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Call to Action: February 23 Balance Testing - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
261 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 12 13 14 Next All
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3344 Posts
February 24 2016 10:44 GMT
#21
Yeah I think Siegevacs can be compared to the strength of Disruptors in PvP. Both are highly exciting and skillful to use, but comes at the cost of more shallow strategy.

I really don't think Siege Tanks can find a sweet spot without allowing Medivacs to pick up Sieged Tanks for the much important evacuation the unit needs in LotV, however, I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
PPN
Profile Joined August 2011
France248 Posts
February 24 2016 10:48 GMT
#22
On February 24 2016 16:47 Ctesias wrote:
What worries me with these proposed changes is how Terran will fare. A small buff to tank damage hardly compensates for the major nerfs.


PvZ is one of the worst it has ever been lately and Blizzard nerfed Protoss twice. I don't think balance is their priority right now.
Big-t
Profile Joined January 2011
Austria1350 Posts
February 24 2016 10:51 GMT
#23
Yes! Bye bye tankivacs
But I don´t think the tank dmg buff is enough to make up for that.
monchi | IdrA | Flash
esdf
Profile Joined December 2012
Croatia736 Posts
February 24 2016 10:52 GMT
#24
why can't blizzard just leave the game develop on it's own without them patching every 30 days or so? that way players would actually need to learn to adapt & overcome, like it was in brood war. instead what tthey do now is whine until david kim says "k, time to fix what ain't broken part 999"

hope tankivacs stay even after this test.
why do you not believe it? the legend has alived!
Gowerly
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United Kingdom916 Posts
February 24 2016 10:54 GMT
#25
I think lifting a tank up is fine.
I figured that would stay but when the tank was dropped it would just be un-sieged.
I will reduce you to a series of numbers.
xongnox
Profile Joined November 2011
540 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:24:57
February 24 2016 11:04 GMT
#26
Why do not try an intermediate nerf of the tankivac ? So far :

-What we like in tankivacs :
good micro is rewarded, you can save your tanks in a lot of situations, making the tank less of an timing-attack unit, because they are not dead as fuck as soon as you go out on the map with them (that was the previous situation, except TvT ).
Tankivacs are also nice vs powerful Z and P timings/all-in, the mobility is kinda needed versus corrosive bile/warp-prism/nydus.

-What we don't like in tankivacs :
TvT. That seems like there is now an 'offensive advantage', very frustrating to play, plus, forced to keep all the medivacs with the tanks, and forced to scan constantly your opponent even if you are in a kinda nice defensive set-up, multi-task is dying in macro TvT. It's death-ball-micro vs death-ball micro.

The glory days of TvT, from WoL to HotS, was possible thanks to the local defensive advantage brought by Siege Tanks. With even sized armies, 80% of an sieged army could hold 100% of the opponent army : so, counter-attacks was a powerful play, punishing hard F2-deathball play. Repeat this process recursively, and we got the glorious late-WoL Korean TvT, with 4+ hot fighting areas on the map, increasing positional and strategical play !

-Proposed Solution:
Leave the full-cargo Siege Tank Pick-up, but drop it unsieged !

This way we keep the good parts and avoid the flows !

Poll: What do you think this proposed change ?

Good Idea (53)
 
63%

Bad Idea (31)
 
37%

84 total votes

Your vote: What do you think this proposed change ?

(Vote): Good Idea
(Vote): Bad Idea




edit > Gowerly > yeah cross-posted.
Salteador Neo
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Andorra5591 Posts
February 24 2016 11:10 GMT
#27
The sieged load and unsieged drop has been suggested a thousand times already (by many and myself too) but it's probably just too confusing and not elegant.
Revolutionist fan
Ctesias
Profile Joined December 2012
4595 Posts
February 24 2016 11:13 GMT
#28
On February 24 2016 16:56 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2016 16:47 Ctesias wrote:
What worries me with these proposed changes is how Terran will fare. A small buff to tank damage hardly compensates for the major nerfs.

It's not a "small" buff, though. And specifically the damage buff helps tanks be better vs units like Marauders that were a particular threat to them.

It is a small buff considering you won't be able to pick them up. The damage hardly matters beyond TvT if you can't save them from Ravager shots, for instance. I can see us returning to the tank not being used at all outside of TvT with these changes.
Flash | Mvp
Wrath
Profile Blog Joined July 2014
3174 Posts
February 24 2016 11:13 GMT
#29
On February 24 2016 16:21 Seeker wrote:
I'm going to be completely honest here and say that I think tankivacs should stay in the game. The concept was highly criticized at first but I think enough time has passed that players have learned to adapt to it and furthermore, utilize the strategy to its most optimal level. Just look at aLive vs TY during yesterday's afreeca vs KT match. That match was so invigorating and exciting. I think keeping tankivacs will make for much more action packed games in the long run.


Exciting to you as a viewer but not a great experience when you play it.
Cyro
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United Kingdom20284 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:26:17
February 24 2016 11:19 GMT
#30
A lot of people like the tankivac style micro, but the siege tank is absolutely the wrong unit to do it on. There's potential to add similar stuff with other units, even other mech units.

The entire design of the siege tank is based around strength at the cost of immobility - to take away strength in order to balance it while being super mobile is an insult to that design.

It is a small buff considering you won't be able to pick them up.


The biggest strengths of the siege tank in the past were in the WOL metas, pre-widow mine etc. Marine-tank vs zerg. It was heavily used in the era of TvP dominance (1-1-1 etc). It was a core unit in TvT FOREVER.
The tanks DPS has been increased by ~23-28% depending on what it's shooting at since then and it no longer requires an upgrade to siege, those are massive buffs and it's more than ready to break out into being an extremely powerful unit with these changes.

