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If you are going to argue about racism in this thread, just don't. It is a pointless argument that merits no valuable discussion whatsoever. If people truly feel so strongly about it, then take it to PMs. Do not muck up this thread with racism arguments. |
On March 09 2016 08:49 ilililililililiii wrote:
I love the korean scene more than the foreign scene. I study and watch almost all of Proleague SSL and GSL. (lol @last time i studied from a foreigner) But I also want there to be more money in starcraft. This requires growth. Obviously some of you dont care about the money in the space, but many do.
Maybe one day people can be confident with a goal career in starcraft, instead of it being a big risk.
That's not gonna happen in SC2's lifetime that's for sure.
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On March 09 2016 06:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 06:20 Pseudorandom wrote:On March 09 2016 06:12 ilililililililiii wrote:
if you read what we said you'd know hes the one saying its racist shield. I'm saying he loses respect stooping so low as to say people are racist. What do you call it when a group of people are being hindered or hurt due to their race? I call it racism. Omg this again. Koreans aren't region locked because they are koreans. It has nothing to do with their race. At least that's not what the region locking is about at all. (the implementation might be bad though, i can see that) Koreans are banned from these tournaments because they have an 'unfair' advantage due to their infrastructure. Stop calling blizzard racist, it makes you look dumb. Exactly the same would have happened if France would have the majority of best players in the world, or Brazil, or Spain. It's not racism.
And it would have been just as racist if it was France, or Brazil, or Spain.
I stand by my statement. Anyone supporting the Region Lock has at the very least racist tendencies.
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On March 09 2016 11:34 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 06:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2016 06:20 Pseudorandom wrote:On March 09 2016 06:12 ilililililililiii wrote:
if you read what we said you'd know hes the one saying its racist shield. I'm saying he loses respect stooping so low as to say people are racist. What do you call it when a group of people are being hindered or hurt due to their race? I call it racism. Omg this again. Koreans aren't region locked because they are koreans. It has nothing to do with their race. At least that's not what the region locking is about at all. (the implementation might be bad though, i can see that) Koreans are banned from these tournaments because they have an 'unfair' advantage due to their infrastructure. Stop calling blizzard racist, it makes you look dumb. Exactly the same would have happened if France would have the majority of best players in the world, or Brazil, or Spain. It's not racism. And it would have been just as racist if it was France, or Brazil, or Spain. I stand by my statement. Anyone supporting the Region Lock has at the very least racist tendencies.
incorrect and incredibly offensive
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Canada8991 Posts
On March 09 2016 10:52 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 08:49 ilililililililiii wrote:
I love the korean scene more than the foreign scene. I study and watch almost all of Proleague SSL and GSL. (lol @last time i studied from a foreigner) But I also want there to be more money in starcraft. This requires growth. Obviously some of you dont care about the money in the space, but many do.
Maybe one day people can be confident with a goal career in starcraft, instead of it being a big risk. That's not gonna happen in SC2's lifetime that's for sure.
Well it won't happen in SC2 but to be fair trying to be a professional athlete as never been anything else then a risk. Most people will lose more then they will gain from these kind of dream, at least from a money perspective, after that it depend of your values in life. If you feel ok spending 20 hours a week training only to be stuck mid gm or to in some local semi-pro football league then no problem.
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On March 09 2016 11:34 showstealer1829 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 06:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2016 06:20 Pseudorandom wrote:On March 09 2016 06:12 ilililililililiii wrote:
if you read what we said you'd know hes the one saying its racist shield. I'm saying he loses respect stooping so low as to say people are racist. What do you call it when a group of people are being hindered or hurt due to their race? I call it racism. Omg this again. Koreans aren't region locked because they are koreans. It has nothing to do with their race. At least that's not what the region locking is about at all. (the implementation might be bad though, i can see that) Koreans are banned from these tournaments because they have an 'unfair' advantage due to their infrastructure. Stop calling blizzard racist, it makes you look dumb. Exactly the same would have happened if France would have the majority of best players in the world, or Brazil, or Spain. It's not racism. And it would have been just as racist if it was France, or Brazil, or Spain. I stand by my statement. Anyone supporting the Region Lock has at the very least racist tendencies.
ok let me see if I can't tell you why your incredibly stupid. 1. you can't call something racist when its where some one lives and not what race that person is that is preventing them from participating. 2. the same system that is supposedly discriminating against Koreans is also giving them one extra tournament and more money to compete in compared to the rest of the world. 3. Koreans are still participating in the tournament that's apparently discriminating against them.
how the hell do you even have an argument?
