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On April 22 2016 05:34 Qwyn wrote:
I'd like to see another alternative tested that encourages Protoss players to open with a tech other than Stargate rather than making mutas in ZvP a complete impossibility...
This is not the way to go about solving this problem! I am honestly not sure of a better alternative but I am confident that Blizzard has cause/effect mixed up in this case...
You mean Ravager bio nerf. But you don't want that!
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On April 22 2016 10:15 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +The problem is that I don't know how to solve the early game zerg shenanigans now that they don't want to nerf the ravager, and then nerfs regarding the immortal or the adept would not seem fair. 10 seconds off warpgate (OR chrono buff which does the same thing), overlord speed to lair, sane maps. Done.
I always thought making building warp-in chrono boostable would help a lot amd it increased the uncertainty of timing.
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On April 23 2016 02:18 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2016 21:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
please don't put Boxer and Avilo in the same paragraph. it destroys any credibility your post might have. Boxer was an innovator on the cutting edge of Brood War. Even in SC2 ... Slayers Team frying every opponent with +15 Blue Flame Hellions at MLG-Anaheim prompted the Hellion nerf. I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder 
I did innovate a ton of stuff in SC2, whether or not i won with it, that people always later adopt themselves because they realize how strong it is.
You do not have to win every single tourney to have come up with something people will copy. I happen to do it with every single race, at masters/gm level. Hell, i've even beaten some korean pros on ladder in the past simply because i understand the next level meta quite well, even if i don't have 800 apm. Also FYI, in those early MLGS, i won almost 99% of my TvTs going mech every game with blue flame hellions (the MLGs b4 MLG anaheim too where slayers basically copied the fast blue flame drop). Just ask anyone - people were deathly afraid of playing me in TvT. Admittedly my TvP / TvZ sucked monkey balls back then lol.
You invented or innovated NOTHING! Maybe whining, but that´s it. Reminds me of that one Simpsons episode where Stephen Hawking claims everything for himself. And your others races were Diamond level, maybe low masters at maximum. NA server that is. Stop making yourself better than you actually are.
And the only thing you did to Koreans was flaming them or accusing them of cheating/maphacking/stream sniping (parting f.e.). While your TvT was good, they never were afraid of you. They soon realised how turtly you play and adapted, like rush tactics etc. They even used your unstable mentality against you.
The only mech player people were afraid of in TvT was Goody because they knew how he played but still lost to it.
As if Slayers would adopt from an NA player that is constantly complaining.
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On April 25 2016 13:14 Tresher wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2016 02:18 avilo wrote:On April 22 2016 21:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
please don't put Boxer and Avilo in the same paragraph. it destroys any credibility your post might have. Boxer was an innovator on the cutting edge of Brood War. Even in SC2 ... Slayers Team frying every opponent with +15 Blue Flame Hellions at MLG-Anaheim prompted the Hellion nerf. I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder
I did innovate a ton of stuff in SC2, whether or not i won with it, that people always later adopt themselves because they realize how strong it is.
You do not have to win every single tourney to have come up with something people will copy. I happen to do it with every single race, at masters/gm level. Hell, i've even beaten some korean pros on ladder in the past simply because i understand the next level meta quite well, even if i don't have 800 apm. Also FYI, in those early MLGS, i won almost 99% of my TvTs going mech every game with blue flame hellions (the MLGs b4 MLG anaheim too where slayers basically copied the fast blue flame drop). Just ask anyone - people were deathly afraid of playing me in TvT. Admittedly my TvP / TvZ sucked monkey balls back then lol. You invented or innovated NOTHING! Maybe whining, but that´s it. Reminds me of that one Simpsons episode where Stephen Hawking claims everything for himself. And your others races were Diamond level, maybe low masters at maximum. NA server that is. Stop making yourself better than you actually are. And the only thing you did to Koreans was flaming them or accusing them of cheating/maphacking/stream sniping (parting f.e.). While your TvT was good, they never were afraid of you. They soon realised how turtly you play and adapted, like rush tactics etc. They even used your unstable mentality against you. The only mech player people were afraid of in TvT was Goody because they knew how he played but still lost to it. As if Slayers would adopt from an NA player that is constantly complaining.
Two players can come to the same conclusion. If anything, I'm sure there are others beside Avilo and SlayerS Terrans who discovered it on their own. Avilo is just being pathetic.
Who cares if someone creates a style if they cannot demonstrate its power? SlayerS dominated and showed the rest of the world.
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On April 25 2016 13:28 plogamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2016 13:14 Tresher wrote:On April 23 2016 02:18 avilo wrote:On April 22 2016 21:42 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
please don't put Boxer and Avilo in the same paragraph. it destroys any credibility your post might have. Boxer was an innovator on the cutting edge of Brood War. Even in SC2 ... Slayers Team frying every opponent with +15 Blue Flame Hellions at MLG-Anaheim prompted the Hellion nerf. I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder
I did innovate a ton of stuff in SC2, whether or not i won with it, that people always later adopt themselves because they realize how strong it is.
