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I really have to resist the urge to just post "too little, too late".
The screwed up ladder-system is - in my opinion - one of the main reasons why the SC2-community has deteriorated as it did. The Warcraft 3 system was much better. And the Hearthstone system IS currently much better. It is both easier to understand, unforgiving in its own way (you can lose ranks rather quickly if you're on a bad streak) but also motivating to push for "legend".
I never got the concept of random divisions that say nothing about your skill or the skill of the people that you are ranked with. Division rank has always been completely irrelevant. They should have reworked this in early days of WoL.
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On July 16 2016 01:16 Excalibur_Z wrote:
So before promotion the MMR gap between actual and provisional was 583, and after it was 584. There's probably some rounding there which means it actually stayed the same. On SEA, my actual-provisional gap was 513 (3740-3227). Maybe the gap stays at 2 standard deviations? It would make more sense to me if it gradually converged toward your actual MMR, but expressing confidence in stdev terms also seems reasonable (if a bit more jarring for the player).
Yes. I just checked by screenshots, the gap between provisional MMR and true MMR is always 583 and 584 for me, so I think you're correct about how it's working. Still, it should converge.
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i always thought all the "window dressing" around the Ladder had no impact on my fun level. Therefore, i believed this whole Ladder revamp thing would have no effect on me. I always thought that as long as i get a steady stream of similarly matched opponents when pressing the "Find Match" button that that is all i really needed.
i was wrong. the game is more fun with this new ladder system. i'm in Diamond tier 2 and in the top 8 i play as Random. Protoss is my worst race. I matched up against the guy who is #1 in my Diamond Tier2 division. he plays Zerg. I'm 0-2 against this guy. I drew Protoss. he fast expanded.. and i 4-gated him and won.
the new ladder system gave more meaning and context to the game. i never thought i'd be the type of guy to fall for this Ladder Season window dressing crap. 
i'd like to grudgingly congratulate David Kim and the Blizzard team for improving the ladder.
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On July 19 2016 00:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:i always thought all the "window dressing" around the Ladder had no impact on my fun level. Therefore, i believed this whole Ladder revamp thing would have no effect on me. I always thought that as long as i get a steady stream of similarly matched opponents when pressing the "Find Match" button that that is all i really needed. i was wrong. the game is more fun with this new ladder system. i'm in Diamond tier 2 and in the top 8 i play as Random. Protoss is my worst race. I matched up against the guy who is #1 in my Diamond Tier2 division. he plays Zerg. I'm 0-2 against this guy. I drew Protoss. he fast expanded.. and i 4-gated him and won. the new ladder system gave more meaning and context to the game. i never thought i'd be the type of guy to fall for this Ladder Season window dressing crap. i'd like to grudgingly congratulate David Kim and the Blizzard team for improving the ladder.
Yes the ladder revamp turned out better then I thought. It is great that such a small change can improve the enjoyment so much.
Now I just hope the will change Tempest supply to 6.
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I realy like the new update for me it brought back a sense of progression to the game. Once I hit masters back in wol things slowed down for me somewhat. I've never been good enough to reach gm so I've just floated around in masters. Now with the new tier system I can shoot to reach masters 1. I have a goal agian.😃
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The leagues are confusing. But now, compared to before, you can just ignore it and focus and the MMR which is the thing that really matters.
However i think that the MMR gains and losses are a little wacky. With 5000 MMR i played guys with like 5300 MMR and still lost like 15 MMR points, even if the guy obviously was much stronger than i was
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If you play someone with exactly the same MMR as you, how many MMR points do you get when you win?
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United States12248 Posts
Seems to be +20/-20 if both players are stable.
Don't take that as gospel though, if others have different results please post them.
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If you play opponents who're playing unranked - their MMR can have crazy shifts. I don't know if it's a bug, or intentional or what else. Friend was doing a bronze 3 to masters 1 stream and some pretty wonky numbers came up.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b1NFxAo.jpg)
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United States12248 Posts
But was that unranked, or was it the last placement match? Those provisional values change a lot.
