Surprised to see just how frustrated these guys are by Adepts. Maybe it's just because I don't have the multitasking to take true advantage of the unit, but they don't seem THAT OP to me. The very highest levels of Korean competition are a completely different world from mine, though.
I'm also worried about what Protoss is going to be like if both Photon Overcharge and Adept/WP get a nerf. Protoss is honestly pretty weak outside of those key advantages, and Blizz has to be REALLY careful with what they nerf there if they want to keep the pendulum from swinging way too far to the opposite side.
they should do little changes at first to see how stuff would turn out and not major changes like over-nerfing some units. I think make Warp Prism costs gas and PO cost more energy (a number between 25-50) and add more cool down to Adepts should be good enough
Pros complaining about the state of a game that gives them a source of income. Nothing new. And people will continue telling themselves balance at the pro level has any impact on their master league games.
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
very intelligent post.
It's exaggerated way too hard but there is some truth at the start. When you see TaeJa say it's not fair that terrans don't get to be on the map aggressively... Of course it's fair. You can't have the advantage in early-midgame AND the advantage in tech at the same time, that goes without saying. The last time it happened, it was called the blink era. I hear that wasn't a great time. And on top of that, you don't think it's fair a race has to defend? Oh, I'm really really sorry about that, I'll make sure to remember that the next time I play a race that needs to either all-in or be defensive for five years, and everyone on the ladder tells me that I'm trash for doing it because it's so easy.
I'd love to see Blizzard nerf PO & adept & WP, then force fucked by whole Zerg & Terran arsenal.I wonder, if Bomber'd shit salt after that.
What I understand from progames and streams, toss has literally zero early game presence(offense) besides adept+WP. Sentries are weaker, forward warpins are weaker(pylon+gateway), it looks even worse than Hots.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
Koreans still play melee/muta a lot. Also which Korean Terrans said that?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
Koreans still play melee/muta a lot. Also which Korean Terrans said that?
After the SSL qualifiers most said TvZ was okay, Dream said TvZ is 70-30 in T favour on Friday after his match vs HyuN.
On January 11 2016 16:26 blade55555 wrote: You should watch how Korean's play TvZ and win not only in mid game, but also late game. Rather then being so stubborn/ignorant/naive, how about you actually watch how good Terran's play and *gasp* take that into your playstyle? Your turtle into dying/qq isn't the way to play and never has been.
The Korean TvZs I've been watching have been terrans basically all in-ing before late game happens. Heck, in OSC byun scouted ultras and just left the game twice. It may overall be balanced, but it's the same sort of idea behind immortal/sentry or die to broodlord/infestor. If you were to let zerg consistently get there like the queen range buff did in wings, we'd be in trouble. It doesn't even need to be a buff, just a meta shift.
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: You have to go Ling/Muta against very good terran or they gonna exploit your immobility
Roach Ravager are not bad, but 4 medivac drop at each base is better haha
Ya I tend to agree with muta/ling being superior as a harass deterrent but snute has been showing a very strong roach rav infestor mid/late game and I like. We'll see how it holds up at the highest level.
Well Terrans should feel lucky that Protoss hasn't figured out that the Warp Prism is not a MsC and that you can get more then one. Prism range pick up and Shields make the Prism stand on Medivac level of forgiving Imo when it comes to microing a drop. And currently the prism basically reads: "give defensive blink to any unit", so its also nice in a fight. Atleast my cost efficiency went pretty up with it.
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
I get your sentiment, but the comparison between the warp prism and medivac is problematic.
Warp prisms and medivacs have the same storage capacity (8), it's just that Protoss players only build 1 in the current meta. Another reason you can't pickup the "whole army" is due to its distinct advantage: you can warp in units wherever you'd like! And if you warp in units, you might exceed the cargo capacity, yes...And yes, it immobilizes itself to allow for such a powerful ability. Strange that was somehow twisted into an overall disadvantage...
I mean, hell, you can send an empty warp prism to an enemy base and just build the units you'd like to harass with when you arrive.
Regarding the "only 1 location" comment, isn't that up to the player...? You can build more than one warp prism you know...or you can send adept shades into one location for harass, and drop/warp-in another location simultaneously.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
Yes but that does mean that Taeja could not have had problems playing with Z or P.
EPT
