EPTOn a related note, we wanted to let you know that we'll be including some Cyclone bug fixes in a patch we're applying tomorrow.
Cyclone Fix Tomorrow
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10673 Posts
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Diabolique
Czech Republic5118 Posts
On June 14 2016 07:12 GGzerG wrote: Cool, glad they are finally fixing this! We don't get to see this unit very much. I am wondering a lot, whether that will change :-) | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 14 2016 07:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Took them 2 weeks, i assume the entire overwatch and world of warcraft team helped as well to fix it this complicated bug. Or they took 15 seconds to fix the bug, and then waited for the next patch. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
Seems to be missing from the patch notes. | ||
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scoo2r
Canada90 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Athenau
569 Posts
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HugoBallzak
700 Posts
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On June 14 2016 07:53 PinoKotsBeer wrote: Took them 2 weeks, i assume the entire overwatch and world of warcraft team helped as well to fix it this complicated bug. On June 14 2016 08:07 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I honestly wonder why this took so long. And why did they deliberately miss it out from the patch notes? Too embarrassed to include it in? On June 14 2016 08:16 HugoBallzak wrote: 6 months later. Athenau's post blowing the whistle about the bug was made on 31 may. I genuinely laugh at people that can stay 5 monthes without even noticing the bug and then scream because Blizzard takes 2 weeks to fix it. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
On June 14 2016 07:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Or they took 15 seconds to fix the bug, and then waited for the next patch. If that were the case, it would be in todays patch. EDIT Never mind the patch is tomorrow lol but its still missing from the patch notes for some reason. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
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necrosexy
451 Posts
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riotjune
United States3393 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On June 14 2016 07:56 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Or they took 15 seconds to fix the bug, and then waited for the next patch. Or people on this forum are very naive about the effort required to fix bugs. | ||
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 14 2016 13:36 Cascade wrote: Or people on this forum are very naive about the effort required to fix bugs. Having briefly worked in the industry, I'm perfectly willing to believe that fixing this particular bug involved little more than changing a few numbers, and took almost no time at all. Scheduling a patch has significantly more overhead since you need approval from management, need to schedule downtime if needed etc, so doing a patch for a single bug isn't worth it unless the bug is really severe. | ||
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On June 14 2016 13:49 ZigguratOfUr wrote: Having briefly worked in the industry, I'm perfectly willing to believe that fixing this particular bug involved little more than changing a few numbers, and took almost no time at all. Scheduling a patch has significantly more overhead since you need approval from management, need to schedule downtime if needed etc, so doing a patch for a single bug isn't worth it unless the bug is really severe. It can also be a much deeper issue that needed a fair amount of work and testing. Judging from how fast it was done, probably not too deep though. People seem to think that "fixing" things in sc2 is super easy. "Common blizzard, fix protoss". "Fix e-sports". "fix WCS". "Fix mech". "Fix this bug". As if it could be done in half an hour, but they choose not to do it. I don't know the details of this bug, but I get a bit worked up by everyone assuming it is trivial to "fix" everything, when they actually don't have a clue about what is actually needed. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Why am I not surprised. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On June 14 2016 15:15 Cascade wrote: actually tweaking a number and changing the reference for the button wouldn't take longer then an hour for someone experienced in the editor. Maybe even 10 minutes if you know what you're looking for. Then you just need to test it in-game if it works and that's it.It can also be a much deeper issue that needed a fair amount of work and testing. Judging from how fast it was done, probably not too deep though. People seem to think that "fixing" things in sc2 is super easy. "Common blizzard, fix protoss". "Fix e-sports". "fix WCS". "Fix mech". "Fix this bug". As if it could be done in half an hour, but they choose not to do it. I don't know the details of this bug, but I get a bit worked up by everyone assuming it is trivial to "fix" everything, when they actually don't have a clue about what is actually needed. Obviously "fixing protoss" or other things would require much more testing and brainstorming (and will) then fixing a simple bug. but changing a stat is simple. | ||
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Penev
28481 Posts
hue | ||
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moon1ight
