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stuchiu
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH You'd be pissed off too every time you won a tournament and David Kim uses your victory as an excuse to not nerf BL/infestor or blink era or Mass Mutas another 3 months. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On January 12 2016 05:09 RaFox17 wrote: Yes but that does mean that Taeja could not have had problems playing with Z or P. Sure that's true. I'm just talking historical precedent of Terran players. | ||
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WidowMineHero
New Zealand143 Posts
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hunterzubrus
United States20 Posts
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Merkmerk
United States96 Posts
On January 11 2016 19:35 Big J wrote: I don't think he cares. If you play mech you are stupid, don't take the game seriously or you found a way to make it work. In either case you have no right to complain about TvZ. All factory units see use. Worst case scenario you need 4 upgrades to support a bio + factory unit army. That's not that much different than zerg needing air upgrades + ground upgrades. Protoss has 3 ground upgrades and so does Zerg. This notion that Terran players should be able to make factory only units because of silly crap they make up like "the upgrades are spread out!" is pure nonsense. | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On January 11 2016 12:38 MoonyD wrote: No surprises here to see Terran and Zerg players complaining about Adepts. Props to Bomber for being such a badass and not crying over 'imba' unlike the others. you are either misunderstanding the sarcasm, or misplacing your own. as for the adepts, have someone experienced with the build to go into a custom lobby with you, as a terran player. even if the player across several games only builds adept pressure half the time, it's enough to force you to make an early cyclone nearly every game. if you've never played against someone who's good with it, you'll not know how much stress it puts on you. | ||
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p68
100 Posts
On January 12 2016 05:32 Merkmerk wrote: All factory units see use. Worst case scenario you need 4 upgrades to support a bio + factory unit army. That's not that much different than zerg needing air upgrades + ground upgrades. Protoss has 3 ground upgrades and so does Zerg. This notion that Terran players should be able to make factory only units because of silly crap they make up like "the upgrades are spread out!" is pure nonsense. Not this again... What's pure nonsense is the inability of people to recognize that this a clear example that Terran simply isn't symmetrical to the other races, and it's only in a disadvantaged way. One has to consider the average length of LOTV matches, the costs, and the tech involved. Terran must obtain a tier 3 tech building, the Armory, to start mech upgrades. Protoss and Zerg require a Tier 1 building. Additionally, if each race wanted to get their ground units fully upgraded in a timely manner, consider the initial investment involved: Zerg: three drones + three evolution chambers = 375/0 + opportunity cost of three larvae Protoss: three forges: 450/0 Terran: two engineering bays + two armories = 550/200 + cost of lost mining time for each worker for the entire duration of construction Given the short and harass-heavy nature of LOTV matches, long term investments must be made more cautiously, and higher initial investment costs do, indeed, take their toll. If Blizzard doesn't want factory play to be a separate entity from bio, the upgrades need to be better distributed (while still maintaining 5 total upgrades like the other races) to encourage biomech compositions. I'd rather see one upgrade shared universally across ground units instead of shared between factory and starport, personally. Blizzard doesn't seem to like where factory/starport compositions lead in HOTS anyway and made changes to discourage it. But of course, people will continue to belittle these differences as if it's nothing, because if you don't play Terran, it's not your problem. And if it's not your problem, it's easy to dismiss it. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: You have to go Ling/Muta against very good terran or they gonna exploit your immobility  Roach Ravager are not bad, but 4 medivac drop at each base is better haha  Don't agree. We'll se in few months what's the meta. For now whenever i see Zerg going melee/muta it's usually easy win for Terran. | ||
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jinjin5000
United States1432 Posts
