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On February 26 2016 18:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Tank feels much better against Protoss. Not sure if it's enough for mech to be viable, but it's a good start.
TvT is vastly improved. Defenders advantage is a thing again and mech has a chance.
TvZ feels better to. You need to think a bit more about positioning and spend time spreading Tanks, but when they hit they feel strong. Longer lines of Tanks make fights last longer to and generally feel more epic.
All in all, it feels like twitch reflex are replaced by positioning and thinking. Great improvement IMO.
Position and thinking is somthing everyone can learn in about 10 games. its not hard to know where to put tanks and where to camp. what makes starcraft fun is the ability to Micro and actually make a difference whit youre reflex and skills, instead of sitting whit siege tanks and bait the other player out. we wil lfor sure se more boring games. longer games. i really hope, for the sake of the game, tankivacs stays.
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On February 26 2016 19:38 MiCroLiFe wrote:
Please do not remove tankivacs.. Its a good micro thing.. Why the hell should we promote more passive play whit camping whit tanks? rather than use them offencive and let good micro reward the player.
That's why I think they should study some kind of upgrade like the widow mine's for the mid-lategame, or keep the tankivac as a late-game upgrade and attempt to rebalance it (bigger delays).
However it is true that siegevacs at the moment need to go away, since they create more problems than solutions. The actual state of siegevac combo makes the combo strong but the tank itself weak. It's kinda paradoxal: tanks are kinda weak as siege units, but the tankivac removes their main weakness (and most important, sign of identity), positioning, turning them into strong harass units and decently mobile siege, but they cannot really work autonomously.
Let's see what the patch brings, and then study a potential rework of that combo, because the micro interaction is very interesting, but not really polished or trully balanced. It needs fine tuning for sure.
I also think that they should study a small range (+1) buff for it, since 14 is still the range of Blink+Stalker range (8+6) which is one of the problems of tanks in TvP.
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On February 26 2016 19:25 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 17:22 ejozl wrote:On February 26 2016 09:25 JCoto wrote:
Well, why not an upgrade to reduce siege/unsiege time, and maybe some AI buff to force unsiege when the Medivac is given the order to load X tank?
Keeps the micro with an intermediate skill cap (not manual unsiege but not just pick and run) and still gives the possibility to use tanks way more aggressively, with a higher skill cap than before. A cheap, decently fast upgrade with a tech requirement.
Tanks could also use an HP buff in exchange for some attack speed, being harder to snipe. 3 seconds for Tanks to unsiege vs the Lurker that almost pops out from the ground as fast as the Infestor, does seem a bit unfair (dno the actual unburrow time of Lurker.) Sorry I don't understand your post XD. I mean, reducing siege/unsiege to half its values.
I just mean Lurkers can unburrow really fast, while Siege Tanks unsieges super slow.
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siege tank damage increase? really? the rest seems fine
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On February 26 2016 21:28 SeriousLus wrote:
siege tank damage increase? really? the rest seems fine
? You really think Terran is so overpowered to remove tankivac and not buff the actual tank...stupid...
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On February 26 2016 19:41 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 18:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Tank feels much better against Protoss. Not sure if it's enough for mech to be viable, but it's a good start.
TvT is vastly improved. Defenders advantage is a thing again and mech has a chance.
TvZ feels better to. You need to think a bit more about positioning and spend time spreading Tanks, but when they hit they feel strong. Longer lines of Tanks make fights last longer to and generally feel more epic.
All in all, it feels like twitch reflex are replaced by positioning and thinking. Great improvement IMO. Position and thinking is somthing everyone can learn in about 10 games. its not hard to know where to put tanks and where to camp. what makes starcraft fun is the ability to Micro and actually make a difference whit youre reflex and skills, instead of sitting whit siege tanks and bait the other player out. we wil lfor sure se more boring games. longer games. i really hope, for the sake of the game, tankivacs stays.
Thinking that you learn that in 10 games shows you have no understanding of positioning in RTS, and so you are incapable of appreciating it.
