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I think the part to keep of the Adept would be the damage vs light, killing workers in two shots is important. Maybe make it so the shade cant be cancelled past a certain time(like haflway?) or that shade can't be cancelled until research from twilight?
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Thank you CranK 
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On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it.
Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
You should watch how Korean's play TvZ and win not only in mid game, but also late game. Rather then being so stubborn/ignorant/naive, how about you actually watch how good Terran's play and *gasp* take that into your playstyle? Your turtle into dying/qq isn't the way to play and never has been.
If Blizzard actually took balance complaints from you seriously, Terran would be so overpowered it would be ridiculous (of course you'd say it was balanced or still needs buffs). Get off your high horse and stop thinking you are this amazing player when you really aren't and never have been. Every time you lose in tvz, it's not because of balance it's because of how poorly you play it and you refuse to admit it. This has always been your problem and why you will never, ever become a top player.
On that note, thanks Crank. I would have liked some more Q/A, but interesting to see the thought process in Korea .
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I don't follow SC2 that much anymore since all of my favorite players are basically gone. I'm surprised Taeja is still playing since I thought 2015 would be his last year. Did his military service not start yet?
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On January 11 2016 16:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo. It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it. Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
The only reason every mech player goes to 200/200 before moving out is because Blizzard's favorite pastime is nerfing mech, with as result that moving out before you are at 200/200 is suicidal (generally, of course if the zerg is pure teching to BLs asap and only has lings you don't wait until the BLs are done). Even at 200/200 it is generally a bad idea to move out if you actually want to win.
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Bomber speaks the truth
Oh and thank you Crank! Much appreciated!
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On January 11 2016 16:36 astray71 wrote:
I don't follow SC2 that much anymore since all of my favorite players are basically gone. I'm surprised Taeja is still playing since I thought 2015 would be his last year. Did his military service not start yet?
Not yet, just waiting for it to start I believe. He's not doing much anymore though.
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Russian Federation262 Posts
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Russian Federation93 Posts
WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
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On January 11 2016 16:53 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 16:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo. It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it. Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out. The only reason every mech player goes to 200/200 before moving out is because Blizzard's favorite pastime is nerfing mech, with as result that moving out before you are at 200/200 is suicidal (generally, of course if the zerg is pure teching to BLs asap and only has lings you don't wait until the BLs are done). Even at 200/200 it is generally a bad idea to move out if you actually want to win.
I don't think he cares. If you play mech you are stupid, don't take the game seriously or you found a way to make it work. In either case you have no right to complain about TvZ.
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France12819 Posts
Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit.
TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease.
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On January 11 2016 19:40 Poopi wrote:
Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit.
TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease.
TvZ certainly was not 50/50 at that point. There is a reason why we used to say GomTvT. Whether Blizzard did a good job of nerfing Terran and bunker afterwards is another matter. :p
On the topic itself, I would take anything that anyone who makes a living off playing with a grain of salt. They will obviously whine to win. There is no fairness or greater principles in that (otherwise where were their principles then when they decided to play WCS/foreign tourneys? Sure they are more skilled but nobody can deny either that foreigners were ever given the same chances to get better). They just want to win and they are in their right to think so.
Also out of curiosity I'd like to know the views of players from bigger teams (SKT, KT mainly).
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On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote:
WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
very intelligent post.
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On January 11 2016 20:57 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote:
WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something? very intelligent post.
Indeed. I am impressed.
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What about reducing the health of WP, so queens/cyclone can kill it easier. Also they should remove pick up range from gateway units but still let it be viable for robotics units.
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France12819 Posts
On January 11 2016 20:37 PPN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 19:40 Poopi wrote:
Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit.
TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease. TvZ certainly was not 50/50 at that point. There is a reason why we used to say GomTvT. Whether Blizzard did a good job of nerfing Terran and bunker afterwards is another matter. :p On the topic itself, I would take anything that anyone who makes a living off playing with a grain of salt. They will obviously whine to win. There is no fairness or greater principles in that (otherwise where were their principles then when they decided to play WCS/foreign tourneys? Sure they are more skilled but nobody can deny either that foreigners were ever given the same chances to get better). They just want to win and they are in their right to think so. Also out of curiosity I'd like to know the views of players from bigger teams (SKT, KT mainly).
Right before b/l TvZ was at 50-50.
There were numerous patches and GomTvT lasted longer because it was hard to drop from code S once you were in but TvZ with a big sample size was indeed at 50-50, Blizzard just likes to tweak things for their own amusement.
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If this was LoL, Adept would have been nerfed long before the game was launched.
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OMG Adept is broken. Who would have guessed? In all honestly sometimes i actually tune into that maximusbrown streamer just to see him abuse the fuck out of them to get free wins that he doesent deserve.
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What I don't get with the adept is the need for them to 2-shot workers. I mean adepts were supposed to be a new core unit of the protoss army, allowing them to fight MMM in low supply situations. Why give them so much "harass utility" ? With their shade and ability to 2-shot workers, they just turned into another page of the "protoss bullshit Bible"...
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EPT
