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On April 10 2016 06:00 nunun wrote:
I'm in shock. The player got word that he was DQ'ed from someone else than Blizzard and got no chance to explain himself? How can that EVER happen? When is that EVER okay?
Welcome to WCS 2016: Where the best players are banned and they can't even run a qualifier right
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On April 10 2016 06:22 BeStFAN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." My point is that there's no real motive for Major. There's no benefit to be gained. Why do I feel like you're a giant retard? Because you've spent the last few posts implying major is either in your words "intellectually challenged or a cheater" over conduct outside of a tournament. Why do I now feel you're an even bigger retard now? Because now the only thing you're blasting major on is your worthless feelings about what it means to be a "professional" when it's pretty clear that he's under no contract, and was given no instructions on how to act on another server. There were other professionals active on NA and EU playing without the intent of qualifying; Naniwa was playing games on NA during qualification period knowing it would take and give ladder points. It's absurd to suggest that it's "wrong" or "unprofessional" to play games in an open ladder.
Besides the fact that he gave points to his teammate, of course.
Why do you feel the need to devolve to ad hominem repeatedly over the course of a conversation? It only shows how emotional you're being about this, weakening any argument you have, which is faulty at best. Why does there need to be motive for someone to be guilty? If I am pulling out of my driveway and I didn't look back because I didn't care enough to make sure I was behaving within the confines of the rules of the road, and I run over a person, should I just walk free? No, because even though I had no MOTIVE, I still committed the crime.
The conduct might not have been in the tournament proper, but it is quite logical to extend player integrity to a tournament's qualifier. If your actions before a tournament affect the tournament itself, it stands to logic that there should be rules and regulations about that. Throwing games to give people points is one such thing that has been historically known to be NOT okay in competitions. It makes complete sense, because you are impacting the chances of other people to participate, positively for some and negatively for others. Players should qualify for tournaments only on their own merit, not because someone is feeding another points. How do you not understand this? Has your fanaticism blinded you?
He IS under contract. Earlier in the thread, or perhaps it was the other one, people brought up points from the Battle.net TOS (or maybe it was the WCS Qualifier TOS, but the distinction is not important). Major violated those points. He violated them after affirming that he would follow them. You know how when you install a program you have to agree to the "End User License Agreement" or whatever? Don't you have to do that when you sign up for Battle.net? He WAS given instructions on how to behave on the server, he just didn't follow them. So, no, you're wrong on this matter too.
Other professional gamers playing without the intent of qualifying has no pertinence to his situation or actions, for two reasons. Firstly, because if other people jump off a cliff, that doesn't necessarily mean you should follow suit. Secondly, because Naniwa playing (hypothetically) to the best of his ability against others is actually to the benefit of the competition. It provides more games at a high level to more players. More games means more accurate rankings. Just because he can't qualify doesn't change that they still took the top players from the qualification round and just didn't include him. They still took the best players from the region with honest games under their belt. What Major does by giving free points has absolutely no relation to this.
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On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that.
The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally.
+ Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating.
Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted?
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On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted?
I don't see the point of you personally coaching Major though. I don't see it as irresponsible, i see major as the victim of shitty qualifier design. you should be allowed to leave a ladder game without getting kicked out of tournaments, lol. the fault here is blizzard's
if you don't believe major then don't, but don't act as if you know the truth
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Out of curiosity if major get disqualified for match fixing in a game vs lambo which happened 4h before midnight... how about bunny vs shadown 10 min before midnight? And could we check all the games a pro player played the past 24h before the deadline? I'm sure there are many suspicious wins....
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On April 10 2016 06:49 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? I don't see the point of you personally coaching Major though. I don't see it as irresponsible, i see major as the victim of shitty qualifier design. you should be allowed to leave a ladder game without getting kicked out of tournaments, lol. the fault here is blizzard's if you don't believe major then don't, but don't act as if you know the truth
When have I ever stated that I KNOW the truth? All I know is what makes sense. What he did does not make sense unless he was extremely ignorant/short-sighted, or cheating. I'm not coaching him, I'm trying to determine the full truth. Saying that "maybe he will do things differently from now" was just a ray of hope -_-;
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On April 10 2016 06:38 Jealous wrote:
The conduct might not have been in the tournament proper, but it is quite logical to extend player integrity to a tournament's qualifier. If your actions before a tournament affect the tournament itself, it stands to logic that there should be rules and regulations about that. Throwing games to give people points is one such thing that has been historically known to be NOT okay in competitions. It makes complete sense, because you are impacting the chances of other people to participate, positively for some and negatively for others. Players should qualify for tournaments only on their own merit, not because someone is feeding another points.