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On March 09 2016 12:02 magicallypuzzled wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 11:34 showstealer1829 wrote:On March 09 2016 06:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2016 06:20 Pseudorandom wrote:On March 09 2016 06:12 ilililililililiii wrote:
if you read what we said you'd know hes the one saying its racist shield. I'm saying he loses respect stooping so low as to say people are racist. What do you call it when a group of people are being hindered or hurt due to their race? I call it racism. Omg this again. Koreans aren't region locked because they are koreans. It has nothing to do with their race. At least that's not what the region locking is about at all. (the implementation might be bad though, i can see that) Koreans are banned from these tournaments because they have an 'unfair' advantage due to their infrastructure. Stop calling blizzard racist, it makes you look dumb. Exactly the same would have happened if France would have the majority of best players in the world, or Brazil, or Spain. It's not racism. And it would have been just as racist if it was France, or Brazil, or Spain. I stand by my statement. Anyone supporting the Region Lock has at the very least racist tendencies. ok let me see if I can't tell you why your incredibly stupid. 1. you can't call something racist when its where some one lives and not what race that person is that is preventing them from participating. 2. the same system that is supposedly discriminating against Koreans is also giving them one extra tournament and more money to compete in compared to the rest of the world. 3. Koreans are still participating in the tournament that's apparently discriminating against them. how the hell do you even have an argument?
1. The WCS rules ban everyone from Korea who doesn't have a visa. Who lives there? Koreans
2. They've taken away every weekend tournament (DH, IEM, Redbull, etc) and given them nothing in return. Which means if you don't qualify for the ONE extra tournament you don't get any money. play, points for 6 months.
3. NA Koreans are. Not Koreans in general. Only 3 can right now due to the rules they made.
You can paint your picture any way you like. Koreans are getting fucked over hardcore and if you support it you are just as complicit.
If I started shouting to ban MarineLord based on his Nationwars results I'd be shouted down and rightly so. But it's just as stupid and racist as what this is.
Anyway. I'm not going to argue any further. You won't change my views on this. I think if you support the current system you are at least suspect of racist tendencies. You can shout me down as biased or stupid if you so wish, but I won't back down from that view
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On March 09 2016 08:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2016 08:23 Ensiferum8 wrote:On March 09 2016 07:38 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2016 07:01 Ensiferum8 wrote:On March 09 2016 06:30 The_Red_Viper wrote:On March 09 2016 06:20 Pseudorandom wrote:On March 09 2016 06:12 ilililililililiii wrote:
if you read what we said you'd know hes the one saying its racist shield. I'm saying he loses respect stooping so low as to say people are racist. What do you call it when a group of people are being hindered or hurt due to their race? I call it racism. Omg this again. Koreans aren't region locked because they are koreans. It has nothing to do with their race. At least that's not what the region locking is about at all. (the implementation might be bad though, i can see that) Koreans are banned from these tournaments because they have an 'unfair' advantage due to their infrastructure. Stop calling blizzard racist, it makes you look dumb. Exactly the same would have happened if France would have the majority of best players in the world, or Brazil, or Spain. It's not racism. people supporting this racist rule by blizzard are the one who are looking dumb. The vast majority of foreigners dont have the determination and the will to put as much effort as the korean do. (see lilbow last blizzcon) This rule is simply racist, banning korean BECAUSE they are better. Like, wtf? the goal of a competitive game is not to be the best anymore? its, whos not korean? People who defend this are either racist, or they are soo desesperate for sc2 that they would try anything in the world, including accepting racist rules to make sc2 a top game again. But i prefer sc2 dying in dignity over banning all the people (koreans) that made this game alive and fun for so long just to see the game last a bit longer thanks to scrubreigner You have no idea what you are talking about. It's really as simple as that. Thanks for your intelligent input though  lol, sick comeback, young boy. I guess we have a futur lawyer here You simply have no idea what racism is. Maybe you are one of the sjw though, for them pretty much anything is racist/sexist7whatever, could be the case?! Blizzard's idea to region lock simply is not racist. Stop calling it that. You can disagree with the general idea to help the foreign scene that way, sure. You can disagree with the implementation of the region lock, fine. But calling Blizzard and "people who defend it" racist is mind-bogglingly dumb and i cannot even believe people would say stuff like that and actually mean it. I doubt this will lead to an interesting discussion though, so the chances are high that i won't respond to your likely answer. you are wrong on soo many level its almost funny.
