Hello, I'm Crank. I wanted to discuss with ppl in KR scene about latest Blizzard feedback post. And I think It wouldn't be bad to make short Q/A post with them for you guys. It's not all Korean's thought but it would be helpful for you guys to understand what some Korean ppl thinks about current LOTV.
What do you think about current balance? and What do you think about Adept since Blizzard won't nerf Adept for now.
Trap I think we still need take time to judge entire balance but I do think Protoss is strong against Terran because of Warp Prism + Adept. If Warp Prism + Adept is not strong like this, Terran wouldn't be weak against Protoss. I think they need to change ladder maps as soon as possible. It's not fair even in PvP. For example, in Ulrena, Ruins of seras, Protoss player who does Pylon Photon overcharge rush behind their mineral line takes always advantage. Especially Ruins of seras, it's 4 players map. Since they don't plan to nerf Adept, they really need to change ladder map pool for every match up. It would help a lot.
Taeja Terran is always weaker than other race at early time in current balance. Adept pressure is very strong but It becomes even stronger with Warp prism. Even if Protoss doesn't play Warp Prism + Adept, Protoss force Terran play defensively. I don't think it's fair. They need to fix this.
Korean scene has only 2 tournaments and they always take time to see balance in tournament and make plan to change balance. which means every 6 months they change balance. I'm so happy to imagine 6 month break since my first opponent is protoss in GSL.
HyuN Even if I'm Zerg, Protoss is way too strong against Terran. If they don't nerf Adept, first 2016 GSL, SSL would be really unfair for players. In PvZ, It was not good balanced in the past because of Lurker, but Protoss found a very smart way to play with Adept. Lurker is still strong but Protoss can be ahead in Economy so they can overcome lately.
Soulkey Adept always makes Protoss ahead. I think they need to nerf Adept's cooldown. We can't hold Adept with Zerglings but if we make Roach, Adept is so fast so we still get damaged. I also think Liberator is very strong in early TvZ. That's why even Terran pro interviewed themselves that balance is not 50:50 its T 70:30 Z.
Canata(SSL Korean Commentator) P>T, T>Z, P>=Z. All caused by Adept. Adept is so strong so there is no many right time to make Zealot. I wanna ask what kinda Terran unit can kill Adept really well. Murauder? Marine? I also think Warp prism is insane. It takes only minerals. They need to nerf Warp Prism as well like adding gas or can't take unit from far. I think they need to nerf Adept's cool down or what I said about Warp Prism.
Bomber Well, They can buff Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
The main problem is Warp Prism - it's a zero risk/cost strategy. You may as well build one because you willneed the offensive warp in later anyway.
Compare to a Medivac - it costs me gas, it carries a limited number of units, I have to fill it with units first. If I lose it early game then I am screwed. If I move out with it and Protoss attacks my base then I am screwed. When it hits the opponent I only have those units that are in it and can not reinforce. It unloads slowly. It has to be directly over the units it is picking up and thus in danger.
None of these disadvantages apply to the WP - Blizzard's design team can be retarded at times.
I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
Trap got it right though, the maps are trash.
To be fair, that's not exactly what Soulkey is saying - he is saying that you need roaches vs adepts but that roaches are too slow to deal with the shade decently.
Blizzard wont give a shit cause they need to keep holy 'map diversity' while their games never been perfect enough to remain balanced with a mixed diversified map pool.
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
Trap got it right though, the maps are trash.
I don't see why they are cherrypicked. CranK plays Random and I doubt he has some hidden agenda. Could be that he picked these guys and that they happen to dislike the current state of the Adept unit by coincidence, but be honest, who hasn't spoken against Adepts in the korean and foreign scene?
On January 10 2016 21:26 Glorfindel! wrote: This btw is like the third or fourth interview with Koreans in a row stating Adepts is totally OP in TvP?
Yes and it's coming from zergs, protoss, terrans and casters but for david everything is fine
Yeah - kind of. Feels like a balance regarding this should be on top of their list. But what do I know. Lets wait a few more months and watch it closely. For me as a Terran I just find TvP extremly boring since I am super afraid moving out of my base until I have a third secured and all air space checked before moving out.
On January 10 2016 22:00 Musicus wrote: lol, Bomber is salty
Who can blame him? He is trying to make as much money as he possible can on his job. He is playing Terran. All interviews from Korea is saying the same thing - WP and Adepts needs some kind of nerf for TvP. Still nothing happends - in the end damaging Bomber as a Terran player. I think after BL/Infestor-era, Terrans might feel the need to be a bit loud to not let history repeat itself.
On January 10 2016 22:00 Musicus wrote: lol, Bomber is salty
Who can blame him? He is trying to make as much money as he possible can on his job. He is playing Terran. All interviews from Korea is saying the same thing - WP and Adepts needs some kind of nerf for TvP. Still nothing happends - in the end damaging Bomber as a Terran player. I think after BL/Infestor-era, Terrans might feel the need to be a bit loud to not let history repeat itself.
Yeah, I can completely understand him. Still very funny to read, thanks Crank btw!
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
Trap got it right though, the maps are trash.
What is your race? and why is it protoss? what is your PvT records%? and why is it so high?