This all hinges on the assumption that A: Major gave up wins to Lambo to help him qualify to WCS Europe and subsequently B: he wanted to disrupt the competition by doing so meaning he's a nasty cheater according to you.
So 4hours i think before the ladder ended i had 2 games vs lambo one on dusk and one on prion. one i left immediatly after i qued to go take my medicine and to the bathroom(wasnt feeling to well as already mentioned)since i forgotten to take it. and than we played again on prion and i lost i did a proxy reaper didnt work tried 1base banshee didnt work game went on for like 10mins and i lost. so those games are the suspicious ones are they suspcious? ofcourse they are if you just look at them without asking or knowing they fucking suspicious. but take in mind its 4hour before ladder lock ends and i didnt do it malisioucly at fucking all.
also this same day i went like 6-2 vs lambo counting those game so if anything i took more points from him than he won from those 2games.
this is one of their reasons.
And yet he only "gave" 2 wins to his teammate.
One being a "leave" and the other being an actual game being played.
Moreover, he ended up taking more points from Lambo than giving in subsequent games.
This claim that he was trying to help Lambo is just so full of shit. Outside of that hypothetical, there's literally no vested interest in him to fuck with the competition.
On April 10 2016 06:38 Jealous wrote:
If I am pulling out of my driveway and I didn't look back because I didn't care enough to make sure I was behaving within the confines of the rules of the road, and I run over a person, should I just walk free? No, because even though I had no MOTIVE, I still committed the crime.
This is why I think you're a giant retard. You're automatically assuming and posting repeatedly, making the conclusion that Major is a cheater. You're saying that he shouldn't be allowed to defend himself and decrying his responses as mere excuses when there's literally no evidence that would suggest he OR his teammate gained anything from his ladder activity on another server. You're also ignoring a literal 6 years of tournament participation where has conducted himself appropriately. You're spinning a tale that has no basis in reality, just whatever dumbass fictional character flaws you're claiming exists. Your analogy is so full of shit.
On April 10 2016 06:38 Jealous wrote:
He IS under contract. Earlier in the thread, or perhaps it was the other one, people brought up points from the Battle.net TOS (or maybe it was the WCS Qualifier TOS, but the distinction is not important). Major violated those points. He violated them after affirming that he would follow them. You know how when you install a program you have to agree to the "End User License Agreement" or whatever? Don't you have to do that when you sign up for Battle.net? He WAS given instructions on how to behave on the server, he just didn't follow them.
Other professional gamers playing without the intent of qualifying has no pertinence to his situation or actions, for two reasons. Firstly, because if other people jump off a cliff, that doesn't necessarily mean you should follow suit. Secondly, because Naniwa playing (hypothetically) to the best of his ability against others is actually to the benefit of the competition. It provides more games at a high level to more players. More games means more accurate rankings. Just because he can't qualify doesn't change that they still took the top players from the qualification round and just didn't include him. They still took the best players from the region with honest games under their belt. What Major does by giving free points has absolutely no relation to this.
I don't know how you can have this iron set assumption that Major was out to cheat and simultaneously make excuses for other players and claim they were probably helping the competition by also interfering with the competition.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2016 06:53 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:49 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? I don't see the point of you personally coaching Major though. I don't see it as irresponsible, i see major as the victim of shitty qualifier design. you should be allowed to leave a ladder game without getting kicked out of tournaments, lol. the fault here is blizzard's if you don't believe major then don't, but don't act as if you know the truth When have I ever stated that I KNOW the truth? All I know is what makes sense. What he did does not make sense unless he was extremely ignorant/short-sighted, or cheating. I'm not coaching him, I'm trying to determine the full truth. Saying that "maybe he will do things differently from now" was just a ray of hope -_-;
there's nothing extremely ignorant or short-sighted about leaving a ladder game :/
what is he supposed to do? his job is starcraft, so he plays starcraft to practice. where else is he going to practice if not the ladder? is he just supposed to fuck a day of practice because blizzard wants to? i'm going to tell my boss i'm not going to work on monday because- well shit i can't even think of a comparable example in the real world, lol.
this is just dumb shit from blizzard (as usual), don't blame major lol
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On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted?
Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were.
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Well I agree this does put a good precedent for the future.
Actually I agree with a lot of what Jealous has written in this thread. Why would you queue for a game and then leave the second you see who you are playing? If you forgot to do something then you ask for a pause and if you are severely unprepared to play a game to the point that a pause would be too long then why queue in the first place? Sure this can happen but how likely is it really, it is farfetched.
Also if I understood the situation right Major played Lambo 4 times earlier that day and won, and then when the cut-off time was getting close and Major himself was safe he took two loses that makes absolutely no sense? If you guys don't think this is fishy, I mean come on. It makes perfect sense, play 100% when you aren't sure you can qualify yourself and then when you are safe you help a friend or whatever. I'm absolutely not saying this is what happened, I'm just saying it is plausible and I do understand Blizzards decision even though their way of going about it was horrendous.
We don't know what happened here but personally I think that its not acceptable for professionals to leave a game the second they see who they are playing when a tournament is on the line based on ladder points.
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On April 10 2016 07:00 BeStFAN wrote:
This all hinges on the assumption that A: Major gave up wins to Lambo to help him qualify to WCS Europe and subsequently B: he wanted to disrupt the competition by doing so meaning he's a nasty cheater according to you.
There is no such assumption. The facts are that he gave up wins to Lambo, and that this was happening during WCS Europe. You said there is no motive, and I presented a possible one.
On April 10 2016 07:00 BeStFAN wrote:
And yet he only "gave" 2 wins to his teammate.
One being a "leave" and the other being an actual game being played.
Moreover, he ended up taking more points from Lambo than giving in subsequent games.
This claim that he was trying to help Lambo is just so full of shit. Outside of that hypothetical, there's literally no vested interest in him to fuck with the competition.
Quantity of games that he gave up doesn't matter. Quantity of games he won doesn't matter, because it hasn't been explicitly stated that he won those games afterwards. He could have won games earlier in the day, then when Lambo was like "shit I want to qualify and I'm not as high as I want to be," he asked Major to give him some wins. Anything is possible. Major could be telling the truth. You could be right. However, the only facts are that he gave him points for free, and that is against the rules. There is nothing to argue here. Motive and all else is irrelevant to the facts.
On April 10 2016 07:00 BeStFAN wrote:
This is why I think you're a giant retard. You're automatically assuming and posting repeatedly, making the conclusion that Major is a cheater. You're saying that he shouldn't be allowed to defend himself and decrying his responses as mere excuses when there's literally no evidence that would suggest he OR his teammate gained anything from his ladder activity on another server. You're also ignoring a literal 6 years of tournament participation where has conducted himself appropriately. You're spinning a tale that has no basis in reality, just whatever dumbass fictional character flaws you're claiming exists. Your analogy is so full of shit.
I'm sorry, but you clearly didn't understand the analogy. The analogy obviously painted me, the driver pulling out of the driveway, as a person with no malicious intent (analogy: not trying to cheat) but who committed a crime (analogy: giving free points). I never said he shouldn't be allowed to defend himself. I didn't disqualify his responses as excuses, I probed them further for details and explanations because his actions DIDN'T MAKE SENSE. The evidence that his teammate has something to gain from his ladder activity is FREE POINTS.
Major might not have outright cheated in the past, IIRC. But, to say that his conduct was stellar is a stretch at best, since the BW days. My "tale" is ONLY based on the facts, and the suspicions that I have about his actions not making logical sense.
On April 10 2016 07:00 BeStFAN wrote:
I don't know how you can have this iron set assumption that Major was out to cheat and simultaneously make excuses for other players and claim they were probably helping the competition by also interfering with the competition.