I hope you'll learn it though, because it will expand your understanding and enjoyment of the game so much more.
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On February 26 2016 19:41 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 18:15 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Tank feels much better against Protoss. Not sure if it's enough for mech to be viable, but it's a good start.
TvT is vastly improved. Defenders advantage is a thing again and mech has a chance.
TvZ feels better to. You need to think a bit more about positioning and spend time spreading Tanks, but when they hit they feel strong. Longer lines of Tanks make fights last longer to and generally feel more epic.
All in all, it feels like twitch reflex are replaced by positioning and thinking. Great improvement IMO. Position and thinking is somthing everyone can learn in about 10 games. its not hard to know where to put tanks and where to camp. what makes starcraft fun is the ability to Micro and actually make a difference whit youre reflex and skills, instead of sitting whit siege tanks and bait the other player out. we wil lfor sure se more boring games. longer games. i really hope, for the sake of the game, tankivacs stays.
That first statement is hilariously wrong. You don't "learn positioning" in 10 games. What league are you?
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Why are so many people so eager to see mech again? It's literally 2 hours long games where nothing happens and this is why so many people left in hots. When it was viable (in WoL) I think I saw someone play mech an average 10% of my games (or even less) and each time it was absolute lamers who would build 50 towers around their bases to make their deathball and you'd have to wait ages for them to leave to actually finish the game.
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Position and thinking is somthing everyone can learn in about 10 games. its not hard to know where to put tanks and where to camp. what makes starcraft fun is the ability to Micro and actually make a difference whit youre reflex and skills, instead of sitting whit siege tanks and bait the other player out. we wil lfor sure se more boring games. longer games. i really hope, for the sake of the game, tankivacs stays.
I strongly disagree. Any NA players that knows everything about positioning and thinking should play Polt and then explain by replay how they always knew where he was positions, what he was thinking, and also tell us how you never made any positional mistake. I would bet this is true regardless of if he went Mech or Bio.
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On February 26 2016 22:52 Hurricaned wrote:
Why are so many people so eager to see mech again? It's literally 2 hours long games where nothing happens and this is why so many people left in hots. When it was viable (in WoL) I think I saw someone play mech an average 10% of my games (or even less) and each time it was absolute lamers who would build 50 towers around their bases to make their deathball and you'd have to wait ages for them to leave to actually finish the game.
Good point. Maybe a heavy gas investment Mech army with a macro lead should be enough to walk across the map after 30 minutes, and decisively end it. I mean, a protoss with better income can just end the game after 30 minutes with a few different tech choices, so can a Zerg. Why could you not produce from factories/starports which are higher tier than barracks, and just go end a game that would be over in another matchup?
Something to work on after this patch, for sure. However, I disagree with your logic as to why the Factory units should remain weak on late game offense (aka Thor, Tank, Cyclone, Hellbat). Instead, I think balanced compositions made from Factories should be as effective as anything from Bio/EB upgrades.
How often do you see a pro Terran in the lead walk across the map at 30 min and end it with mostly factory units in TvP? Very rarely or never. In TvZ? Very rarely or never.
Fix it after but only after we see how these current changes will impact balance after implementation.
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So only the siege damage is being buffed for the tank?
The argument about max population tanks vs ultraling seems incredibly idealized.
1. It was probably tested on an open map with minimal tank spread, which probably will not be the case in a game.
2. Max 1 unit is usually not the best option; adding 10 helbats and even taking away 5 tanks would probably do better.
3. I was under the impression that vs ultralisk, unsieged tank worked better (slightly better dps, no friendly splash damaged caused by the huge body of ultras)
I wonder if it will still be the better option to unsiege tanks vs ultralisk if the changes go through.
As a zerg main I am happy with the changes. As a terran player also I feel like this is too many nerfs too fast.
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I wonder how many people that are comenting have actually play the test map.
I bet all people going up in arms like they can see the future saying the game is going to be shit haven't played a single game. Or watched one.