Iceland153 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On June 14 2016 17:45 Nazara wrote: actually tweaking a number and changing the reference for the button wouldn't take longer then an hour for someone experienced in the editor. Maybe even 10 minutes if you know what you're looking for. Then you just need to test it in-game if it works and that's it. Obviously "fixing protoss" or other things would require much more testing and brainstorming (and will) then fixing a simple bug. but changing a stat is simple. How do you know that's all that has to be done though? How do you know it's not a symptom of some deeper issue? If it indeed is just a parameter that the cat changed, then yes, they only thing you have to do is to change a single character and it "should" work. I'm not saying it necessarily is more complicated, just that we can't be annoyed that it took them two weeks to fix when we don't know what the problem was. | ||
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Quateras
Germany867 Posts
On June 14 2016 15:39 MockHamill wrote: It is Tuesday on EU, the patch has been applied and the bug is still present. Why am I not surprised. Because the patch didnt happen yet, Europe gets the patch wednesday morning as always. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 14 2016 22:49 Cascade wrote: How do you know that's all that has to be done though? How do you know it's not a symptom of some deeper issue? If it indeed is just a parameter that the cat changed, then yes, they only thing you have to do is to change a single character and it "should" work. I'm not saying it necessarily is more complicated, just that we can't be annoyed that it took them two weeks to fix when we don't know what the problem was. Because the guy who reported the bug looked it up in the editor and saw the error there. Having worked with the editor myself, I would be very very surprised to hear this took longer than 30 minutes. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On June 14 2016 22:49 Cascade wrote: How do you know that's all that has to be done though? How do you know it's not a symptom of some deeper issue? If it indeed is just a parameter that the cat changed, then yes, they only thing you have to do is to change a single character and it "should" work. I'm not saying it necessarily is more complicated, just that we can't be annoyed that it took them two weeks to fix when we don't know what the problem was. Stop pretending. Everybody who did at least some data editing knows, that this particular bug doesn't take longer than 10 minutes to fix. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
We got new emotes but no cyclone fix. Guess the Cyclone fix will be included in the Christmas update. | ||
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FoxDog
170 Posts
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Athenau
569 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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ZigguratOfUr
Iraq16955 Posts
On June 15 2016 03:50 MockHamill wrote: Why not in EU? We are 9 hours ahead so the patch should be here first. How exactly do timezones affect when the people at Blizzard decide to deploy the patch to your server? | ||
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Elentos
55550 Posts
On June 15 2016 03:50 MockHamill wrote: Why not in EU? We are 9 hours ahead so the patch should be here first. We didn't even have server maintenance yet so I have no idea why you're surprised about anything. EU never gets patches before NA. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
On June 15 2016 00:17 RoomOfMush wrote: Because the guy who reported the bug looked it up in the editor and saw the error there. Having worked with the editor myself, I would be very very surprised to hear this took longer than 30 minutes. Oh, he actually found the bug? I thought he just patched on top of it, but I didn't read in detail and haven't worked in the editor myself. Thanks. | ||
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Loccstana
United States833 Posts
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
I tested this several times. If you attack-move the cyclones goes to range 5 instead of 7 when you lock on. This patch only fixed the cooldown, the rest of cyclone bugs remains. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 15 2016 18:47 MockHamill wrote: Yes auto-cast is still broken. I tested this several times. If you attack-move the cyclones goes to range 5 instead of 7 when you lock on. This patch only fixed the cooldown, the rest of cyclone bugs remains. S.o mentioned it on this forum long ago but zero respond from blizzard. Even roach can touch cyclone with this bug. | ||
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JackONeill
861 Posts
On June 15 2016 16:32 Loccstana wrote: They should also fix the bug where it has only 30 hp per supply. Well done sir. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On June 15 2016 18:47 MockHamill wrote: Yes auto-cast is still broken. I tested this several times. If you attack-move the cyclones goes to range 5 instead of 7 when you lock on. This patch only fixed the cooldown, the rest of cyclone bugs remains. so until the auto-cast bug is fixed, cyclones are still useless in large battles. range 5 cyclones get outranged by: marauders (concussive shells provide some added banter) landed vikings non-upgraded liberators immortals stalkers non-upgraded colossus upgraded hydras. plus, you have to get within equal firing range of stimmed marines, queens and non-upgraded hydras. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