You really don't understand how Naniwa playing to the best of his ability is different from Major giving free wins? Really? I can't -_-;
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On April 10 2016 07:00 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:53 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:49 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? I don't see the point of you personally coaching Major though. I don't see it as irresponsible, i see major as the victim of shitty qualifier design. you should be allowed to leave a ladder game without getting kicked out of tournaments, lol. the fault here is blizzard's if you don't believe major then don't, but don't act as if you know the truth When have I ever stated that I KNOW the truth? All I know is what makes sense. What he did does not make sense unless he was extremely ignorant/short-sighted, or cheating. I'm not coaching him, I'm trying to determine the full truth. Saying that "maybe he will do things differently from now" was just a ray of hope -_-; there's nothing extremely ignorant or short-sighted about leaving a ladder game :/ what is he supposed to do? his job is starcraft, so he plays starcraft to practice. where else is he going to practice if not the ladder? is he just supposed to fuck a day of practice because blizzard wants to? i'm going to tell my boss i'm not going to work on monday because- well shit i can't even think of a comparable example in the real world, lol. this is just dumb shit from blizzard (as usual), don't blame major lol
I was referring more to the fact that he knew he was too sick to play consistently but continued to do so after the first instance, and in the process fed people free points during the last 24 hours of a ladder qualifier. That strikes me as very short-sighted.
He could have practiced with his teammate(s) in custom games, or on a server that was not going through a qualifier at the time (they weren't all at the same time, were they?), or on an account where match making wouldn't put him up against players who are within striking distance of the qualifier, or he could have stayed in bed and tried to get healthy, or he could have watched VODs/reps. Plenty of things he could have done that would be in line with his needs as a progamer that did not involve giving free points during a qualifier.
Here's a comparable example - "Boss, as soon as I start [[job]], I have to run to the bathroom and take my medicine. This has been going on all day. I can't make it to [[work]] today."
That was actually surprisingly simple.
Once again I will reiterate that while Blizzard's actions aren't perfect, Major has to shoulder blame for his actions and indiscretions as well.
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On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were.
As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided.
User was warned for this post
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On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
There is no such assumption. The facts are that he gave up wins to Lambo, and that this was happening during WCS Europe. You said there is no motive, and I presented a possible one.
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
Quantity of games that he gave up doesn't matter. Quantity of games he won doesn't matter, because it hasn't been explicitly stated that he won those games afterwards. He could have won games earlier in the day, then when Lambo was like "shit I want to qualify and I'm not as high as I want to be," he asked Major to give him some wins. Anything is possible. Major could be telling the truth. You could be right. However, the only facts are that he gave him points for free, and that is against the rules. There is nothing to argue here. Motive and all else is irrelevant to the facts.
You present a possible one that's completely debunked by the fact that Major took more ladder points from Lambo than gave. You hinge your possible motive on ONE game left and another ACTUAL GAME (PROXY, BANSHEE) played.
You ignore the fact that he ended up taking 6 games from Lambo.
You're spinning a tale of possibilities and leading people into the conclusion that Major is had a hand in cheating when the evidence points to no.
"Motive and all else is irrelevant to the facts."
"Quantity of games that he gave up doesn't matter. Quantity of games he won doesn't matter, because it hasn't been explicitly stated that he won those games afterwards." Yeah because WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED doesn't fit into your made-up worthless narrative.
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
I didn't disqualify his responses as excuses, I probed them further for details and explanations because his actions DIDN'T MAKE SENSE.
I never said he shouldn't be allowed to defend himself.
On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat.
Do you realize actively hurting someone's reputation with your horrible responses??
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
The evidence that his teammate has something to gain from his ladder activity is FREE POINTS.
And that evidence is FALSE based on what's already been said, but again and again you claim that the actual details don't matter. Again: He ended up TAKING more ladder points than GIVING at the end of the day; and one of the losses WAS in fact a game played.
And then you vaguely proclaim that the evidence implicated major when the evidence clearly doesn't.
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
Major might not have outright cheated in the past, IIRC. But, to say that his conduct was stellar is a stretch at best, since the BW days.
Cut the bullshit. What kind of worthless response is this. You agree he hasn't outright cheated but now imply some sort of bad behavior?
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
You really don't understand how Naniwa playing to the best of his ability is different from Major giving free wins?
You claim Major is interrupting the competition regardless of circumstances by him simply leaving and participating in the EU ladder when there's a competition going on, and yet you depict another player doing the same (participating in another region) as something completely unrelated.