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I think it keeps getting brushed under the rug that the Liberator was designed BEFORE tankivacs were. I don't understand the necessity of the Liberator being a mobile tank unit AND the tank being a mobile tank unit, both from the Starport. The tank needs to have an identity that is different than the liberator, and I think that is best done by buffing the tanks damage and removing its mobility.
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On February 27 2016 00:17 papapanda wrote:
So only the siege damage is being buffed for the tank?
The argument about max population tanks vs ultraling seems incredibly idealized.
1. It was probably tested on an open map with minimal tank spread, which probably will not be the case in a game.
2. Max 1 unit is usually not the best option; adding 10 helbats and even taking away 5 tanks would probably do better.
3. I was under the impression that vs ultralisk, unsieged tank worked better (slightly better dps, no friendly splash damaged caused by the huge body of ultras)
I wonder if it will still be the better option to unsiege tanks vs ultralisk if the changes go through.
As a zerg main I am happy with the changes. As a terran player also I feel like this is too many nerfs too fast.
I saw that test. It was a somewhat spread zerg player against a pretty clumped (lots of ultra splash) Terran. And before the lings were added in it wasn't even close, the tanks just stomped the ultras in the open field. Though I have no clue about what numbers of units were actually used, so I don't really see the point of the test. It takes 10 mins to adjust the unit tester with the balance suggestions and have some real tests in which you know the numbers of each side.
Anyhow, the point is that it was the addition of mass zerglings that killed that tanks, and as you said, a few hellbats with the tanks and it turns around again. The point of any tank patch should never be that mass tanks becomes impossible to beat on the ground, but that clever tank-based play becomes viable.
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On February 27 2016 00:21 Lexender wrote:
I wonder how many people that are comenting have actually play the test map.
I bet all people going up in arms like they can see the future saying the game is going to be shit haven't played a single game. Or watched one.
And not to say that it automatically means that a person cannot provide valuable feedback, but it is a fact that roughly 2/3 of the people that have played LOTV since release will not have Terran as their main race, and therefore may not be in a position to fully appreciate the impact of the balance test map changes on TvT gameplay. If you do not agree that this is a fact, you can take it as my opinion.
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On February 27 2016 00:27 atstapley wrote:
I think it keeps getting brushed under the rug that the Liberator was designed BEFORE tankivacs were. I don't understand the necessity of the Liberator being a mobile tank unit AND the tank being a mobile tank unit, both from the Starport. The tank needs to have an identity that is different than the liberator, and I think that is best done by buffing the tanks damage and removing its mobility.
+1 for sure
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On February 27 2016 00:27 atstapley wrote:
I think it keeps getting brushed under the rug that the Liberator was designed BEFORE tankivacs were
Pretty sure tank pickups were one of the first things Blizzard announced for Terran in LotV while liberators were only added several months into beta.
Also even when you remove mobility and add damage for the tank, their identity is still pretty similar. Liberator vs ground is high DPS (higher than tanks after the proposed buff I'm pretty sure) while being completely stationary and having to be repositioned. What's different? Tank has AoE damage and is accessible one tech tier earlier; liberator has more utility when unsieged, can be reactored but is slightly more expensive.
I think the liberator has to change a bit aswell for the tank to get proper identity.
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United Kingdom20320 Posts
Liberator has great mobility & one of the best anti air attacks in the game
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I don't see how the liberator and tankivac are too similar in their use. At all.
That's like saying hellion and hellbat are too similar. Or hydralisk and roach. Or immortal and colossus.
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Seems like they're going backwards imo... Do people feel that the delay in dropped siege tank shot is not enough? I feel like they're only looking at the pros again and making more changes that only tweak the game if you're a Maru-level micro'er but make it nigh un-winnable for mere mortals... What do people think about taking away friendly splash from tanks if they can't be picked up anymore? (Because, let's face it, just about everything in the fight wrecks tanks during the big engagements...)
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EPT