so until the auto-cast bug is fixed, cyclones are still useless in large battles. range 5 cyclones get outranged by You can still select 8 cyclones and manually cast it on units like tanks and immortals, right? You don't need attack-move to do everything for you. Even if it worked perfectly it would be suboptimal due to locking effectively random targets with no focus fire | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On June 15 2016 20:26 Cyro wrote: You can still select 8 cyclones and manually cast it on units like tanks and immortals, right? You don't need attack-move to do everything for you. Even if it worked perfectly it would be suboptimal due to locking effectively random targets with no focus fire I disagree. in a game as fast as sc2, lock-on needs to be compatible with attack-move. have you tried manual lock-on during a large battle? for example, against a roach/hydra army? or a stimmed marine/marauder/tank army? how did that work out for you? /s every other AA ground unit is an attack-move unit. hydras are attack-move units. stalkers are attack-move units. goliaths were attack-move units. why in your mind can't cyclones be attack-move units? If you don't want cyclones to lock-on to random targets, you would turn auto-cast off. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
Basically, it's using the A-move behavior of the default weapon, but the lock-on itself still triggers at range 7. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On June 15 2016 20:51 Athenau wrote: Lock-on range is still 7 when a-moving. If you A-move, it will lock on at range 7, then keep moving to the position you clicked on (if it's > 5 range from the target), or stop at 5 range (if your click was <= 5 range from the target). Basically, it's using the A-move behavior of the default weapon, but the lock-on itself still triggers at range 7. that's not what I'm seeing. immortals and marauders outrange cyclones when lock-on is autocast and you attack-move towards the target (aka, range 5). | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On June 15 2016 20:59 SHODAN wrote: that's not what I'm seeing. immortals and marauders outrange cyclones when lock-on is autocast and you attack-move towards the target (aka, range 5). I just tested it. Lock-on locks on at range 7. You can easily see this because the lock-on animation plays _before_ the cyclone stops moving at range 5. You can test this against a marine in a bunker (range 6). If you A-click on a position 7 range away, you'll get the lock without taking a hit. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On June 15 2016 21:05 Athenau wrote: I just tested it. Lock-on locks on at range 7. You can easily see this because the lock-on animation plays _before_ the cyclone stops moving at range 5. You can test this against a marine in a bunker (range 6). If you A-click on a position 7 range away, you'll get the lock without taking a hit. hey, you're right. it's sometimes hard to tell with moving units... but with marauders on hold position, or marines in a bunker, cyclone does lock on from 7. my bad | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
On June 15 2016 21:13 SHODAN wrote: hey, you're right. it's sometimes hard to tell with moving units... but with marauders on hold position, or marines in a bunker, cyclone does lock on from 7. my bad You can also A-click close to a unit, then immediately move command back when you see the lock-on to avoid taking hits. It doesn't really work on 6 range units like immortals and stalkers unless you're super quick, but it's practical to do against anything with less range (like marines). This is annoying, but I don't know if it's a big deal. If you have a ball of cyclones, you're going to need to get pretty close anyway for all of them to get locks (so A-move is fine), and if you just want to carefully poke with one or two you can use the manual cast. | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1107 Posts
On June 15 2016 21:18 Athenau wrote: You can also A-click close to a unit, then immediately move command back when you see the lock-on to avoid taking hits. It doesn't really work on 6 range units like immortals and stalkers unless you're super quick, but it's practical to do against anything with less range (like marines). In practice, this is annoying, but I don't know if this is a big deal. If you have a ball of cyclones, you're going to need to get pretty close anyway for all of them to get locks (so A-move is fine), and if you just want to carefully poke with one or two you can use the manual cast. I guess if you want to use cyclones as a core skirmish/AA unit, you'll need something to tank the damage while you get in range. hellions and cyclones are about the same speed, so that is some nice synergy. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
I disagree. in a game as fast as sc2, lock-on needs to be compatible with attack-move. have you tried manual lock-on during a large battle? for example, against a roach/hydra army? or a stimmed marine/marauder/tank army? how did that work out for you? /s Moving forward and locking 2+ onto each immortal, colossus etc sounds pretty effective. It's obviously not designed to work well against an army of marines at the moment but a bunch of other units work well there (marines, hellions, tanks) | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16710 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + what's the default for patrol? | ||
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TedBurtle
Belarus201 Posts