On January 12 2016 06:30 p68 wrote: Not this again... What's pure nonsense is the inability of people to recognize that this a clear example that Terran simply isn't symmetrical to the other races, and it's only in a disadvantaged way. One has to consider the average length of LOTV matches, the costs, and the tech involved. Terran must obtain a tier 3 tech building, the Armory, to start mech upgrades. Protoss and Zerg require a Tier 1 building. Additionally, if each race wanted to get their ground units fully upgraded in a timely manner, consider the initial investment involved: Zerg: three drones + three evolution chambers = 375/0 + opportunity cost of three larvae Protoss: three forges: 450/0 Terran: two engineering bays + two armories = 550/200 + cost of lost mining time for each worker for the entire duration of construction Given the short and harass-heavy nature of LOTV matches, long term investments must be made more cautiously, and higher initial investment costs do, indeed, take their toll. If Blizzard doesn't want factory play to be a separate entity from bio, the upgrades need to be better distributed (while still maintaining 5 total upgrades like the other races) to encourage biomech compositions. I'd rather see one upgrade shared universally across ground units instead of shared between factory and starport, personally. Blizzard doesn't seem to like where factory/starport compositions lead in HOTS anyway and made changes to discourage it. But of course, people will continue to belittle these differences as if it's nothing, because if you don't play Terran, it's not your problem. And if it's not your problem, it's easy to dismiss it. Dont bother work arguing with merkmerk. I have never seen him change his stance and all hi viewpoints come from his ladder frustrstions. Threat him like zerglingshepard while back. | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12261 Posts
On January 12 2016 06:20 nanaoei wrote: you are either misunderstanding the sarcasm, or misplacing your own. as for the adepts, have someone experienced with the build to go into a custom lobby with you, as a terran player. even if the player across several games only builds adept pressure half the time, it's enough to force you to make an early cyclone nearly every game. if you've never played against someone who's good with it, you'll not know how much stress it puts on you. I'd be interested. I'm platinum right now but I'm usually diamond, I can't get back cause I get disconnected something like one game out of four, which is really annoying. My terran is very weak but I'd be okay with custom games and see what we can find out. | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 12 2016 06:43 keglu wrote: Don't agree. We'll se in few months what's the meta. For now whenever i see Zerg going melee/muta it's usually easy win for Terran. I don't agree on your opinion. I have different opinion. I think we will get small baneling buff and ravager/roach nerf soon In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros). At beginning I was looking many europe games and I played on ladder Roach Ravager too, but then when good terran came I couldn't handle the drops and tanks. I think foreigners not quite adapted to larvae mechanic and that is biggest problem. You need better management of all things. When you play muta ling baneling it feel like you have no larvae, but once you get hang of it, taking faster fourth base and macro hatch and better inject-timings then it gets easier. Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region. TvZ is very dynamic matchup and requires awareness on both ends. Terran have many tools to disrupt zergs like reaper, marine push, medivac tanks, hellions, firebats, liberator, medivac drops and banshees. Zerg has only all-ins as option to be aggressive. Like roach ravager push, baneling bust or nydus. The problem you are observing with TvZ and muta/ling lose is because of following : - Game is very early and terrans are very greedy currently ! They go reaper harass into 3 base tech + macro without a care in world. If Zerg go muta in that time then terran win because greedy. If Zerg go attack all-in in that time then Zerg win. That is situation on Europe/NA. It is same situation in korea, but they actually exploit that behavior then ! That is why you see many koreans go muta, they know good terrans know and can't bust all-in so easy. But some go still all-in because matchup terran favored. It can be hard time going mid game against perfect-timing-push-high-apm-korean-terrans. In EU/NA it looks more like : - nothing happens all game long. No harass from terran, no drops. Zerg techs to ultralisks and win with 3/3 plate upgrade! In korea it is like : - harass, drops, widow mines, liberator, drops, tanks, tank drops and then out of nowhere crucial timing push right before zerg get army going. Terran easy win. To counter all this only option is muta. Don't forget when skill level change so do meta and strategy. If we lets say discuss strategy on silver gold level of play then roach / ravager very very strong. probably overpowerd strong ! I don't say all EU/NA terran are like that, but it is what I noticed so far (only my personal honest opinion I made from observations since LOTV. When I am honest I think I am very right with my view ^__^ ) | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
