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On January 25 2016 09:42 Thomasmarkle wrote:
I know the whole WSC change was a huge deal, not only for this tournament, but overall, but I would like to include my input for this. First, I really, really enjoy the best of the best sc2 games. Initially I was incredibly upset about the changes, because I knew the quality of the games would decrease for tournaments such as dreamhack that were played in EU. Secondly, I thought that it was just a cop out for getting more foreigners into the scene. That being said, this tournament was absolutely amazing. I watched, specifically not caring about viewership and just about quality, and I have always been one to be drawn into the "foreigner vs korean" aspect of the tournament, but also just seeing the best of the foreigner scene.
This specific Dreamhack provided both of best worlds: not only was Bly able to absolutely amaze me by beating both Violet and Hydra(however you think ZvZ is, he still beat them), but everyone was able to see some good games between the best of EU. It was really nice to see EU be excited and support their own players, instead of thinking "oh they are just going to get Ro16 before some Korean beats them."
I still would overall say, the WCS changes are a little too dramatic, but I don't know a better way to do this. It was a breath of fresh air to see some different finals, and I think the games proved that themselves as well.
Thank you for the games and congrats to Ptitdrogo!
Thanks for the post and congratulations to Drogo 
I definitely enjoyed watching this tournament and unlike most other tourney's where I watch foreigners get knocked out in ro16 then I stop watching In watched this to the end. Feel bad for Bly losing the finals with then scoreline not reflecting how he played.
The viewership seemed good with a CET morning start not seeming to have an impact on viewership. Also much less downtime than usual.
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I agree, I didn't feel the hype of 2012MLG which still are my fanboy peak but I enjoyed it a lot more than the last DreamHack (which the way were already not the best level around). If Korean scene survives (long shot  ) I will be happy with the change (just stop changing the format every year please).
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On January 25 2016 20:26 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 19:15 deacon.frost wrote:So, how good was the viewership? Did it bring more people? I wasn't even turning TL on, been the whole day outside oh fresh air! how was it?
Do not listen to him, outside does not actually exist!
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 25 2016 20:29 Penev wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 19:15 deacon.frost wrote:So, how good was the viewership? Did it bring more people? I wasn't even turning TL on, been the whole day outside Did you use sunblock? Viewership was the same as always I'd say, the tourney was ok.
did not need one, haven't seen the Sun in a while
Edit> Oh, and thanks for the answer.
On January 25 2016 20:26 MiCroLiFe wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 19:15 deacon.frost wrote:So, how good was the viewership? Did it bring more people? I wasn't even turning TL on, been the whole day outside oh fresh air! how was it?
It was good, bough new ice skates, had to try them 
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All I really read from the elitist bunch is the same crap I hear from other sports "fans". Football (soccer) strives on regular leagues where you identify with your local team that don't necessarily put on the best matches. It doesn't take much to realize that Barcelona duking it out against Real Madrid is a higher quality game than a couple of unknown teams playing in the local leagues.
Not watching the game because you think the games are not up to your standard is your prerrogative, you don't have to spend your time on something you don't consider entertaining if you don't want to, but don't call yourself a fan. Fans love the game for the game. Fans love their teams and players above all. You're the same as those football(soccer) band-wagoners that only tune in for the world cup and shit on weekly leagues because the quality of the play isn't that great or that only tune in when Brazil, Germany or Argentina play.
Until foreign countries have a proleague of their own, to foster local play like the koreans do, I highly doubt there are many alternatives break the status quo. I'm sure the purists will continue to whine. In my case, though, I finally enjoy watching SC2 again (and even playing it) after a 3 year hiatus, though it helps that LoTV is worlds better than the borefest that Blord Infestor was during WoL or HotS was throught until the very end even if it's still broken.
I personally like the potential this new system brings and I liked this Dreamhack a lot. Besides, restricting attendees for tournaments by region is barely anything new in traditional sports. They figured it out long ago that the local hero narrative is a great attention grabber.
PS: Congrats to Drogo and congrats to France
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Every thread turns into a debate about WCS nowadays. Gz to Drogo, it's a big achievement and I hope he does well in future tournaments as well. He looks really really strong.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On January 25 2016 21:36 lugaidster wrote:
All I really read from the elitist bunch is the same crap I hear from other sports "fans". Football (soccer) strives on regular leagues where you identify with your local team that don't necessarily put on the best matches. It doesn't take much to realize that Barcelona duking it out against Real Madrid is a higher quality game than a couple of unknown teams playing in the local leagues.