On June 15 2016 20:50 SHODAN wrote: I disagree. in a game as fast as sc2, lock-on needs to be compatible with attack-move. have you tried manual lock-on during a large battle? for example, against a roach/hydra army? or a stimmed marine/marauder/tank army? how did that work out for you? /s every other AA ground unit is an attack-move unit. hydras are attack-move units. stalkers are attack-move units. goliaths were attack-move units. why in your mind can't cyclones be attack-move units? If you don't want cyclones to lock-on to random targets, you would turn auto-cast off. Have you tried rapid fire? lock on super easy and fast ;/ | ||
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Roboroadkill
United States16 Posts
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 16 2016 04:53 Roboroadkill wrote: Will the fixing of this bug affect cyclone usage in any way? Yes, it will now have one less bug affecting it. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2647 Posts
Bug fix says it shouldn't get to 5 range after using lock on, they do inch forward while the ability is activating, but thats just a bit, nowhere near the 2 range difference. | ||
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realityyy
Germany50 Posts
Being able to kite entire armies witout problem is a really great idea. | ||
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nath
United States1788 Posts
On June 17 2016 03:55 realityyy wrote: Great change, played 3 games today and i will quit sc2 again. Being able to kite entire armies witout problem is a really great idea. they can't even kite roaches without taking hits, so not sure what you're getting at. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
The cyclone should also stop moving forward after autocasting, if anyone is seeing instances of it running forward all the way to range 5 after autocasting from an a-move, that's a bug and should be reported. Due to the animation a little slip forward is acceptable, but if it's running into 5 range like before the 3.2.0 patch, that's a big. In this case they should just make the main weapon 7 range to mitigate the slip if they're unwilling to completely fix it . | ||
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Drfilip
Sweden590 Posts
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The_Frozen_Inferno
Canada98 Posts
Two important mechanics to understand about abilities in SC2: 1. There are 2 broad kinds of effect abilities - Instant and Target. - Instant abilities are the ones like Stim. Because they happen 'instantly', they do not enter into the unit's order queue. This is why marines can run and stim while running. Similar mechanics allow banshees to cloak and decloak while on-the-move. Using these abilities does not interrupt the unit's current actions. - Target abilities, like psi storm, are entered into a unit's order queue. The when issued the Storm command, the high Templar drops its current activities (such as moving) and activates its ability that in turn creates various effects. 2. Auto-Cast is a field on abilities that attempt to activate an ability without needing player input (eg. hotkey press); usually there are requirement fields that are added in to determine when the ability should attempt to cast itself. In the case of Forcefield (forcefields are considered units), it auto-casts the [Ability - Instant: Suicide] on itself in the case where a unit with the [Massive] tag is within melee range of it. *** Lock-On is a [Target] type ability. It now has a cooldown of 6 blizzard seconds and a max casting range of 7. It also has a max autocast range of 7. As a Target-type ability, its activation cancels standing orders or must wait for its current queued order to finish. Note that auto-cast is of a lower priority than human input. So auto-cast will NOT override a human-issued Move command for example. The behavior some players are seeing can be explained in these way with these mechanics in mind: Case 1: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given an attack command directly on the marine bunker (range 6) II. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, it attempts to close into maximum attack range from the target III. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because of priority IV. Once the cyclone reaches its weapon attack range of 5, it immediately begins attacking. While attacking, auto-cast still does not have priority; it cannot interrupt the fire sequence V. ONLY once the cyclone 'stops' or 'holds position' or otherwise go idle does an auto-cast ability have a chance to cast itself. Case 2: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given a Scan-move command NEAR the location of the marine bunker (range 6) II. With Scan-move (or A-move as it is often called) as the current order, it will Move in that direction until the weapon scans a target that it can fire at. III. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, the scan range is also 5. IV. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because the manually-issued Scan-move is still priority V. Once the cyclone scans a viable attack target at range 5, it shifts from Scan-move into Attack mode. However, in this briefest of moments in between the two states, Auto-cast can interject itself in the gap of actions and Lock-On will auto-cast itself *** If you attempt to use only a move-command to drive the Cyclone near the bunker, you will find that the Cyclone will never use its Lock-On ability either - whether it's at range 7, 5 or 1. However, the instant you press the 'stop' or 'hold position' then the targeting ability will have an opportunity to auto-cast. AFTER using Lock-On, the Cyclone does not inch forward or attempt to use its basic weapon. In fact, while Lock-On is activated, its normal attack is suppressed or turned off. However, the crux of the matter is that Lock-on is not even being used, nor is it given a chance to be auto-cast when at range 7. *note that the first moment of getting Lock-On to start up and actually 'lock on' is what cannot be used while on the Move; however, the ensuing missile barrage effect can be used on the Move. **** Of course, you can manually cast Lock-on by pressing C. Like with any other Target-type ability, issuing this order cancels any other standing order. Likewise, it can be shift-queued to make the cyclone run as soon as it locks on at maximum range. Interestingly, Lock-On is not set to be a smart-command for Right-click on the Cyclone. Right-clicking on an enemy unit defaults to Attack as usual. It could, however, with the check of a box be made to cast Lock-On instead. | ||