On April 10 2016 07:20 Jealous wrote:
My "tale" is ONLY based on the facts, and the suspicions that I have about his actions not making logical sense.
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On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided.
Well, the last time, I did a triple post, I was banned for 2 days. I just hope, TL applies the same rules to all its users.
And in your case, you either break the rules of TeamLiquid pages intentionally, or you are too stupid to read and understand them. Right? Or you are just not interested in studying the rules, as was my case. In any case, you deserve the punishment, right? Is this the same case as you are trying to make against Major?
I understand your points, but do not necessarily agree with all of them. I see only one problem, that this has happened with his teammate. But there are so many reasons for not taking it so heavily (6:2. 4 hours before the close ...)
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Come to think of it, I've been leaving a lot of games in unranked or ranked over the years if I didnt feel like playing the map/matchup. Hope Blizzard doesnt ban me for match-fixing LOL
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On April 10 2016 07:38 BeStFAN wrote:
You present a possible one that's completely debunked by the fact that Major took more ladder points from Lambo than gave. You hinge your possible motive on ONE game left and another ACTUAL GAME (PROXY, BANSHEE) played.
You ignore the fact that he ended up taking 6 games from Lambo.
You're spinning a tale of possibilities and leading people into the conclusion that Major is had a hand in cheating when the evidence points to no.
"Motive and all else is irrelevant to the facts."
"Quantity of games that he gave up doesn't matter. Quantity of games he won doesn't matter, because it hasn't been explicitly stated that he won those games afterwards." Yeah because WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED doesn't fit into your made-up worthless narrative.
It's not debunked whatsoever. As Shuffleblade mentioned above, it is quite possible that the wins came earlier in the day, the losses came when his teammate was desperate close to the end of the qualifier. Again, the evidence points to YES. Why was he on Europe server, playing against his teammate, giving him a free win? Motive IS irrelevant to the facts. Quantity of games DO NOT matter. All that matters is that he gave free points. With the evidence we have so far (only his testimony and a summary of his discussion with Blizzard), this is what we have to work with.
Do you realize actively hurting someone's reputation with your horrible responses??
So by discussing rationally the situation which is already undergoing investigation and has already resulted in a ban, I am the one who is at fault? Ok. Maybe he shouldn't have been giving up wins to his teammate when he knew he was sick to play. I think that would have done more for his reputation. I've never once before spoken ill of him and would have no reason to do so now. Unfortunately, that is not the situation now. If my deductions affect his reputation, then it is on their merit. If they have merit, then there is truth to them. If there is truth to them, then it is deserved.
And that evidence is FALSE based on what's already been said, but again and again you claim that the actual details don't matter. Again: He ended up TAKING more ladder points than GIVING at the end of the day; and one of the losses WAS in fact a game played.
And then you vaguely proclaim that the evidence implicated major when the evidence clearly doesn't.
Except it is true.
Teammate:
-10 points Lost
-10 points Lost
-10 points Lost
-10 poinst Lost
~~LATER~~
+10 points GIVEN FOR FREE
+10 points Won, could have been a legit game or given for free, inconclusive given current data
Regardless of how many points exchanged hands, it's the crime of GIVING FREE POINTS.
Cut the bullshit. What kind of worthless response is this. You agree he hasn't outright cheated but now imply some sort of bad behavior?
Cheating isn't the only way a player can behave "inappropriately," so I'm simply answering your statement to the contrary.
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Major's explanation sounds kinda fishy and childish... If you don't feel like playing, get rest and don't play, but don't come up with weird excuses.
That being said, this whole ladder qualifying thing doesn't seem to work out well if these cases of early-leaving can't be sorted out somehow. I mean, if someone has urgent business to do for whatever reasons and can't expect the opponent to wait for several minutes, one just leaves the game, simple as that, it's on Blizzard's end to determine potential abuse, but just coming up with a ban regarding a certain player without presenting investigative data to back-up that decision is certainly frustrating and unsatisfying - for both players and audience.