You do not have to win every single tourney to have come up with something people will copy. I happen to do it with every single race, at masters/gm level. Hell, i've even beaten some korean pros on ladder in the past simply because i understand the next level meta quite well, even if i don't have 800 apm. Also FYI, in those early MLGS, i won almost 99% of my TvTs going mech every game with blue flame hellions (the MLGs b4 MLG anaheim too where slayers basically copied the fast blue flame drop). Just ask anyone - people were deathly afraid of playing me in TvT. Admittedly my TvP / TvZ sucked monkey balls back then lol. You invented or innovated NOTHING! Maybe whining, but that´s it. Reminds me of that one Simpsons episode where Stephen Hawking claims everything for himself. And your others races were Diamond level, maybe low masters at maximum. NA server that is. Stop making yourself better than you actually are. And the only thing you did to Koreans was flaming them or accusing them of cheating/maphacking/stream sniping (parting f.e.). While your TvT was good, they never were afraid of you. They soon realised how turtly you play and adapted, like rush tactics etc. They even used your unstable mentality against you. The only mech player people were afraid of in TvT was Goody because they knew how he played but still lost to it. As if Slayers would adopt from an NA player that is constantly complaining. Two players can come to the same conclusion. If anything, I'm sure there are others beside Avilo and SlayerS Terrans who discovered it on their own. Avilo is just being pathetic. Who cares if someone creates a style if they cannot demonstrate its power? SlayerS dominated and showed the rest of the world.
Avilo was merely defending himself from the attack that he cant be named as an innovator of starcraft 2, the op you copied was an insult to me saying that i am wrong in invoking avilo as such, because i also named boxer among others which is an argument against those who say mech shouldnt be viable.
Unorthodox play was what sparked the interest in broodwar to begin with, people like boxer, nal_ra, saviOr, Yellow, bisu... people who innovated and found styles of play outside what was conventional.
Avilos innovation in this case of the blue flame hellion is adequate to qualify him as an innovator of sc2.
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Foxdog has 58 posts that do nothing except parrot the Avilo agenda in Avilo-centric topics.
Foxdog has no other posts.
i watched Goody roll Avilo multiple times in 2011 in TvTs. One of those times there is still a VOD kicking around so i posted it. I never saw Avilo beat Goody in a cahs prize event. Beating guys who are screwing around on ladder accounts in 2011 that they could care less about doesn't mean much. If Foxdog has some actual independent evidence of Avilo beating Goody he should post it. Otherwise, its just hearsay from someone who is probably sitting behind a VPN.
Boxer was a team owner. a great innovator and a great ambassador for both Brood War and SC2 competitive eSports. Do not compare Avilo to Boxer.
Avilo is an entertainer; Boxer was an esports competitor. Totally different jobs.
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I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder
You realize that Slayers-hellions were an opener and not actually a midgame harass style?
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On April 26 2016 01:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder You realize that Slayers-hellions were an opener and not actually a midgame harass style?
i remember how they would start a fight with the Hellions not in enemy vision. Get the enemy units to line up how they wanted.. and then in came the Hellions to deal max damage.
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On April 26 2016 01:22 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 01:01 Hider wrote:I was using blue flame hellion drops every TvT before slayers found out about it. Ask painuser or anyone that played the game at that time or played me on ladder You realize that Slayers-hellions were an opener and not actually a midgame harass style? i remember how they would start a fight with the Hellions not in enemy vision. Get the enemy units to line up how they wanted.. and then in came the Hellions to deal max damage.
It was a 1/1/1 variation that had a unique useage of reactor-switching + drop army into enemy base. Noone had used that specific build prior to that MLG.
The reason it was so strong was because it directly countered speedling openings. And if people responded with Roaches - which intuitively made sense because Roaches > blueflame - they also lost as Marines + medivacs could beat that. The only proper response was very quick baneling/speedlings.
After that it is true that people in general began experimenting alot more with Hellions. People also just never left any defenses at home to defend against hellion harass (at the time) so harassing was super easy w/ them as well.
But "Slayers hellions" was a build, not a playstyle.
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On April 26 2016 00:06 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Foxdog has 58 posts that do nothing except parrot the Avilo agenda in Avilo-centric topics.
Foxdog has no other posts.
i watched Goody roll Avilo multiple times in 2011 in TvTs. One of those times there is still a VOD kicking around so i posted it. I never saw Avilo beat Goody in a cahs prize event. Beating guys who are screwing around on ladder accounts in 2011 that they could care less about doesn't mean much. If Foxdog has some actual independent evidence of Avilo beating Goody he should post it. Otherwise, its just hearsay from someone who is probably sitting behind a VPN.