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Athenau
569 Posts
Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because the manually-issued Scan-move is still priority But this isn't true. If you A-move close to a marine (range 5) you can see lock-on triggers before you enter range 5. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
But seriously, the unit still has not been fixed. 4 supply? It's the same supply as a tempest lol. Though that may be more a balance issue of the tempest than the cyclone... But eh...an auto turret has more DPS/health than a cyclone. An auto-turret is zero supply. Why would i ever want to make any more than 1-2 cyclones per game when 2 ravens can basically provide me with the DPS/Health of potentially EIGHT cyclones lol (4 auto turret per raven, every auto-turret is approximately equivalent to 1 cyclone). I don't understand why there's some anti-Terran bias at blizzard "we don't want players making mass cyclones" yet every single pro-game of Z/P is literally 100% roach/ravager spam or adepts @_@ The unit needs a re-design/number changes/supply decrease imo. Great the bug is fixed, the unit itself still is not addressed. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 17 2016 08:43 avilo wrote: Aaaaaaaaand cyclones are still garbage. -_- But seriously, the unit still has not been fixed. 4 supply? It's the same supply as a tempest lol. Though that may be more a balance issue of the tempest than the cyclone... But eh...an auto turret has more DPS/health than a cyclone. An auto-turret is zero supply. Why would i ever want to make any more than 1-2 cyclones per game when 2 ravens can basically provide me with the DPS/Health of potentially EIGHT cyclones lol (4 auto turret per raven, every auto-turret is approximately equivalent to 1 cyclone). I don't understand why there's some anti-Terran bias at blizzard "we don't want players making mass cyclones" yet every single pro-game of Z/P is literally 100% roach/ravager spam or adepts @_@ The unit needs a re-design/number changes/supply decrease imo. Great the bug is fixed, the unit itself still is not addressed. Massable or not doesnt matter.I just want to see them in action in mid game just like blizzard said. Oh wait.....pros still produce 1-2 cyclones in early game and forget it 4ver as usual. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On June 14 2016 22:40 Sapphire.lux wrote: With the fix, we might be able to put much more pressure with Cyclones. Might... | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On June 17 2016 06:19 The_Frozen_Inferno wrote: Case 1: I. While auto-cast is on, the cyclone is given an attack command directly on the marine bunker (range 6) II. Because the cyclone's basic weapon is range 5, it attempts to close into maximum attack range from the target III. Even though the manual and auto-cast range of Lock-On is 7, auto-cast does not kick-in on the approach towards the bunker because of priority IV. Once the cyclone reaches its weapon attack range of 5, it immediately begins attacking. While attacking, auto-cast still does not have priority; it cannot interrupt the fire sequence V. ONLY once the cyclone 'stops' or 'holds position' or otherwise go idle does an auto-cast ability have a chance to cast itself. This is not the normal behavior of the unit. Go into a game or unit tester and see for yourself. It usually autocasts properly when it runs into 7 range. This is expected behavior. However, sometimes it doesn't do that. When I tested it right after the patch it initially took me about 10 tries to replicate where it finally ran into 5 range and started shooting its main weapon without locking on. I did nothing special or different, I was careful to start the cyclone from the same distance away and a-move to the same location. You can use multiple and larger numbers of targets to get it to happen, but the cylcones cycling targets due to other cyclones locking on and bumping into each other seems to mitigate it. Though I did see up to 3 of 6 cyclones decide to fire their main weapons once instead of locking on in testing the unit to see if this bug had been resolved. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Then Cyclones would be more reliable and we could balance from there. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