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On April 10 2016 07:47 Diabolique wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2016 07:32 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 07:08 DuckloadBlackra wrote:On April 10 2016 06:43 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:31 Incognoto wrote:On April 10 2016 06:22 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 06:14 Major wrote:On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:On April 10 2016 05:50 BeStFAN wrote:On April 10 2016 05:26 Jealous wrote:
The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. What rules did he break? What kind of benefits did he gain by leaving games on a ladder region that doesn't affect his tournament region or give him any money. If this was tournament play then obviously leaving games early would be in bad taste but it's just ladder games. Practice. Is he not allowed to click the button and play SC2 in EU? Should Chris Lee aka Illusion be punished for taking ladder points from Pokebunny when he's a retired player? https://twitter.com/ROOTIllusion/u/718268519796908032This is just bullshit and you're full of crap saying majors either retarded or a cheater. So your contention is that he can give free points to people in that ladder region, for whom the points DO matter, because it's not HIS region. That makes a lot of sense. You've presented absolutely no counter-argument and are arguing with feelings not logic. On April 10 2016 05:54 Blargh wrote:The people defending Major are doing the equivalent of accepting the "my dog ate my homework" excuse. Can't be proven, can't be disproven. You are also accepting that Major knew he was too sick to play on short notice, and kept queuing anyway, in ladder games that had the potential to affect qualifiers. He ignored his condition and ended up giving two easy wins to his opponent, who just so happens to be his teammate, and doesn't think there is any sort of problem with this. Riiiiiight. If this is all true, then Major must be intellectually handicapped. If it's not true, then he is a rule-breaking liar and a cheat. Really??? It's the ladder. People are known for not caring about the ladder. Especially when it's just a smurf account on EU ladder. Like, the only reason he's playing it is for practice. He could care less whether he wins his next game. The way Blizzard handled this is really dumb. Even if Major did intentionally leave the games because he didn't care, and his team mate would benefit (honestly, I doubt Major cares about his team mate that much), they need more proof than him just leaving the game. That's just dumb. If they have more proof, then whatever, that solves that. But from the information that we have, it looks like they made a shitty decision. There is some definite flaws with the current qualification system in place, I don't think even Blizzard wants to deny that. They wanted the ladder to be a nice competitive environment, and it's a sort of cool way to do qualifiers for tournaments. But the ladder is open to ANYONE. People can throw games right and left if they wanted to. Like, Naniwa for instance, who opted (?) not to participate in the thing, could have left 20 games at the start. There's nothing really stopping him from doing so. Likewise, Major can as well, because he's just playing on EU ladder for fun. That's actually what the ladder is for. Light practice. It is not some sanctioned competitive PvP qualifier. Also your analogy is dumb. The thing is, you don't ban people from tournaments if it can't be proven. That would be really stupid. You should have legitimate proof what his intentions were, and if all you have are a couple of replays of the guy leaving early against a bunch of people, and even a couple team mates, I would say the only APPROPRIATE thing for Blizzard to do would be to 1) give Major et al. a warning. Maybe say that leaving the game early, and playing without the intention to win every game is not allowed, and future incidents will result in a DQ... 2) revise their rules making it CLEAR that leaving games during these qualifiers will result in penalties/negative consequences. If they want, they can even make it a rule that one cannot play on a different ladder during qualifier times, or they will be disqualified from participating in their own region I guess. Your point is that because professional players never cared about ladder, that they should continue not doing so when ladder has added meaning, namely qualification and money. This is the equivalent of not caring if your shoes are tied when you are sitting on your couch vs. when you're running in a marathon and could trip, fall, and injure other players near you, letting other players get ahead. That makes a lot of sense. If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it. I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision. I'm pointing out the fact that Major had to make a lot of bad decisions or be incredibly shortsighted given the nature of the event. As a progamer, I'm sure you have to give some thought to the nature of the competition and how best to approach it and what not to do. Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. It's HIS responsibility to be aware of his impact on the tournament, as a professional gamer. Note the first word in that title: professional. It's not just regular ladder games that he shouldn't care about and he should have known this. There's really no excuse that would overrule that. It's either one of 3 things, I will add one to my previous list: 1. Major didn't care enough to think about what impact his games would have on a tournament, which is dumb and unprofessional. 