First im completly against people seeing sexism or racism everywhere. Also, its funny that you keep saying its not racist, but you bring no arguments (or at least, relevant and non stupid ones).
You simply cant ban 1 country, only one, from almost all tournaments because they are born in korea, while letting every other countries being able to compete. How hard is it for you to understand?
Region lock? fine, but region lock should make only a country, or a continent being able to compete in a certain tournament. not 1 country NOT BEING ABLE TO PLAY.
It makes no sense to ban koreans for a european tournament, but not japanese, not china, not australia.
Whats the big difference between them?
Yet, blizzard only bans korea, not japan. Why should a japanese player do not require a visa, while koreans need?
I understand why blizzard does that, even if im completly against it. But saying its not racist is just pure stupidity.
P.S Dont bother replying anyway, except insulting me, you bring 0 argument and just look dumber and dumber with every post you make.
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37117 Posts
Please adhere to the mod note everyone. Starting from here on out, mod actions will be given out.
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8751 Posts
On March 08 2016 22:07 Incognoto wrote:
Yeah this topic was just PR from blizzard, nothing of substance. ):
You wanted more PR from Blizzard earlier in this thread:
On March 08 2016 02:29 Incognoto wrote:
Nonetheless, the fact that she's posting here at all is a good sign. I just hope that actual listening and communication takes place.
I am particularly interested in hearing the rationale behind creating big, false tournaments (everyone except for Korean is welcome) instead of leaving the big tournaments actually open and hosting smaller, region-locked tournaments. Right now, IEM is a fake joke. It's disgusting to watch an event which specifically makes sure that the best aren't allowed to participate just because they're the best.
Why click on a thread about an interview between TL and Kim Phan if you aren't interested in PR?
And to complain that nothing of substance transpired... well of course, the interview is an interview just for communication. It's not a meeting or something. I don't know how you could hope for more than just words and explanations from an interview. There isn't supposed to be anything of substance that occurs at an interview. Just talking.
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"If you are going to argue about racism in this thread, just don't. It is a pointless argument that merits no valuable discussion whatsoever. If people truly feel so strongly about it, then take it to PMs. Do not muck up this thread with racism arguments."
Racism, seriously, wtf?
Whoever put it up here, just don't understand what it has to do with the subject...
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People should use the term "discrimination" in this case. Blizzard may be the architect of a system which seems to be designed gives an unfair advantage to certain people based on nationality. I'd argue there's no ill will, but WCS's system clearly puts nationality ahead of competition. This deserves to be discussed. Let me put it this way, if the spirit of a competition is to find out who the best player is, and you intentionally funnel less competent players at the highest level of competition, are you running a tournament or a circus? Circuses are fun, people like that.
But using radical terms to paint Blizzard as racists (lol!) is just doesn't raise the correct issues. The term's been dragged through the mud too much over the years anyway, you can make it say anything.
On March 10 2016 00:23 NonY wrote:
Why click on a thread about an interview between TL and Kim Phan if you aren't interested in PR?
And to complain that nothing of substance transpired... well of course, the interview is an interview just for communication. It's not a meeting or something. I don't know how you could hope for more than just words and explanations from an interview. There isn't supposed to be anything of substance that occurs at an interview. Just talking.
He wanted more communication, he got PR. Many people understand the term "PR" with an implied negative connotation, even though it's not always the case.
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8751 Posts
On March 10 2016 01:17 Djzapz wrote:People should use the term "discrimination" in this case. Blizzard may be the architect of a system which seems to be designed gives an unfair advantage to certain people based on nationality. I'd argue there's no ill will, but WCS's system clearly puts nationality ahead of competition. This deserves to be discussed. Let me put it this way, if the spirit of a competition is to find out who the best player is, and you intentionally funnel less competent players at the highest level of competition, are you running a tournament or a circus? Circuses are fun, people like that. But using radical terms to paint Blizzard as racists (lol!) is just doesn't raise the correct issues. The term's been dragged through the mud too much over the years anyway, you can make it say anything. Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 00:23 NonY wrote:
Why click on a thread about an interview between TL and Kim Phan if you aren't interested in PR?