Boxer was a team owner. a great innovator and a great ambassador for both Brood War and SC2 competitive eSports. Do not compare Avilo to Boxer.
Avilo is an entertainer; Boxer was an esports competitor. Totally different jobs.
I would normally be inclined not to respond to ad hominem, but for the sake of others that might be watching i will.
You have apparantly exhausted your facts and arguments and being cornered by having to accept Avilo as an innovator albeit not a good one by your standard, you resort to this, personal attack and defamation of me.
He also is requesting a replay of Avilo beating GoOdy as if the winner of this contest was the better innovator, this logic is warped.
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here you go... its a few posts above.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/507961-community-feedback-update-april-21?page=7#129
On April 26 2016 01:51 FoxDog wrote:
He also is requesting a replay of Avilo beating GoOdy as if the winner of this contest was the better innovator, this logic is warped.
his claim is he won 99% of his TvT games. 99%? against what calibre of competition? i posted 1 loss against a low APM European Terran. We need 99 wins to balance that out. Where are all these wins? We can go through the VOD and check out the build order as well. He didn't use Hellions as an opener or harassment tactic in the VOD i posted.
Against weak and slow competition a much stronger mechanical player can open a game in 1000 ways and win. That same player can also employ any one of 1000 playstyles. In doing so they are innovating nothing regardless of the opener and playstyle they happen to use.
All this abstract philosophy talk is boring though. Post some VODs during this 99% TvT win rate and we can check it out.
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This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011?
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It's really tiring to see JimmyJRaynor always pop up. He's always there to save the day and share his knowledge on the internal workings of Blizzard, it's budget allocation or the absolute brilliance of its CEO, David Kim or any of their associates.
Always there to derail the thread, talking about things that people don't care about or that shouldn't be cared about.
This time it's about Avilo's supposed TvT win ratings and his claim to have played a role in innovating a match-up.
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On April 26 2016 03:13 InfCereal wrote:
This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011?
If people talk about goody, it must be 2011, right?
From what I gather the original topic only says that blizzard now mostly balances around official kespa opinions. And some PR stuff on why there are no updates on community feedback updates.
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On April 26 2016 04:01 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 03:13 InfCereal wrote:
This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011? If people talk about goody, it must be 2011, right?
Most probably, I guess that Goody is probably still playing a BO3 he started in 2011 anyway.
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On April 26 2016 03:51 B-royal wrote:
It's really tiring to see JimmyJRaynor always pop up. He's always there to save the day and share his knowledge on the internal workings of Blizzard, it's budget allocation or the absolute brilliance of its CEO, David Kim or any of their associates.
Always there to derail the thread, talking about things that people don't care about or that shouldn't be cared about.
This time it's about Avilo's supposed TvT win ratings and his claim to have played a role in innovating a match-up.
someone stated Avilo was an innovator like Boxer and i disagreed. I never made the claim. I merely disagreed and explained why. and then it just went on and on and on... Then Avilo jumped in and said .. ya man 5 years ago i had a 99% winnning rate in TvT.
i merely added my take on the derailed topic which actually contains real evidence and not hearsay unlike the individuals who hold opposing views.
and ya, i'm really enjoying LotV and i like how DK has changed LotV from HotS and i like the state of multiplayer from my random-race diamond league perspective which is only a small slice of the cross section of people Mr. Kim must please to make this a successful product. Greg Black is doing a great job too!
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On April 26 2016 07:55 Vanadiel wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 04:01 Branch.AUT wrote:On April 26 2016 03:13 InfCereal wrote:
This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011? If people talk about goody, it must be 2011, right? Most probably, I guess that Goody is probably still playing a BO3 he started in 2011 anyway.
Man, you just won this topic and nobody noticed it.
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On April 26 2016 08:53 AdrianHealeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 07:55 Vanadiel wrote:On April 26 2016 04:01 Branch.AUT wrote:On April 26 2016 03:13 InfCereal wrote:
This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011? If people talk about goody, it must be 2011, right? Most probably, I guess that Goody is probably still playing a BO3 he started in 2011 anyway. Man, you just won this topic and nobody noticed it.
I did
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On April 26 2016 08:53 AdrianHealeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2016 07:55 Vanadiel wrote:On April 26 2016 04:01 Branch.AUT wrote:On April 26 2016 03:13 InfCereal wrote:
This couldn't possibly be further from the original topic.
How did you avilo vs goody come up? Is this 2011? If people talk about goody, it must be 2011, right? Most probably, I guess that Goody is probably still playing a BO3 he started in 2011 anyway. Man, you just won this topic and nobody noticed it.
It was pretty "meh" to be honest.
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EPT