What were Solar builds againts Byun in OSC. He 6:2 Byun while Byun 2:0 Soo playing ling/bane/muta 70:30 is beyond broken btw and never happened in history of sc2 excluding very small sample size. | ||
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TelecoM
United States10675 Posts
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: In EU/NA it looks more like : - nothing happens all game long. No harass from terran, no drops. Zerg techs to ultralisks and win with 3/3 plate upgrade! In korea it is like : - harass, drops, widow mines, liberator, drops, tanks, tank drops and then out of nowhere crucial timing push right before zerg get army going. Terran easy win. To counter all this only option is muta. Don't forget when skill level change so do meta and strategy. If we lets say discuss strategy on silver gold level of play then roach / ravager very very strong. probably overpowerd strong ! I don't say all EU/NA terran are like that, but it is what I noticed so far I'm sorry, what level are you playing at again? No decent Terran players even on NA just LET Zerg Macro to Ultralisk and win easy...Most GM / Top master Terran players are just going 2-3 rax mass reaper and transitioning easily vs Zerg, Reaper mine is way too strong vs Zerg at the moment, Terran really has to make a mistake in order for you to win vs this style it seems.... | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 12 2016 07:37 keglu wrote: So you are saying that foreign Zergs not adapted to LotV by doing good and Korean Zergs adapated by doing bad? What were Solar builds againts Byun in OSC. He 6:2 Byun while Byun 2:0 Soo playing ling/bane/muta 70:30 is beyond broken btw and never happened in history of sc2 excluding very small sample size. Nono sorry wrong english by me. it somestimes hard. What I mean is that korean terrans to give zergs harder time. Like when people punch you hard eventually you get stronger and learn to dodge punches and take them like real man! I think 70:30 TvZ in korean pro games is only at the moment. It will even out. Zerg players are strong and always adept so in future they less likely die to cheesy strategy by terran and know timings betters. I hope you understand. I don't say it because of balance, but because ahead of meta. It is constantly evolving. Maybe I am wrong and zerg get really really good in future with roach/ravager, but it is sooooooo hard to defend drops with roach ravagers  All I say in my post I mean nice and not as insult | ||
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A_needle_jog
Korea (South)699 Posts
On January 12 2016 07:44 GGzerG wrote: I'm sorry, what level are you playing at again? No decent Terran players even on NA just LET Zerg Macro to Ultralisk and win easy...Most GM / Top master Terran players are just going 2-3 rax mass reaper and transitioning easily vs Zerg, Reaper mine is way too strong vs Zerg at the moment, Terran really has to make a mistake in order for you to win vs this style it seems.... I play on korea ladder master league | ||
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happyGo
United States20 Posts
Luckily, Blizzard has access to every Grandmaster vs Grandmaster game/matchup stat, probably on a daily level. All it would take to refute Crank's anecdotal evidence would be stats that show 45%> win rate for Z and T against P amongst GMs in the last week... Even then, the meta is changing on a weekly basis. Give it another two weeks. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2648 Posts
On January 12 2016 07:50 happyGo wrote: I dunno about this...it's always going to be possible to find one person from each race who will say something is IMBA. Luckily, Blizzard has access to every Grandmaster vs Grandmaster game/matchup stat, probably on a daily level. All it would take to refute Crank's anecdotal evidence would be stats that show 45%> win rate for Z and T against P amongst GMs in the last week... Even then, the meta is changing on a weekly basis. Give it another two weeks. Yep its just because Crank is an asshole its not like other protoss players have said the same thing, nope not all, its just Crank asking biased people. | ||
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CheddarToss
534 Posts
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race. What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment. | ||
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xtorn
4060 Posts
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote: What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment. I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument. Copy pasted my post from another thread I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread. If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss. Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not! It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league. | ||
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