The good They are fun to use You can use it to put pressure on the opponent in the early midgame. This is good versus Protoss since you be aggressive instead of having to be defensive when using mech in TvP. The bad They produce too slowly They are not good enough to be worth their supply in a battle. Versus Protoss They are hardcountered by Disruptors. If they build Disruptors all your cyclones instantly becomes worthless. Their is no real counterplay to the Disruptors when you have invested much in cyclones. Your Cyclone/hellion force can never reach the Disruptors, all you can do is to run away. Air do not work since you cannot invest enough into banshees or liberators to get to kill their Disruptors before their stalkers kill your air units. If you play bio you could maybe do drops all over the place as a counterplay but if you use mech you have basically lost the game the moment they start building Disruptors and you have 10+ cyclones. Blink stalkers also hard counter cyclones, just blink in to get a surround of the cyclones and you have basically won the game. Versus Zerg Cyclone/hellion does not really work against a Zerg player that make units. Only if Zerg plays very greedy can you overwhelm their forces. Ling/bling/muta hardcounter cyclone/hellion and so does pure roaches and roach/ravager. Basically their is no realistic way for Zerg to lose against Cyclone except if gets very greedy. It i is possible that they could work against Ultras, I do not know since it is hard to survive midgame if you invest in cyclones. Summary: The cyclone is a fun unit to use but it does not really work against opponents that know what they are doing. They have too many counters and are not strong enough in straight up battle. They are basically not worth their supply. Solution Lower their supply cost to 3. Increase their hitponts from 120 to 140. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
If it doesn't scale with upgrades it won't be massed so Blizzard would be happy and Terrans would have something new out of the Factory. I just hope they decide to make it either ground to ground or ground to air only so that it is specialized enough to not just be another homogenous hp sponge or source of dps. I think a mobile ground to air rocket battery could be a pretty cool unit if it was handled well. Imagine a grounded anti-armor Valkyrie with Goliath range, that'd definitely mince up some Tempests and Broodlords. An 11 range ground to air "dumb fire" attack similar to how Lurker spines work, fast units could move out of the way, slow units would take a beating. + Show Spoiler + Hell it could even be the Factory spell caster people have been looking for. Perhaps with that armor reduction drone from beta, or any one of a number of campaign abilities. There's an autocast kind of corruption ability from the campaign sentries, as well as an attack speed increase for friendly units. Maybe some kind of siege speed increase, that'd be different and definitely change how Tanks play right now. Imagine if Tanks could siege up in a fraction of the time they do now, they might even edge out the mighty Liberator in zone control. Strong abilities like this would justify the supply and build times and it'd be pretty sweet. Lastly, of all the stats they could possibly increase I pray it is not movement speed. We really do not need any more fast units, it's gotten out of control. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 16:32 MockHamill wrote: These are my experience post patch with the Cyclone. The good You can use it to put pressure on the opponent in the early midgame. This is good versus Protoss since you be aggressive instead of having to be defensive when using mech in TvP. The bad They are not good enough to be worth their supply in a battle. [b] I think that's that point and it would be nice if that were the case up to pro play. A tool to put some pressure on when going mech, but not strong enough that you would want to make an army out of. Because it's balanced all around the lock on kiting, i think it's a unit that you HAVE to put pressure with, because as a simple stand and fight unit it's not so good. A sort of reaper if you will. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won. I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 20:35 MockHamill wrote: Well until Blizzard improves the cyclone I will not use them anymore. In their current state they are like BCs. A good way to throw away a game you should have otherwise won. I guess they can be used for smurfing though, if you are 1-2 leagues better then your opponent they could work. Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Problem is lots of pressure better for less resources. Hellions are better for killing workers for much less investment, banshees forces detection from the opponent, a medicac with marines can do almost anything etc It is also easy to lose the cyclones to speedlings, they really do not give much map control in any matchup except maybe versus Protoss in some instances. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:56 MockHamill wrote: Problem is lots of pressure better for less resources. Hellions are better for killing workers for much less investment, banshees forces detection from the opponent, a medicac with marines can do almost anything etc It is also easy to lose the cyclones to speedlings, they really do not give much map control in any matchup except maybe versus Protoss in some instances. Yeah, it's against Protoss i could see it most useful in early game pressure. Against Zerg Hellions and Tankvacs are great. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 00:02 RoomOfMush wrote: Terran already has plenty of units for that. What terran doesnt have is reliable mech anti-air. The design decisions with the Cyclone dont make much sense to me. I agree but Blizz has been very stubborn about not introducing a Goliath 2.0 and it's happy to see air being the main counter to air. It's an awful decision IMO but it's not going to change. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 18 2016 00:07 Sapphire.lux wrote: I agree but Blizz has been very stubborn about not introducing a Goliath 2.0 and it's happy to see air being the main counter to air. It's an awful decision IMO but it's not going to change. Because fucking viking still exists.Viking and corruptor were a mistake. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 00:25 seemsgood wrote: Because fucking viking still exists.Viking and corruptor were a mistake. The entire idea that air should be the best counter to air was a mistake. They are holding on to that with 2 expansions now, so they are not going to change it. Air wars are here to stay. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1426 Posts