2. Major did care but didn't see anything wrong with what he was doing, which given the fact that it was a chronic issue over that period of time (his illness and inability to play), is even more dumb. 3. Major did it on purpose and gave free points to a teammate. In the end, I don't find any of the three to be acceptable mindsets for a "progamer." i didnt do in on purpose. and i would like to point out why blizzard didnt ban bunny or shadownb? when he left a game 10MINS before lockdown. blantly giving bunny free pts. mine was 4hours before lockdown? But after you gave up a game for free once or couldn't play well because you were sick once, you kept playing right? So it's clear that you were aware of your condition and your actions. Are you saying you weren't clear on how the ladder system works? That's not only your fault, but also incredibly myopic and unprofessional. Please, don't bring up other people as a defense for your own situation. Yes, you might look at what happened/did not happen to other people and feel that it is unfair. You might even be right, that it is unfair. However, if what you're saying is true, then you and every other person who gave free points should have been banned/warned, not that you and every other person who gave free points SHOULDN'T have been banned/warned. Again, I'm not looking at Blizzard's actions here, but at YOU and YOUR actions. Deflecting to Bunny and Blizzard and 4 hours vs. 10 minutes does not solve anything. You're being ridiculous. I don't see the point of attacking major like this who got fucked over what is a technicality until proven otherwise. There are flaws with the ladder qualifier thing and it's showing up right now. The way Blizzard is handling this is similarly quite bad. Please be at least aware of that. The point of "attacking" Major is that I sincerely feel that he is lying about not being aware of the consequences of his actions, but as it is a "dog ate my homework" scenario there is no definitive proof. So, I approached the matter by presenting him with all the information that he should have been aware of and questioning him on whether he really is that irresponsible/short-sighted. Maybe it will change the way he approaches situations like these in the future. This is all assuming he didn't do it intentionally. + Show Spoiler +On April 10 2016 06:10 Jealous wrote:
If you will note, I never said the system is perfect, or that it doesn't have flaws. I never defended Blizzard's ladder system at all. Nor did I defend Blizzard's immediate decision to ban with no notice. I think a warning would be an acceptable approach to the situation, and a public notification of the situation. However, I will defend the fact that this sets a precedent that is important. Blizzard is making it clear that doing such stuff isn't acceptable when it is running a ladder event, which is completely in their right, regardless of how players may feel about it.
I don't even really want to talk about the ladder qualifier details, or Blizzard's decision...
Giving free points in a ladder qualifier is supremely stupid if it's not done as outright cheating. Of course I'm aware of that. Did you read what you quoted? Unlike the "dog ate my homework scenario" which is obviously extremely unlikely, there can be many real reasons for leaving a ladder game which happen all the time. When deciding whether he should be banned or not it doesn't matter whether he was "unprofessional" from your vantage point. Blizzard should have a rule stating that players cannot leave games during a specified period of time when this ladder race is taking place if they're going to decide to jump the gun and straight up ban him when they cannot prove what his intentions were. As mentioned above, those reasons are not exactly relevant to the matter at hand, because he already knew he was sick and that he had issues that could prevent him from playing consistently. However, he chose to do so anyway. It was a chronic situation, not a spontaneous friend at the door or phone call. There was something posted earlier which did say "players have to play to the best of their ability," or what not. I do agree that their decision may have been overly hasty, based on the evidence we have been provided. Well, the last time, I did a triple post, I was banned for 2 days. I just hope, TL applies the same rules to all its users. And in your case, you either break the rules of TeamLiquid pages intentionally, or you are too stupid to read and understand them. Right? Or you are just not interested in studying the rules, as was my case. In any case, you deserve the punishment, right? Is this the same case as you are trying to make against Major? I understand your points, but do not necessarily agree with all of them. I see only one problem, that this has happened with his teammate. But there are so many reasons for not taking it so heavily (6:2. 4 hours before the close ...)
With situations like that, you have to consider context. I am responding to three different people, one of which is a very lengthy post that took me some time to write, which I was writing while the others were posted. I find it easier to have discussions with multiple people if I don't have 1 megapost with 6+ quotes in it. Your situation might have been different.
That's right. If the moderators feel that my actions warrant a ban, I'll take it. However, I don't believe that the situation is a good parallel. Major went out of his way to play on a different server and he ended up giving free points, which violate a tournament's qualifier. That's a pretty big deal. My using separate posts to answer multiple multi-paragraph discussions seems to me like a logical approach to the situation, and is not that big of a deal.
I respect your opinion. I'm glad to see civil discourse is still an option.
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