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On April 22 2016 18:41 MockHamill wrote:
Thor change is good but Thor needs more range if order to be able to fight Tempest/Carriers/BroodLords. Their anti-air DPS should also be higher.
Also, if Protoss goes air and Terran counters by going Thors, he can easily switch back to Immortals and collect a free win.
I forsee a huge problem in TvZ with this change though. If Zerg goes mass Corruptors, Liberators will not work any more. So Zerg can go around killing your based with mass Corrupters faster than you can catch them with your Thors.
I guess going for a base trade will be a viable option though.
I don't think it's such a bad thing that libs are getting less support.. I personally don't like the way the unit functions so I will enjoy the change! and I play z :D
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On April 27 2016 01:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:48 phodacbiet wrote:On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote:
Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity >< And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons. this is what concerns me too. Phoenix openers are just good. This is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin of mutas in PvZ.
Completely agree with you, now Mutalisks are unviable in ZvP when they were already difficult/niche to use in the match up since Protoss opens blind Stargate because...well why wouldn't you open Phoenix? It's a great opener, takes map control and kills drones every time even at the pro level.
Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit to the go to "build 8 and no more because it's wasted gas" in ZvT and an opening unit that has to be transitioned out of in ZvZ, all of these anti mutalisk changes are just striking me as completely unnecessary and over kill.
The Mutalisk takes alot of skill to use effectively, why is it being removed from most parts of the game? For dumb units like the Ravager and invulnerable Nydus? This is not the right direction.
Liberators receiving an anti - air nerf is more then justified. A unit that can a move Mutalisks, A move Corruptors, shut down mining bases and provide massive DPS in frontal engagements? Yea, a nerf is a bit overdue.
Speed Banshees are absolutely terrifying and a nightmare to deal with, if this change goes through I foresee the days of Hellion/Banshee becoming super standard in ZvT, I've played a few games and they are fantastic hatchery killers that move almost as fast as Mutalisks.
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Mutas are in such a silly place if 2 out of 3 races needs +bio on their AA structure. If they start giving terrans trouble, here's betting the missile turret is going to get +bio as well.
The latest thor change essentially turns it into an obese goliath. Many of its problems stems from its obesity. Might as well turn it into a goliath.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
Protoss opens blind Stargate because...well why wouldn't you open Phoenix?
Because it's not the best opener against most of the popular and strong ZvP all ins that contribute largely to high Z winrates (especially on certain maps) at the moment.
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Actually all the strong ZvP allins are basically designed to work around the pheonix at the moment.
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
In what way?
------
Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit
Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field
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What about nerf the regen of the mutas insted of all this +bio damage?? Normal units have a 0.27 points per old blizz second, mutas 1 hit point. We can get a middle point there.
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Liberator
Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now?
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote:
Liberator
Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now?
7x2 (+1 per upgrade)
vs new:
4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade)
So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved.
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On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote:
Liberator
Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved.
Thanks
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On April 27 2016 05:39 Cyro wrote:In what way? ------ Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field
Ling bling queen all ins?
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On April 27 2016 01:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 01:58 fenrysk wrote:
If they're going to change the Thor to single target anti-air, why don't they just bring back the payload transformation from HotS. Should never have been removed!
I completely agree, and now they're trying to feed us something worse as a replacement
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On April 27 2016 07:13 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 05:39 Cyro wrote:In what way? ------ Especially since Mutalisks already went from the go to harass unit Pretty hard counters have been emphasized instead of adjusting mutalisks and some other core units (like stalker AA-vs-light damage) to be able to play without those hard counters on the field Ling bling queen all ins?
I don't understand what you're trying to say here
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Don't like the supply increase for the swarm host. If I get 5 of them just for harassing it takes me 20 supply which I no longer have for my army. Not good, I guess.
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I want they implement thor change ASAP to let pro players find out because it doesn't hurt current meta anyway.
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so does thor change mean that sky toss can used Void rays against mech now? Does it also mean that Void rays are finally good vs thors now with the charges?
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On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote:
Liberator
Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved.
when Mass stalkers are already decent against libs, thischange just makes blink stalker storm chargelot armies unbeatable in late game with libs at least
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United Kingdom20322 Posts
On April 27 2016 08:18 MiniFotToss wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 06:33 Cyro wrote:On April 27 2016 06:31 GGzerG wrote:
Liberator
Damage changed to 4 (+3 Light)
What is it before / now? 7x2 (+1 per upgrade) vs new: 4(+3 light)x2 (+1 per upgrade) So against an armored target with 1 base armor and no upgrades it got damage halved. when Mass stalkers are already decent against libs, thischange just makes blink stalker storm chargelot armies unbeatable in late game with libs at least
This is their anti air damage, the proposed change doesn't change damage vs ground or light air
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On April 26 2016 22:36 fLyiNgDroNe wrote:
even though not directly related to the changes proposed, i still don't understand how Blizzards game designers are ok with shooting pylons. Worst game design idea ever and the fact that this will stay as last version of SC2 just makes it sad and pathetic.
Now with photon cannon buff, maybe its time this shit is removed from the game?
No. Unless you are OK with huge buffs to gateway units.
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On April 27 2016 01:02 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2016 00:48 phodacbiet wrote:On April 26 2016 16:51 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2016 16:26 Hularuns wrote:
Liberator change is very interesting since they have replaced vikings, but this should change things.
Photon cannon change is confusing as fuck, protoss needs better defence, yeaaa. And Phoenixes are an incredibly good answer to mutas as well as blink stalkers being good against corruptors.
Swarm Host changes are full on facepalm. It wasn't so much the cost of swarm hosts that was stupid, it was the fact that they were so much supply. They need to be 2 supply. and 200/100, maybe then they can be worth getting, but they fill such a niche role that they can't take up potentially 1/3rd of a zerg's army supply for a bit of harassment every minute. The problem is that Phoenix is the only answer and thanks to increased economic start and delayed tech you have to open with SG every fucking time. Which means no diversity and "creativity" in PvZ. Though the problem is probably in the second section too - phoenix opener is simply good. You make damage to Zerg eco, scout Zerg, stop their scouting. If they want diversity in PvZ they need to address the problem of SG opener being too good vs. the rest. As I am a pessimistic person I am expecting a nerf to Protoss to boost the creativity >< And a slight cannon buff made phoenix worse? People still are going to open phoenixes vs zerg because it's just better for early game. Toss isn't going to open something else instead of stargate just because cannons got a +10 damage buff. What this will do is prevent zerg from surprise tech switching the toss, but other than that, still expect SG opening into immortals and eventually zealots archons. this is what concerns me too. Phoenix openers are just good. This is just an unnecessary nail in the coffin of mutas in PvZ.
Where is this "Phoenix openers are just good" idea coming from? Phoenix is an OK unit, but aside from denying the Muta switch, they are worse than the alternative at harassing as well as fighting. If I don't have to fear dying to Mutas instantly, why would I ever make Phoenixes, when I can harass the Zerg with Adepts or DTs and deal a ton more damage?
The one and only reason why every Protoss player and his mom is opening with Phoenix is because it's the only reliable way you can deal with Mutas. If Stalkers were good against Mutas no one would ever make Phoenixes.
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EPT
