-test-map-now-available-8-16-2016

During the WCS Summer Circuit Championship in Montreal, David Kim teased several major balance changes we had been testing earlier. These changes are now live and ready to be tested. Check out the full changes below and after you've had some time to test them, let us know what you think.
For an in-depth look into the reasoning behind these changes, check out our comprehenvisve blog.

Cyclone
Anti-ground weapon heavily changed.
Damage changed to 3 (+3 vs armored) damage, attacks once per .07 seconds, range increased from 5 to 6.
Weapon upgrade amount changed from 2 to 1 to account for the new damage value.
Changed weapon name to Tornado Blaster.
No Anti-air weapon.
Movement speed decreased from 4.72 to 4.13
Lock On can now target air units only. Range is unchanged, and the ability now deals 160 damage over 14 seconds.
Removed auto-cast for the Lock On ability.
Supply cost decreased from 4 to 3.
Increased health from 120 to 180.
No longer requires a tech lab to build. The Cyclone can now be built with a reactor.
The Cyclone auto-attack missile art is now smaller to avoid causing visual clutter. The missiles fired from the Lock-on ability are unchanged.
Removed the Cyclone Lock On Damage upgrade from the Factory Tech Lab.
Siege Tank
Sieged Siege Tank damage increased from 35 (+15 vs armored) to 40 (+30 vs armored).
Sieged Siege Tanks can no longer be picked up by Medivacs.
Liberator
Remove the +light damage for the Anti-air attack.
Thor
Anti-air splash for the Javelin Missile Launchers radius increased from 0.5 to 0.6.
Thor High Impact Payload Mode: The Anti-air weapon, 250mm Punisher Cannons, will now be prioritized before the Anti-ground weapon, Thor's Hammer.
Banshee
Removed the Fusion Core requirement for the Hyperflight Rotors upgrade.
Viking
Ground mode auto-attack now deals +8 mechanical damage.
Battlecruiser
Energy bar removed.
Yamato Cannon and Tactical Jump no longer require energy to cast. Instead, each has a separate cooldown.
Yamato Cannon cooldown is 71 seconds.
Tactical Jump Cooldown is 71 seconds.
Removed the Behemoth Reactor upgrade (energy upgrade).
Raven
Auto Turret damage increased from 16 to 24.

Tempest
Increase supply count from 4 to 6.
Anti-ground damage increased from 30 to 35, but no change to Anti-air damage.
Anti-ground weapon range from 15 to 6.
New ability: Disruption Sphere
Immediately launches ball of energy and fires at target ground.
Damages ground units and buildings in that location
Deals 450 damage over a 32 second duration.
43 second cooldown.
Area of Effect radius set to 1.95.
13 cast range.
No friendly fire damage.
Zealot
The "Research Charge" upgrade will now increase the Zealot's movement speed from 3.85 to 4.13.
Carrier
Remove the Release Interceptor ability.
Interceptor cost reduced from 25 minerals to 5 minerals, and autobuild is enabled from the start.
Dark Templar
New Ability: Shadow Stride
Allows the Dark Templar to teleport a short distance.
Cooldown of 21 seconds.
Creates a visible smoke-effect upon being cast.
Research from Dark Shrine.
150/150 cost.
121 research time.

Swarm Host
Swarm Host cost reduced from 150/100 to 100/75.
Increased Locust Swoop range from 4 to 6.
Ravager
Add +Armored flag.
Hydralisk
Hydralisk attack range increased from 5 to 6.
The "Evolve Muscular Augments" will continue to give +1 range to the Hydralisk, as well as a base movement speed bonus of 25%.
Changed the Hydralisk movement speed to be affected the same as other units while on Creep. Muscular Augments now gives a 25% speed boost both on and off of Creep.
Baneling
Health increased from 30 to 40.
Infestor
Has a collision radius while burrowed (but smaller than normal).
Can cast all abilities while burrowed.
New Ability: Deep Tunnel
50 mana cost.
Can cast anywhere on the map with vision.
Provides an audible warning to the enemy when Deep Tunnel begins.
Brood Lord
Range reduced from to 11 to 10.
We encourage you to head on into the Balance Test Map to test these changes out! If you already have StarCraft II installed and updated, you can launch it here.

Otherwise, enter the Multiplayer section and navigate to Custom. The Balance Test Map will be at the top of the list under ‘Top Played.’
We’ve also updated the Extension Mod for balance testing, so you can play around with these changes on a variety of maps. Those of you interested in trying out the Extension Mod can do the following to get started:
Navigate to Browse Maps on the Custom Games menu
Select a map and click the Create with Mod button in the lower right corner
Choose to sort by Blizzard Mods from the dropdown list at the top of the screen
Select the “Balance Test Mod” Extension from the list and then hit Create Game
We’d like to remind you that feedback based on playtesting is the most helpful information you can share with us at this time. We kindly ask that you spend some time playing games on the test map before offering your thoughts on the changes listed above. We look forward to hearing your feedback and please remember that none of these changes are final.



Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/20241475/major-balance-changes-test-map-now-available-8-16-2016
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany673 Posts
August 14 2016 16:38 GMT
#2
DTs can BLINK!!!!!!!!!
Lategame Dts are strong enough already. pretty sure this idea will be scrapped
GreYMisT
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States6736 Posts
August 14 2016 16:39 GMT
#3
Might come back to SC2 for this, a lot of what they are fixing were the only gripes I had about LOTV
"life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery" / Join TL Mafia! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
SiaBBo
Profile Joined February 2011
Finland132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-14 17:14:25
August 14 2016 16:40 GMT
#4
So Warp Prism, Adept and Oracle are fine as they are? Also I find it pretty funny that David Kim thinks that Tanks are going to help against Adepts. I mean, did he forget Adept's ability?
Musicus
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany23576 Posts
August 14 2016 16:40 GMT
#5
So many changes! Thanks Blizz!
Maru and Serral are probably top 5.
Kashim
Profile Joined December 2013
Poland1153 Posts
August 14 2016 16:40 GMT
#6
xD
SC2 LP Staff, Aligulac Editor, Tournament Organiser and Admin @KashimSC2
Luolis
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
Finland7098 Posts
August 14 2016 16:41 GMT
#7
Yoo what the FUCK?!!?!
pro cheese woman / Its never Sunny in Finland. Perkele / FinnishStarcraftTrivia
Brutaxilos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States2622 Posts
August 14 2016 16:41 GMT
#8
70 damage tanks. It's BW again
Jangbi favorite player. Forever~ CJ herO the King of IEM. BOMBERRRRRRRR. Sexy Boy Rogue. soO #1! Oliveira China Represent!
Lightrush
Profile Joined July 2015
Bulgaria164 Posts
August 14 2016 16:41 GMT
#9
I hope this is not one of their "heres some major changes we want to test, but lets not talk about it ever again after a week" posts!
User was warned for this post
Ve5pa
Profile Joined December 2014
United Kingdom252 Posts
August 14 2016 16:42 GMT
#10
Has David Kim lost his mind??? We are gonna find out that's for sure....
RuneZerg
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark90 Posts
August 14 2016 16:43 GMT
#11
should have buffed hydra hp instead of increasing range... already a bad balance between damage output and survivability tbh, i mean new siege tank 2 shots hydras...
Solar424
Profile Blog Joined June 2013
United States4001 Posts
August 14 2016 16:44 GMT
#12
I don't even care if none of these changes get put in: the fact that they are even being considered shows that David Kim has no idea what he is doing. How he has not been replaced yet is one of the great mysteries of the universe.
riotjune
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States3392 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-15 08:16:12
August 14 2016 16:45 GMT
#13
We got a new game boys

PTR/Sandbox mode NOW
feardragon
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States970 Posts
August 14 2016 16:46 GMT
#14
I just want to say blink dt's are not nearly as bad as they sound because you have to get the dark shrine, THEN research blink for 2 minutes on the dark shrine(not twilight council) in an upgrade separate from stalkers. On top of that, you can see where the dt's blink because of the smoke effect so they're not impossible to follow.

But the idea of "blink dts'" is really funny, heheh.
Ok Starcraft 2 Commentator
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
August 14 2016 16:47 GMT
#15
on 1 hand I'm very happy that every whiner will shut up now and play his 100 eapm mech

on the other hand, I am not excited about mech cancer being back in full force
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Ansibled
Profile Joined November 2014
United Kingdom9872 Posts
August 14 2016 16:49 GMT
#16
I'm just glad TvT isn't going to be awful with the tank drops.
'StarCraft is just a fairy tale told to scare children actually.'
TL+ Member
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
August 14 2016 16:49 GMT
#17
Changes for terran are superb. Changes for protoss are meh. Changes for zerg are terrible.

Every single change to terran makes sense and is good.
Protoss changes are derpy, DT blink is plain dumb, tempest spell will be stupid (i can assure it), zealots changes are kinda ok, carriers too.
Zerg changes are horrible. Straight hydra buff will probably break ZvP. SH change is just stupid. Infestor change too, deeptunnel is interesting but should be for another unit. BL change and bane change are kinda good though.
Espartaquen
Profile Joined September 2015
88 Posts
August 14 2016 16:50 GMT
#18
As long as the game does not slow down, I see no reason to come back...
Deathstar
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
9150 Posts
August 14 2016 16:51 GMT
#19
Make TvT great again!
rip passion
Ve5pa
Profile Joined December 2014
United Kingdom252 Posts
August 14 2016 16:51 GMT
#20
Increase in Tempest supply cost is only a few years overdue and half-hearted, should of made them 8 supply and cost 1000/500
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