Not watching the game because you think the games are not up to your standard is your prerrogative, you don't have to spend your time on something you don't consider entertaining if you don't want to, but don't call yourself a fan. Fans love the game for the game. Fans love their teams and players above all. You're the same as those football(soccer) band-wagoners that only tune in for the world cup and shit on weekly leagues because the quality of the play isn't that great or that only tune in when Brazil, Germany or Argentina play.
Until foreign countries have a proleague of their own, to foster local play like the koreans do, I highly doubt there are many alternatives break the status quo. I'm sure the purists will continue to whine. In my case, though, I finally enjoy watching SC2 again (and even playing it) after a 3 year hiatus, though it helps that LoTV is worlds better than the borefest that Blord Infestor was during WoL or HotS was throught until the very end even if it's still broken.
I personally like the potential this new system brings and I liked this Dreamhack a lot. Besides, restricting attendees for tournaments by region is barely anything new in traditional sports. They figured it out long ago that the local hero narrative is a great attention grabber.
PS: Congrats to Drogo and congrats to France
I won't speak for others, but my view>
First of all, I don't watch because the quality of the game is lower than in Korea(which is most of the time true) = well, no, that's not true. It was alway even with Koreans(The top Koreans were not that much into traveling anyway). I don't watch because they banned Korean players and I don't agree with that. That's the only reason.
Second - Korea has a specific conditions. Foreigners will NEVER have their conditions. All Korean teams are in 1 area and in 1 town(mroe or less). Compare to foreigners, the teams are not on the same continent!!!! How they can have a similar conditions? BTW IIRC they had a "proleague", it was called Acer TeamStory Cup and it is somehow not here from 2014, I wonder why...
Third thing - at the beginning of SC2 foreign teams won huge piles of money because back then foreigners actually mattered. Namely EG. But they haven't fostered talents back then, why do you think they will foster new talents now?
This system hurts Korean players and I hate it.
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Great tournament really. I agree with the changes.
But can any1 tell where were the Jaedong? Polt? Stardust? ForGG? Hadn't they all gotten their athlete visa at some point last here? Or were they all knocked out b4 round of 16, which seems so unlikely to me?
Or am I missing something relative to the new system?
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On January 25 2016 22:34 Trizztein1 wrote:
Great tournament really. I agree with the changes.
But can any1 tell where were the Jaedong? Polt? Stardust? ForGG? Hadn't they all gotten their athlete visa at some point last here? Or were they all knocked out b4 round of 16, which seems so unlikely to me?
Or am I missing something relative to the new system?
Stardust isn't playing SC2 atm (he's been streaming Brood War), ForGG moved back to KR and will likely retire soon, JD doesn't want to play WCS this year (he's in Code A). Not sure about Polt, he probably just didn't feel like it.
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On January 25 2016 22:09 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 21:36 lugaidster wrote:
All I really read from the elitist bunch is the same crap I hear from other sports "fans". Football (soccer) strives on regular leagues where you identify with your local team that don't necessarily put on the best matches. It doesn't take much to realize that Barcelona duking it out against Real Madrid is a higher quality game than a couple of unknown teams playing in the local leagues.
Not watching the game because you think the games are not up to your standard is your prerrogative, you don't have to spend your time on something you don't consider entertaining if you don't want to, but don't call yourself a fan. Fans love the game for the game. Fans love their teams and players above all. You're the same as those football(soccer) band-wagoners that only tune in for the world cup and shit on weekly leagues because the quality of the play isn't that great or that only tune in when Brazil, Germany or Argentina play.
Until foreign countries have a proleague of their own, to foster local play like the koreans do, I highly doubt there are many alternatives break the status quo. I'm sure the purists will continue to whine. In my case, though, I finally enjoy watching SC2 again (and even playing it) after a 3 year hiatus, though it helps that LoTV is worlds better than the borefest that Blord Infestor was during WoL or HotS was throught until the very end even if it's still broken.
I personally like the potential this new system brings and I liked this Dreamhack a lot. Besides, restricting attendees for tournaments by region is barely anything new in traditional sports. They figured it out long ago that the local hero narrative is a great attention grabber.
