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On September 26 2016 22:03 VonComet wrote:
I think the tank is currently in the perfect spot stat-wise, it enables much more aggressive mech play and the zone control needed to defend the greater number of bases that you need in LotV. I would like to redirect the debate towards more realistic changes again like the horribly underpriced swarmhost, and early game dominance of cyclones.
How can we now the new tank stats are perfect? I think the new tanks may already be too strong in large numbers.
I am a bit afraid that the tank in its current design form will always be either too strong if massed or too weak in low numbers. Therefore I think a design change that lets tanks scale less efficiently is needed to allow the tank to be useful in both situations without being overpowered.
You mentioned defending a greater number of bases, which means your tanks will have to spread out anyway. If they are strong enough to be used like this I fear they will always be too strong when put together(in the current design).
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Slovenia26 Posts
I disagree with most of what you said. Sitting back and massing tanks is a terrible idea since air units will be made to counter them (and counter them they will). I think you also might be underestimating the effect of medivac pickup removal when thinking of these arguments.
Another change I'm concerned about is the raven turret buffs since those could cause the "too strong in large numbers" effect, and a severe one at that.
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On September 27 2016 04:56 VonComet wrote:
I disagree with most of what you said. Sitting back and massing tanks is a terrible idea since air units will be made to counter them (and counter them they will). I think you also might be underestimating the effect of medivac pickup removal when thinking of these arguments.
Another change I'm concerned about is the raven turret buffs since those could cause the "too strong in large numbers" effect, and a severe one at that.
The turret buff alone drove me away from the test map. 5 mass Raven turtle mech games later and I'm like yea fuck this, not fun to play against, not fun to watch, terrible change, probably the worst in the entire patch.
Why not just make the Raven a utility based caster and end the free damage with energy thing? It's just shit design, call it like it is.
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I feel like all these changes are going to create new problems as much as solving old ones. And to be honest, except for the tank change I really don't see anything here that makes the game significantly different or better or more playable or even less playable
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On September 27 2016 05:50 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I feel like all these changes are going to create new problems as much as solving old ones. And to be honest, except for the tank change I really don't see anything here that makes the game significantly different or better or more playable or even less playable
+1 More like even less playable everything is just so imba you can die to anything at anytime without a perfect read
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On September 26 2016 22:46 Zwijn wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2016 22:03 VonComet wrote:
I think the tank is currently in the perfect spot stat-wise, it enables much more aggressive mech play and the zone control needed to defend the greater number of bases that you need in LotV. I would like to redirect the debate towards more realistic changes again like the horribly underpriced swarmhost, and early game dominance of cyclones. How can we now the new tank stats are perfect? I think the new tanks may already be too strong in large numbers. I am a bit afraid that the tank in its current design form will always be either too strong if massed or too weak in low numbers. Therefore I think a design change that lets tanks scale less efficiently is needed to allow the tank to be useful in both situations without being overpowered. You mentioned defending a greater number of bases, which means your tanks will have to spread out anyway. If they are strong enough to be used like this I fear they will always be too strong when put together(in the current design).
They should reintroduce brood war's overkill.
But tbh asking about this is just like asking about adding damage reduce in diablo 3 PvP.
It takes forever for them to listen.
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On September 27 2016 05:50 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote:
I feel like all these changes are going to create new problems as much as solving old ones. And to be honest, except for the tank change I really don't see anything here that makes the game significantly different or better or more playable or even less playable
As a Terran I have to say it's a nice change to no longer feal like my whole game plan revolves around doing critical damage with my first drop and than game ending damage with the follow up. If this is "unfun" how do you propose fixing the poor state of tvz where due to tankivacs/bane target fire Terran aggression can be to strong but due to ultras Terran has no options but to comit to these few to strong timings the outcome of which solely decide the game.
Mabey this is fun the first few times but I'm tired of every tvz I play being nearly the same, with very very little variety in viable approaches to the game from the Terran side and games being decided solely on controlling the same exact queen ling vs marine medivac interaction at the same timing correctly..
My first impression would be ask for bliz to nerf ultras but than you realize That Zerg needs some kind of huge late game tempo swing vs bio that gives them a window to attack after being the defender for most of the game. So to fix the mu bliz gave Zerg a queen buff but that does not change the mu. T must still do critical damage before hive, it just makes this critical damage harder to do, perhaps to hard see the brutal losses of Innovation and Maru to Nerchio. So Terran needs an alternative stratagey than, kill them before they get there. But also one that's not op. That's what bliz changes may be moving towards. That's why I think that these changes although not perfect are in the right direction. Hopefully the game can move towards the ballance(at the high level) that tvp has where both sides have sizable windows where there composition is good and both sides have oportunities to attack and defend at varouse points in the game.