On June 17 2016 23:05 Sapphire.lux wrote: Yeah, maybe. I just don't think the unit was ever intended to be a core unit for mech, nor should it IMO, but more of a early game pressure and specialist (Ultras) and raider. Like, have 4,5 of them and roam around the map if you have the APM and attention. When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 03:04 jinjin5000 wrote: When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something. Yeah but, when they introduced HOTS they said for Terran the goal was to make mech viable in al 3 MUs, never happened. When they introduced LOTV they said the same. Not to long ago they said "do we really want mech?" So, what they say and what they do are 2 very different things. They will say anything when there is something to sell, but when it becomes clear that the goal is not in reach, instead of admitting it and working on it, they deflect and rewrite intentions. So the Cyclone, it should have been a goliath. What it is, IMO, IF mech ever becomes viable, is a unit that can put pressure. Since Hellions are extremely limited compared to Vultures, it's a sort of replacement. It's amazing how 6 factory units in SC2 have so much less use and synergy compared to 3 factory units of BW. Ego or design fail? Probably both. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
On June 18 2016 04:05 ecnahc wrote: Air to ground is just way too ridiculous. That used to be reserved for capital ships and well controlled Mutalisks. It's not even an air to air issue, it's the fact that units like the Banshee, Medic, Oracle and Voidray exist combined with unlimited unit selection and you get easy to control extremely high dps air balls. I wonder what would happen to sc2 if nothing but Mutas, Scourge, Dropships, Wraith, and Corsair were ported over. Combine that with a Capital ship rebalance and you'd have an interesting dynamic. I agree with the idea but not the specifics. Banshees Oracles, Voids, Mutas, can be fought by ground easily. It's Libs, BLs, Tempests that are the problem IMO. These 3 in numbers become impossible to counter with ground, and force air vs air. Bah, words wasted in a forum. I don't know what DK sees as great in air battles, but i know i'l never see it. | ||
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ecnahc
United States395 Posts
The simple fact that the other four units exist and possess the power they do greatly influences the game. The amount of viable openings you have if you can actually take terrain into account is absurd. Air play should be an investment, not a requirement five minutes into half of the matchups. MSC could be safely removed, Mutalisk regeneration reverted and Tanks put back on the ground where they belong. The flip side of slowing air play down is that the option to drop or take advantage of a greedy build with a clever all in still exists. Giving you more diverse strategies as well. SC2 in its current state is essentially a rush to your most efficient composition, outside of a few situations, this drastically lowers the number of options you have. Currently you are shackled by the fact that crippling, game ending damage can come from any direction after a certain amount of time has passed. I'm not saying the option to avoid terrain shouldn't exist I'm just saying that 3:30 Oracles, 5:15 Prisms, and 5:15 mine drops should not be a matter of course, rather a conscious decision you make. Putting Dropship afterburner at Fusion Core and suddenly the standard Terran win condition of queueing rally car speed drops while Zerg runs around in circles defending whIle they pray they can reach Hive intact and pop out their own nonsense no longer exists. Put Warp tech at Beacon and suddenly maps become a whole lot bigger. Expansion choice becomes far more important! Choke points become relevant! This is quite similiar to how ZvZ plays out currently, you have multiple openings and multiple defensive and aggressive strategies because as long as you scout that Spire Mutalisks are entirely defendable with Spores and Queens while you progress towards your own answer to prevent the critical mass of Mutalisks and the map control they provide from overwhelming you. Of course there are tons of other things going on that influence ZvZ, it's hard to deny how different the game state feels when you do not have to think about that 5 minute nuke coming your way and dictating your every movement. I agree with the words on a forum thing, but I also feel that the more you get this kind of shit out the less it bothers you in the actual game. Stress relief if you will. | ||
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seemsgood
5527 Posts
On June 18 2016 03:04 jinjin5000 wrote: When David Kim was introducing cyclone to genealogy public, it was said it was intended to be factory AA Don't know why it isn't some kind of long range AA or something. Don't know why they nerfed both air + ground and didn't keep its AA capability and turn it into AA specialist. | ||
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Riner1212
United States337 Posts
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