PS: Congrats to Drogo and congrats to France I won't speak for others, but my view> First of all, I don't watch because the quality of the game is lower than in Korea(which is most of the time true) = well, no, that's not true. It was alway even with Koreans(The top Koreans were not that much into traveling anyway). I don't watch because they banned Korean players and I don't agree with that. That's the only reason. Second - Korea has a specific conditions. Foreigners will NEVER have their conditions. All Korean teams are in 1 area and in 1 town(mroe or less). Compare to foreigners, the teams are not on the same continent!!!! How they can have a similar conditions? BTW IIRC they had a "proleague", it was called Acer TeamStory Cup and it is somehow not here from 2014, I wonder why... Third thing - at the beginning of SC2 foreign teams won huge piles of money because back then foreigners actually mattered. Namely EG. But they haven't fostered talents back then, why do you think they will foster new talents now? This system hurts Korean players and I hate it.
Your first point is true. Top Korean players, especially those from KeSPA, don't perform particularly well in international weekend tourneys - probably a combination of jet lag, less preparation time, being out of comfort zone, less pressure to win compared to Proleague/GSL, etc. The likes of Innovation, Rain, Life always look more shaky and quite beatable by foreigners in such tourneys. And LoTV is relatively new, so the playing field is more level. As someone pointed out (I forgot who and which thread), right now is ironically the best time for foreigners to roll over Koreans (and true enough, Violet and Hyda got rolled over).
So I think banning Koreans from DH actually hurts both Koreans (not being able to compete) and foreigners (not having the chance and bragging rights to beat KeSPA Koreans when they are in the best position to).
(From a viewer perspective, the quality of the games with or without the ban is not much of a difference. Yes, one of the top Koreans would eventually eke out a win, but it's quite possible for a foreigner or two to make it to the semis or even the finals to put up a good fight. For example last year, Classic and Rain dropped games to Snute and Lilbow, Hydra got reverse 3-2ed by Lilbow in WCS, etc.)
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I rather think they are afraid to make wet viewers. The one from Life was excellent that he sprayed the ground. Stephano didnt care and celebrated like a champ at WCS 2012 EU.
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On January 25 2016 22:40 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 22:34 Trizztein1 wrote:
Great tournament really. I agree with the changes.
But can any1 tell where were the Jaedong? Polt? Stardust? ForGG? Hadn't they all gotten their athlete visa at some point last here? Or were they all knocked out b4 round of 16, which seems so unlikely to me?
Or am I missing something relative to the new system? Stardust isn't playing SC2 atm (he's been streaming Brood War), ForGG moved back to KR and will likely retire soon, JD doesn't want to play WCS this year (he's in Code A). Not sure about Polt, he probably just didn't feel like it.
Thank you! Polt not feeling like it?? Haha too many wins makes you lazy kappa 😉
User was warned for this post
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I won't speak for others, but my view>
First of all, I don't watch because the quality of the game is lower than in Korea(which is most of the time true) = well, no, that's not true. It was alway even with Koreans(The top Koreans were not that much into traveling anyway). I don't watch because they banned Korean players and I don't agree with that. That's the only reason.
Well, I never said it applied to you, there are others, though, that don't watch because, allegedly, the games are lower quality. You can find them in this thread and in other places. To them, I say they aren't real fans anyway. With regards to you not watching because they "banned" korean players, well, that's your prerrogative.
Second - Korea has a specific conditions. Foreigners will NEVER have their conditions. All Korean teams are in 1 area and in 1 town(mroe or less). Compare to foreigners, the teams are not on the same continent!!!! How they can have a similar conditions? BTW IIRC they had a "proleague", it was called Acer TeamStory Cup and it is somehow not here from 2014, I wonder why...
Foreigners is a very generic term that applies to any non-korean (and I'm sure you know that). The reason I make this distinction is because while not all foreigners can have the same conditions, some specific foreigners in specific countries or regions could (Like, maybe, France as a country or Europe as a region). The point is, though, that without infraestructure and economic incentives, the development of the foreign scene is going to suffer. Since there's no proleague outside of Korea, no other country can foster players the same way Korea can. This translates to a widening gap that we already know exists. Because of that, you need to look at other ways to foster it.
Region-locking tournaments creates the monetary incentive for new and unexperienced players to try and practice and become better since they can secure, at least, some income. It is important to allow new and talented players a shot to win tournament money, and it's also important to allow representation from underrepresented regions. It works like this in other sports, and it works well. Region-locking also allows more casual viewers to relate to the personalities they watch in the games. While this is not a weekly league like Korea has, it presents similar opportunities on a bigger scale (though harder to crack).