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On August 20 2016 11:28 Loccstana wrote:
Stalker Blink and Adept shade need to be taken a look at. When you can ignore proper army positioning without any drawback or costs, it violates one of the most fundamental principles of RTS games.
I knew shit was going bad, when I saw him add that dumb Mortal Combat "Get Over Here!" ability to the Zerg Viper, it wasn't game ending or even OP in any sense, it just didn't fit in Starcraft or a balanced RTS -- it was some real gimmicky MMO/WoW ability garbage, it had no place in Starcraft, yet he added it, and continued further with similar gimmicks all over.
This guy David Kim is retarded.
On August 19 2016 14:07 JackONeill wrote:
The main issue with queens, and MSC in some regard, is about the "how much at home?" syndrome.
Lemme explain.
When protoss pushes out, or goes for a drop, he only has to keep a MSC at home to summon 4 immobile thors on his pylons. A single unit left at home does that.
When zerg pushes out, and even with F2, he has queens at home, that deal with most early agressions quite easily.
Terran, on the other hand, can't do that : if you leave home with a mine drop and an oracle comes in, you have no defensive unit that "counter most agressions".
That the main issues, i think : "how much do i leave at home?" and "how early and how snowbally is my defensive unit(s)?" For protoss it's easy, just leave the MSCore and warp if you get backstabbed. You have MSC early, and defensive warp snowballs throughout the game. For zerg, just have your queens in a control group and amove on the minimap if a minedrop/adept drop comes in, and the more queens you have the better your defense is;
Terran doesn't have a unit/units that are excellent polyvalent defensive units. If the raven was able to transform terran supplies into defensive structures (this is not a proposition, it'd be terrible), terran would build a defensive raven and push with other units much more freely.
However the design of a defensive unit(s) that's so accessible and, by gaining energy, gets better and better at dealing with agressions is terrible. Terran can't have such a unit because most terrans units are very good at defending : however, you don't have the easy choice protoss or zerg have, where defensive at-home units are very easy to identify.
I'm not complaining terran doesn 't have such a unit, i'm just saddened that protoss and zerg do because it prevent agression by doing the same defensive mandatory stuff every single game. And seeing your drop getting killed by 4 queens or your oracle destroyed by 2 POs is just sad to play and watch.
Blame moron David Kim for adding a gimmick unit instead of fixing the problems with Protoss, I quit after WoL when seeing all the gimmicks in HotS. Trying out LotV now and it's gimmicks galore.
As a Protoss only player, I was barely able to handle the gimmick of "Warp Gate", it should have been removed from the game as it killed the fun of Multiplayer maps -- 1 pylon defends/reinforces rushes, that was like the whole point of big multiplayer maps likw BGH/Hunters in Broodwar. They killed the entire fun of the bulk population of Starcraft players for what...some stupid gimmick to make Protoss unique. I played Broodwar Toss for 10 years it was playable -- I played Toss in SC2 for 3 years, it was agonizing dealing with the developers. All they have to do is remove warpgate, and they fix so many damn issues, but myopic mindset will do this to you -- brain dead David Kim.
I'm not convinced that ranked 1v1 is the future as well. But I can see 2v2 or 3v3 f.e. work if it's done well, gets rid of most of the old remnants that slow the game down unnecessarily and still provide some atmosphere. DoW 1 is a still a lot of fun on LAN-parties.
I still don't like their macro mechanics and terrible terrible damage systems, but I doubt they'll change the game that much.
Again, will never happen until they remove Warpgate from my race, or at least put super far down the tech tree, think about why BGH/fastest maps so popular in BW(on top of Ladder), that most casual players played even I played with my casual friends -- didn't translate into SC2: WoL and onwards?? It wasn't a map design issue, it could be replicated, it was because warpgate kills rushes when you spawn in weird spots and surrounded by enemy, it created tricky scenarios in BW that often got wild as heck but it was fun -- now queue in "unique defining ability it must stay WarpGate" and all of that goes out the door. I know this cause I only play Protoss for entire BW/SC2 history, it's not that hard to fix -- remove it rebalance the units. But I know this will never happen. I'm surprised so few understand this.
On August 17 2016 12:42 ecnahc wrote:
Gimmick means protoss in the sc2 community
Please tell Blizzard to remove Warpgate then, I'd take any nerfs to Protoss after they remove Warpgate--it at least forces them to rebalance Gateway units, return to a more balanced Tier1 units across the races in terms of Def/Off Advantage.
Less gimmicks the better please. Like seriously, the Oracle...I saw that and MSC in HotS and booked it. The hell are they doing to Protoss.
User was temp banned for this post.
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