New counters exist and may be too accessible but if that's the case and even a super buffed tank doesn't work, then it's an obvious and easy thing to fix - it sounds like it will only be an issue vs Zerg if at all, and zerg is a little wonky against more than just terran at the moment.

Tanks will still be used vs terran and protoss, 100%.
"oh my god my overclock... I got a single WHEA error on the 23rd hour, 9 minutes" -Belial88
Vanadiel
Profile Joined April 2012
France961 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:25:47
February 24 2016 11:21 GMT
#31
On February 24 2016 16:21 Seeker wrote:
I'm going to be completely honest here and say that I think tankivacs should stay in the game. The concept was highly criticized at first but I think enough time has passed that players have learned to adapt to it and furthermore, utilize the strategy to its most optimal level. Just look at aLive vs TY during yesterday's afreeca vs KT match. That match was so invigorating and exciting. I think keeping tankivacs will make for much more action packed games in the long run.



I completely agree, although I don't believe there is a majority thinking like you and me.

I am also afraid that a stronger tank without the mobility of tankivacs and its ability to save the tank would encourage turtle play for mech player and terran not moving out on the map, which might leads to a similar way of playing as TvZ WoL during the broodLord infestor era, with only one big marine tank attack to hit a pre-Hive timing from terran.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
February 24 2016 11:24 GMT
#32
I can't believe they aren't even considering removing Nydus Invulnerability, like seriously wtf, we've already seen some absolutely atrocious games thanks to it.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36160 Posts
February 24 2016 11:26 GMT
#33
On February 24 2016 20:24 Destructicon wrote:
I can't believe they aren't even considering removing Nydus Invulnerability, like seriously wtf, we've already seen some absolutely atrocious games thanks to it.

yeah, I really don't like it at all.
[15:15] <Palmar> and yes marv, you're a total hottie
Elentos
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
55510 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:32:55
February 24 2016 11:30 GMT
#34
On February 24 2016 20:13 WrathSCII wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2016 16:21 Seeker wrote:
I'm going to be completely honest here and say that I think tankivacs should stay in the game. The concept was highly criticized at first but I think enough time has passed that players have learned to adapt to it and furthermore, utilize the strategy to its most optimal level. Just look at aLive vs TY during yesterday's afreeca vs KT match. That match was so invigorating and exciting. I think keeping tankivacs will make for much more action packed games in the long run.


Exciting to you as a viewer but not a great experience when you play it.

I'm having more fun with marine/tank TvT than I did in HotS. I hated TvT in HotS until I switched to playing mech every time. And the reason for that was that all marine/tank vs marine/tank ended up being was dropping 6 or 8 or however many medivacs full of units in your opponent's main. At least with tankivacs I can get together a good defense in my own main base.

I guess if this change goes through it'll be back to mech every TvT for me but I'm not sure how well that's gonna work on the new economy and with liberators. But people have to stop thinking that removing tank pickups = return of WoL TvT.
Every 60 seconds in Africa, a minute passes.
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3819 Posts
February 24 2016 11:32 GMT
#35
On February 24 2016 20:24 Destructicon wrote:
I can't believe they aren't even considering removing Nydus Invulnerability, like seriously wtf, we've already seen some absolutely atrocious games thanks to it.


Definitely agree on this one. Immunity has always been a really bad feature in gaming (e.g. Diablo 2, unplayable in single player mode).
Resistence >>> Immunity.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
J. Corsair
Profile Joined June 2014
United States470 Posts
February 24 2016 11:35 GMT
#36
Nydus invulnerability HAS.TO.GO. Why is blizzard not fixing this broken mechanic?

And I love tankivacs, it has made me interested again and actually is what convinced me to purchase this iteration.

IF they want to remove the tankivac, that is simply not enough of a damage increase. There needs to be either more damage or buff to shot speed, or a decrease in the time required to seige and unseige as well.

I honestly think if they remove the tankivac, you can say goodbye to seeing the tank regularly except in TvT... mech will still not be viable except maybe in TvT (and who wants to see mech when you can see Alive vs TY), and with the reduction in liberator range Terrans will be back to MMMM just like HotS. So might as well just revert the game, apparently Blizzard is uncomfortable with change.
“...it is human nature, I suppose, to be futile and ridiculous.” - Scaramouche
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3344 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-02-24 11:40:42
February 24 2016 11:38 GMT
#37
Hmm another change that might be interesting is:
Remove the ability to pick up Sieged Tanks, but give the ability to pick up Siege Tanks when they're in the animation of either becoming Sieged; or becoming Unsieged.
The outcome will always be: Siege Tank is Unsieged inside the Medivac. So you like cancel the action, or speed up the action, instead of changing mode instantly inside the Medivac.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
JackONeill
Profile Joined September 2013
861 Posts
February 24 2016 11:43 GMT
#38
Remove the damn thing already. It absolutly removes all strategy from TvT. No game plan, no baits, no diversions, just get out on the map with marines and 4 tankivacs and take an abusive position.
Sissors
Profile Joined March 2012
1395 Posts
February 24 2016 11:43 GMT
#39
If you remove the pickup, they can make the tank useful. But with the pickup in they will always need to balance it around being a highly mobile flying unit.

Heavy turtling in general is alot harder with LotV mining (not impossible, but definately not easier than hots). And with a few exceptions, really no one turtles because they like their deathball mech army. People turtle with mech because moving out is instant suicide, and late game skyterran actually does work. So turtling with mech is only an intermediate step until skyterran. If this deathball army is too strong, then you should nerf that, and not blame it on mech.
SharkStarcraft
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria2210 Posts
February 24 2016 11:55 GMT
#40
absolutely in love with these changes
Cogito, ergo Toss
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