Third thing - at the beginning of SC2 foreign teams won huge piles of money because back then foreigners actually mattered. Namely EG. But they haven't fostered talents back then, why do you think they will foster new talents now?
Teams are economic entities. If the investment isn't playing out, they don't have to continue their investment. Since it didn't pay out for them and they didn't continue to foster foreigners, what are we to do... Resign? Accept the status quo? Not region-locking the tournaments didn't do anything but lead to stagnation. Something had to be tried even if not everyone will be happy (as can be clearly seen by your, and others', comments). The question is, though, will the loss of viewers like you be offset by new or returning viewers? I believe it will be, but only time will tell. At least, they gained me back, so I'm offsetting you  .
This system hurts Korean players and I hate it.
The Korean eSports scene never needed international viewers or events to succeed. They made it without us, and they will continue to exist with or without us. They don't need your charity. You can hate it, though. That is, also, your prerrogative.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On January 25 2016 23:37 RKC wrote:
The likes of Innovation, Rain, Life always look more shaky and quite beatable by foreigners in such tourneys.
To be fair, in general they just look shaky (and rather often that's because they play jetlagged as they couldn't be arsed to get there early ) but still win the overwhelming amount of series against non-Koreans despite dropping some games. The actual KeSPA players were still more often than not stopped by other Koreans instead.
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I have to confess, I was a bit disappointed that Drogo didn't already crush face in Jönköping. I was a true believer back then. Even better to see him succeed now, i hope he can keep it up!
Also the new WCS system really reinvigorated the foreign scene. Its awesome to see all these pros so motivated to do well in 2016. This will be a perfect year if the next events can build on this Dreamhack and get bigger again. Maybe we will see some international events with Koreans as well. Can't wait for Blizzcon.
Oh.. and gogo TLO!! I would love him getting a trophy as well. such a hard worker
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On January 26 2016 00:22 wtfishedoing wrote:
I have to confess, I was a bit disappointed that Drogo didn't already crush face in Jönköping. I was a true believer back then. Even better to see him succeed now, i hope he can keep it up!
Also the new WCS system really reinvigorated the foreign scene. Its awesome to see all these pros so motivated to do well in 2016. This will be a perfect year if the next events can build on this Dreamhack and get bigger again. Maybe we will see some international events with Koreans as well. Can't wait for Blizzcon.
Oh.. and gogo TLO!! I would love him getting a trophy as well. such a hard worker
TLO had great games IMHO. It's been a while since I've seen him playing this well.
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On January 25 2016 21:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 20:29 Penev wrote:On January 25 2016 19:15 deacon.frost wrote:So, how good was the viewership? Did it bring more people? I wasn't even turning TL on, been the whole day outside Did you use sunblock? Viewership was the same as always I'd say, the tourney was ok. did not need one, haven't seen the Sun in a while Edit> Oh, and thanks for the answer.
A vampire that misses the sun? :o
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On January 26 2016 00:06 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2016 23:37 RKC wrote:
The likes of Innovation, Rain, Life always look more shaky and quite beatable by foreigners in such tourneys. To be fair, in general they just look shaky (and rather often that's because they play jetlagged as they couldn't be arsed to get there early ) but still win the overwhelming amount of series against non-Koreans despite dropping some games. The actual KeSPA players were still more often than not stopped by other Koreans instead.
Agreed. Top Koreans will always get top results, even if they performed below their best. My point was just that having a few top Koreans present in international weekend tourneys didn't really increase the quality of games from a viewer perspective.
Ultimately, the changes were made for foreigners to get higher finishes and more money. And this, in turn, will hopefully sustain the scene for the long run. Whether they can compete with top Koreans at Blizzcon end of the year is irrelevant. The aim is to ensure foreigners stick around for 2-3 more years to keep competing with top Koreans (if they don't drop off first). Whether viewership increase is irrelevant (so long as it doesn't drop). The aim is to ensure that foreigners keep playing and the existing viewers keep watching for 2-3 more years. Sustainability - that's the main plan. I get it. Whether the plan works, it's anybody's guess.
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On January 25 2016 20:28 Cdtf wrote:
That poor Bly.
Kick the two Koreans out of the tournament, the lose finals to a foreigner.
same for Mana in wcs s3 2015...
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/65909000/jpg/_65909040_151144642.jpg)