And to complain that nothing of substance transpired... well of course, the interview is an interview just for communication. It's not a meeting or something. I don't know how you could hope for more than just words and explanations from an interview. There isn't supposed to be anything of substance that occurs at an interview. Just talking. He wanted more communication, he got PR. Many people understand the term "PR" with an implied negative connotation, even though it's not always the case.
If PR is bad because it has spin, then it doesn't make any sense to complain about it when the communication he then initiates contains a ton of negative spin:
"I am particularly interested in hearing the rationale behind creating big, false tournaments (everyone except for Korean is welcome) instead of leaving the big tournaments actually open and hosting smaller, region-locked tournaments. Right now, IEM is a fake joke. It's disgusting to watch an event which specifically makes sure that the best aren't allowed to participate just because they're the best."
If he values straight talk then he does a poor job of showing it. The way he communicates isn't how goal-oriented productive people who respect each other would communicate to each other either...
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On March 10 2016 01:57 NonY wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 01:17 Djzapz wrote:People should use the term "discrimination" in this case. Blizzard may be the architect of a system which seems to be designed gives an unfair advantage to certain people based on nationality. I'd argue there's no ill will, but WCS's system clearly puts nationality ahead of competition. This deserves to be discussed. Let me put it this way, if the spirit of a competition is to find out who the best player is, and you intentionally funnel less competent players at the highest level of competition, are you running a tournament or a circus? Circuses are fun, people like that. But using radical terms to paint Blizzard as racists (lol!) is just doesn't raise the correct issues. The term's been dragged through the mud too much over the years anyway, you can make it say anything. On March 10 2016 00:23 NonY wrote:
Why click on a thread about an interview between TL and Kim Phan if you aren't interested in PR?
And to complain that nothing of substance transpired... well of course, the interview is an interview just for communication. It's not a meeting or something. I don't know how you could hope for more than just words and explanations from an interview. There isn't supposed to be anything of substance that occurs at an interview. Just talking. He wanted more communication, he got PR. Many people understand the term "PR" with an implied negative connotation, even though it's not always the case. If PR is bad because it has spin, then it doesn't make any sense to complain about it when the communication he then initiates contains a ton of negative spin: "I am particularly interested in hearing the rationale behind creating big, false tournaments (everyone except for Korean is welcome) instead of leaving the big tournaments actually open and hosting smaller, region-locked tournaments. Right now, IEM is a fake joke. It's disgusting to watch an event which specifically makes sure that the best aren't allowed to participate just because they're the best." If he values straight talk then he does a poor job of showing it. The way he communicates isn't how goal-oriented productive people who respect each other would communicate to each other either...
Well, I dunno how is the world where you live but some people like it when journalism is actual journalism and not "let's avoid all important issues and act like we're Soviet-era Pravda". An interview should not be an interview for communication (ie raw PR), simply because a competent and willing interviewer should not be nice to the interviewee.
And obviously the part you quote is negative, he's complaining. Do you often happen to complain in a positive way?
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On March 10 2016 01:17 Djzapz wrote:
People should use the term "discrimination" in this case. Blizzard may be the architect of a system which seems to be designed gives an unfair advantage to certain people based on nationality. I'd argue there's no ill will, but WCS's system clearly puts nationality ahead of competition. This deserves to be discussed. Let me put it this way, if the spirit of a competition is to find out who the best player is, and you intentionally funnel less competent players at the highest level of competition, are you running a tournament or a circus? Circuses are fun, people like that.
its in the nature of anything less than BO7 series. its rampant in the Olympics and international hockey, basketball and baseball competitions. in international basketball and baseball they really should just hand the US the Gold and not invite them.. and have every other country in the world fight over Silver.
should the women's world hockey championship even exist? just have Canada and the US do a single BO7. no, Canada plays Sweden in 2006 because the US loses 1 game to Sweden after beating them like 15 times during the year? LOL
Does any one really believe the 1988 Soviet Union had a better basketball team than the US?
does any one think the 1980 US hockey team was better than the 1980 Soviet hockey team?
i can go on forever with these comparisons... usually the champ of these short-time-line international events is questionable and based on 1 game.
the NCAA Basketball. its all 1-game eliminations for the final 64 teams
does anyone think Arizona > Kentucky in '97?
and again, i can list 1000 upsets here.
