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On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
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On January 11 2016 06:55 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:50 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1. That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse. So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs. On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL@this -
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand. You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you. This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense.
I'll do what I want. Laugh at me again if you wish, that is the mature thing to do, right? Then get mad when I call you out. Mature things to do. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
Oh, solid defense is the best way to play huh? Damn, someone should have told MC, Puma, Parting, Maru, ect... Do you give lessons?
On January 11 2016 06:56 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
But you took his quote out of context. Read it again, he never said T wasn't underrepresented in 2014.
He said they didn't nerf BL/Infestor in Korea because Terran was the best represented race except for the very last season.
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WHAT NO KOREAN COMMENTS ON SLOWER GAME SPEEDS FOR LOWER LEAGUE PLAYERS?
WTF... Crank did you cut those comments out? Surely they were made?!
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On January 11 2016 06:56 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
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On January 11 2016 06:58 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:55 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:50 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1. That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse. So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs. On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL@this -
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand. You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you. This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense. I'll do what I want. Laugh at me again if you wish, that is the mature thing to do, right? Then get mad when I call you out. Mature things to do. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat. Oh, solid defense is the best way to play huh? Damn, someone should have told MC, Puma, Parting, Maru, ect... Do you give lessons?
LOL now you are so mad you aren't even reading..
My point was that post all the agiulac stats you want about how of the 6000000 ladder games Protoss is winning less than 50% - that isn't remotely relevant to the discussion - unless you think that bronze level players are exploiting imbalance at the same rate of return as professionals are - that is not a "solid defense". ^^
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On January 11 2016 07:00 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:56 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point.
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Aligulac isn't based on ladder games. It is based on the games of the best players. That is why there is only 1021 TvZ games in Decembers statistics. If they took all ladder games from all leagues into account, it'd be many times that. Batting one thousand today.
So do you think Bronze level players exploit imbalance better or worse than professionals? I'm quite curious about that.
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On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/
There's definitely some psychology involved
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
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On January 11 2016 07:01 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:00 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:56 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to. Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point.
i did not even respond to that comment... I responded to Wire and Glorfindel!'s post that balance always goes to 50-50 and that terran was underrepresented througout bl/inf.
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On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh -
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they're too pro for static defense..
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On January 11 2016 07:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:01 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 07:00 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:56 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:54 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to. Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point. i did not even respond to that comment... I responded to Wire and Glorfindel!'s post that balance always goes to 50-50 and that terran was underrepresented througout bl/inf.
My mistake - the way the notes lined up I assumed you did.
But to your original point - you recall the evolution of infestor / BL right?
The queen buff enabled it - and it was a couple of seasons of code S before Z figured out they could greed out off 3 base right to Bl/infestor and as soon as they did it was clearly imbalanced - and then HOTS came out soon after
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On January 11 2016 07:05 DomeGetta wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh -
Ahh, so you watched one TvZ match where a Zerg player won and conclude the matchup is fine? Because it is snowing outside right now, global warming must not be real also huh?
In Nationwars III, Terran won 72% of their games against Zerg. Terran had a 71% winrate in GPL 2015 Season 3, and 61.5% GSL preseason. But the one game you watched definitely trumps that. I like you.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_III
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Pre-Season/Week_2
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2015_Season_3/Premier
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On January 11 2016 07:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:05 DomeGetta wrote:On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh - Ahh, so you watched one TvZ match where a Zerg player won and conclude the matchup is fine? Because it is snowing outside right now, global warming must not be real also huh? In Nationwars III, Terran won 72% of their games against Zerg. Terran had a 71% winrate in GPL 2015 Season 3, and 61.5% GSL preseason. But the one game you watched definitely trumps that. I like you. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/NationWars_IIIhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2016_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Pre-Season/Week_2http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GPL_2015_Season_3/Premier
First - it was a series of games not one game.
2nd - I don't know if tvz is fine - I just said I don't think it's really favored for either side.
I mentioned the marinelord games - which I have not seen - but I've watched and played a bunch of TvZ - maybe I have not realized what to exploit or whats being exploited yet -
What's your explanation of the imbalance?
3rd - one match and one tournament are both way too small sample sizes to draw a significant conclusion.
For instance - how many foreign zergs did innovation beat in that tournament?
Is that truly indicative of the highest level of competition?'
Code A will tell the story I feel.
And so far says T is favored (one group) Alive beating Byul is nuts - I need to see those games.
Anybody know where to find vods of the Code A games? Looks like 2 wins for korean T's over Z - probably good content relative to the subject.
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On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
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On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
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Playing against protoss is frustrating.
I got Master Z & T, and what just give me bad mood is that in both case I need to get defense against adept pressure (and full/free scouting).
If i go fast exp, and P is going 2 gate adepts, even if i manage to kill 5/6 adept with gling surround or marine + cyclone trap, protoss is totally safe to counter with 2 random pylon in natural...
Yes my post is QQ, but i have no problem in ZvT or TvZ...
Protoss :
-Adept : t1 unit that 2 shot marines/zergling/worker, faster than any other unit with (cancelable) shade
-warp prism : fastest droper in game, only cost mineral, more hp than vac, pick up units from 15646 km, can "drop" infinite amount of unit
-fenix : talking about PvZ archon mode mainly = one guy 400 apm on 5 fenixes and your game is over. he can kill infinite unit even above spore. other is just massing adept/imo/disru and taking 50 bases. this unit is too fast and can only be punished by parasite bomb (which obviously need to and will be nerfed)
-in wol protoss must made units to defend cheeses like 2 raxes / fake hatch allin gling etc, in hots they still had to get a good simcity with overcharge to prevent this without unit. NOW : lol I make 4 pylons try to up my ramp dude
Terran :
-marauder nerf (just why?)
when I stim my unit for +50% attack speed, it last 8sec and I lose HP.
when I make twilight-thing, I pay and all my adept are perma-stim free HP. (seriously they already got enought late game unit, no need to buff the earlyGOD to be able to rekt in mid/late)
So mainy game protoss going 2 bases 7 gates adept archon.
why when I play terran I have to get so mainy unit + turret early in 2 bases cause of adept/prism/oracle
when my oponent just make pylon?
please add planetaryfortress on supply depot for 25 mana.
So mainy low apm protoss dude in gm Eu ladder 
QQ off.
now wait and see Pro tournament, but blizz dont forget if no more casual players, your game is dead.
(marinelord rampage against Kor when its 3-7 AM in korea dont count)
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If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
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EPT