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I have another screenshot of him in silver where he definitely didn't have provisional MMR anymore.
Umm, against other opponents who played ranked, even while provisional MMR was still active, the changes were normal (in the twenties, thirties range), but victories against players who played unranked showed the drastic change for them as pictured above.
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Any word on a date for separate MMR per race, and if it will be for ranked as well as unranked?
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Someone who is online during the upcoming GM update should look into what happens when more than 10 players from Contender are in the top 200 MMR. Do more than 10 promotions into GM happen, or do only the top 10 get promoted even if other should be too?
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United States12248 Posts
On July 20 2016 01:30 pundurs wrote:
I have another screenshot of him in silver where he definitely didn't have provisional MMR anymore.
Umm, against other opponents who played ranked, even while provisional MMR was still active, the changes were normal (in the twenties, thirties range), but victories against players who played unranked showed the drastic change for them as pictured above.
That's very interesting. Thanks! I really like following Bronze to Master journeys since it helps to get a good idea of the speed of progression.
On July 20 2016 01:33 paralleluniverse wrote:
Someone who is online during the upcoming GM update should look into what happens when more than 10 players from Contender are in the top 200 MMR. Do more than 10 promotions into GM happen, or do only the top 10 get promoted even if other should be too?
My prediction is that a max of 10 GMs get demoted and then replaced by Contenders, meaning after that 3-hour window there could still be that #11 Contender with higher MMR than the #190 GM.
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On July 20 2016 02:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:
That's very interesting. Thanks! I really like following Bronze to Master journeys since it helps to get a good idea of the speed of progression.
It took an absurd amount of games. The score was like 140-11 and ~23 hours. Here's the VOD if you wanna skim over it.
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You see this if the opponent is doing placements (presumably not their last placement):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N7rLSnX.jpg?1)
I haven't figured out how random team games work yet. Does it take a straight average of the team?
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the bonus pool is spent really weirdly now, anyone understands ?
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United States12248 Posts
On July 20 2016 02:51 LordOfDabu wrote:You see this if the opponent is doing placements (presumably not their last placement): I haven't figured out how random team games work yet. Does it take a straight average of the team?
Yeah their final placement shows their new MMR and the MMR change for that game. I've been watching the VOD off and on today and for that -450 game, it was that player's second game of the season (which means it had to be unranked or else he would have seen a screenshot like the above). Really weird, because the math is probably right for a provisional state, but the fact that a 2499 was matched with a 3600 is crazy to me (that has to translate to 100% win probability).
For Random Teams, the matching uses your team's average against the enemy team's average (so 3000+3500 vs 3100+3400) but the rating change is applied individually against the other team's average (so for you it would be 3000 vs 3250 and for your teammate it would be 3500 vs 3250).
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United States12248 Posts
On July 20 2016 02:32 pundurs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2016 02:13 Excalibur_Z wrote:
That's very interesting. Thanks! I really like following Bronze to Master journeys since it helps to get a good idea of the speed of progression. It took an absurd amount of games. The score was like 140-11 and ~23 hours. Here's the VOD if you wanna skim over it.
I took the liberty of going through the match history in its entirety here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1w-6sDS3POljVJNhXa_3Cq2kKE7_db-zQqMMSk1fPWAE/edit?usp=sharing
As we can see here, the closer the MMR values of both players, the closer the rating change for that game gets to 21-23. The outliers from games with unranked opponents also show an MMR gain of 46 (for 1101 and 835 rating difference games), which must be the maximum (the minimum being 0).
There's probably a lot more to be gleaned from this dataset, such as learning the relative trends of system confidence (you can see in the second chart that the rating difference gradually closes).
This is pretty fun and cool stuff. Thanks again for sharing!
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Very interesting data to look at. Thanks for putting in the insane work laying it out!
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EPT