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As far as I am aware, the point of the Olympics IS to put nationality ahead of competition. I would rather my SC2 tournaments didn't do that. Though for most sports in the olympics, the major tournaments/competitions of their respective sports, rightfully put competition, or entertainment first.
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On March 10 2016 02:37 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
As far as I am aware, the point of the Olympics IS to put nationality ahead of competition. I would rather my SC2 tournaments didn't do that.
it happens in more than just the Olympics. just off the top of my head.
world baseball classic, world cup of hockey, every international basketball event, every international curling event.
so umm ya the world baseball classic is anti-american because of how brutally hard it is to make it into competition if you're american but its amazingly easy if you are canadian. and ya, Canada beat the US at WBC 2006. Does any one in the right mind think Jeff Francis is a better pitcher than CC Sabathia?
the kind of "unfairness" being whined about in here happens all the time in dozens of international competitions every year.
if you are the best curling team in the world living in Canada the odds are you'll never see an international competition because some team 1% worse than you was your opponent in some local event and you never got out of local qualifiers.
there is a reasonable chance the best SC2 player inthe world will be some Korean guy who got knocked out in a local qualifier and won't come within 2,000 kilometres of Blizzcon.
so what?
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2 questions remain.
Will we still have haters when more people end up wanting to watch more foreigners, and less about top level play.
How long are we testing this if it doesn't work, and people only want to see top level play.
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On March 10 2016 02:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2016 01:17 Djzapz wrote:
People should use the term "discrimination" in this case. Blizzard may be the architect of a system which seems to be designed gives an unfair advantage to certain people based on nationality. I'd argue there's no ill will, but WCS's system clearly puts nationality ahead of competition. This deserves to be discussed. Let me put it this way, if the spirit of a competition is to find out who the best player is, and you intentionally funnel less competent players at the highest level of competition, are you running a tournament or a circus? Circuses are fun, people like that.
its in the nature of anything less than BO7 series. its rampant in the Olympics and international hockey, basketball and baseball competitions. in international basketball and baseball they really should just hand the US the Gold and not invite them.. and have every other country in the world fight over Silver. should the women's world hockey championship even exist? just have Canada and the US do a single BO7. no, Canada plays Sweden in 2006 because the US loses 1 game to Sweden after beating them like 15 times during the year? LOL Does any one really believe the 1988 Soviet Union had a better basketball team than the US? does any one think the 1980 US hockey team was better than the 1980 Soviet hockey team? i can go on forever with these comparisons... usually the champ of these short-time-line international events is questionable and based on 1 game. the NCAA Basketball. its all 1-game eliminations for the final 64 teams does anyone think Arizona > Kentucky in '97? and again, i can list 1000 upsets here.
Is that what you want or is that what happens? I ask as someone who couldn't care less about the Olympics. Also just because you don't necessarily get the best at the end of a tournament doesn't mean you should throw the notion out of the window. Upsets happen, the worse player can get lucky - you still should have a format that promotes skill above all else though. Otherwise, like I said, it becomes a circus. It seems to me like you're saying "we can't consistently perfectly determine who's the best so we shouldn't even try" which I don't think it's what you actually believe.
I mean if we extend your logic we could run everything in single elim bo1's and it's fine, we're just throwing shit at the wall and people are fine. Then the tournament becomes more about flags moving up brackets than about being good at the game.
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I like the new WCS system because it will eventually lead to the end of the practice of ranking Koreans by who attends the most foreign tournaments.
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Riot got it right. Blizzard got it wrong.
Riot's "soft-lock" on the number of Koreans in their regions is great. It helps scenes improve their play while giving Koreans a fair reward for their efforts. Blizzard's "hard-lock" on Koreans is wrong no matter how you want to rationalize it and the numbers will start showing that discrimination of one ethnicity won't fix a problem that is much deeper than the idea that: "the scene is struggling because Koreans are dominating too much".
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