Just kidding. Yes the map are trash, but still the adept warp prism need a nerf.
Pro players should not balance the game. I know they have most experience but they dont seek a good game, they seek a fair game which is usually very predictable, easy to understand (hardcounter relations) and boring. They can give feedback but people should stay critical.
The units arent strong perse, they are strong in skilled hands and weak in others. Its very easy for blink stalkers or ravagers to take out liberators if terran positions them bad. Same is true for adepts. Bad players run into a trap with them and let them die.
Its good that protoss has a strong early game harass again. A cooldown nerf would make the unit useless. If we need a change they should make the adept weaker vs marins while making the cooldown shorter. That way its only micro and positioning which decides the outcome of the game. For the midgame and lategame you can scale adepts back to its strength through upgrades (give them more +X attack per upgrade). Or give it an ability to trade shorter cooldown for strenght in mid and lategame.
Also its fair that the warp prism stays strong. Protoss player sacrifice production for a warp prism. He is not able to produce immortals, disruptors and collossus. Terran on the other hand can produce two medivacs or two liberators at once with 1 starport and doesnt need the starport for anything else. Thats why warp prism needs to survive much longer than other units.
Also 6 month balance cycles are very good for a game like sc2. Its not a moba which is predictable due to the limited options per match. In sc2 you can always chose every unit, every tech path on different maps in every match. The game has thanks variability a lot more possible outcomes which nobody can forsee. A small change can turn the game upside down which happened a few times in the history of sc2.
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
Trap got it right though, the maps are trash.
Adapt to the maps. If the races don't have the tools to deal with possibilities out of their control, be it maps, be it compositions, be it timings then the balance is trash.
On January 10 2016 22:14 Blind Io wrote: TaeJa just came back, is only bothering with one of the two leagues and already planning a 6 month holiday. Quit playing games with my heart!
It's not that he's only bothering with one league. It's more that he would have needed a Summer of TaeJa in Winter to qualify for both.
On January 10 2016 22:25 Sinistro wrote: Bomber and Taeja are both savages. But they havea point, pretty much like everyone else, WP+adepts still is pretty strong.
I liked the fact that Trap was the only one to comment about the maps, do we know anything about the plans for the next season?
Last update was that this map pool was good enough for WCS. Fitting to have a g7 on Central Protocol for the 1st season after having a g7 on Secret Spring during WCS 2015 s1.
On January 10 2016 21:02 DeadByDawn wrote: The main problem is Warp Prism - it's a zero risk/cost strategy. You may as well build one because you willneed the offensive warp in later anyway.
Compare to a Medivac - it costs me gas, it carries a limited number of units, I have to fill it with units first. If I lose it early game then I am screwed. If I move out with it and Protoss attacks my base then I am screwed. When it hits the opponent I only have those units that are in it and can not reinforce. It unloads slowly. It has to be directly over the units it is picking up and thus in danger.
None of these disadvantages apply to the WP - Blizzard's design team can be retarded at times.
Thats a very short minded comparision. It costs you gas but it gives adavantages which a warp prism doesnt. You can always save your units if you arent a bad player. Warp prism can just save a cargo of 4. You dont need more than 8 marins in your medivac because they have the ability to deal a lot of damage. Hell you could also cary just 2 widow mines which can destroy the whole mineralline in two seconds.
If you focus on just the units yes medivac alone doesnt cut the cost compared to warp prism. But in the greater picture its worth the money just as the warp prism.
Both drops have different playstile and give you a lot of different options. Thats good design! What you want is maybe a fairer game but its a boring game which is the same as bad design.
On January 10 2016 22:15 todespolka wrote: Pro players should not balance the game. I know they have most experience but they dont seek a good game, they seek a fair game which is usually very predictable, easy to understand (hardcounter relations) and boring.
Which may or may not be because they play this game for a living for hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and get fucked when the game isn't fair.
great work Crank, hope to see similar stuff in the future...it's good to know what actual progamers are thinking.
WP costing only minerals is ridiculous, they need to change that. Adepts are obviously not balanced, everyone sees that(but DK) and Trap said probably most important thing - most maps are trash
Soooo, are there any stats that actually backs this up? Aligulac TvP was ok in December, but how is TvP doing in all the korean tournaments games that's been played in January? All the untelevised qualifications as well. What is going on in TvP on the ladder in KR GM?
On January 10 2016 22:37 Cascade wrote: Soooo, are there any stats that actually backs this up? Aligulac TvP was ok in December, but how is TvP doing in all the korean tournaments games that's been played in January? All the untelevised qualifications as well. What is going on in TvP on the ladder in KR GM?
The winrates being okay was pretty much solely based on the fact that Protoss has adepts and the fact that Korean qualifiers used pretty much only Orbital/Dusk/Ruins.
I really hope Proleague rolls around soon, I think more regular weekly matches from the Korean scene are going to be crucial in the next couple of months in balance
Honestly, just add a delay to the activation of Photon Overcharge + make it 50 energy and then buff the duration by like 50%. Then slightly increase Warp Prisms build time or add a gas cost. It isn't so much that prism adepts are so OP... it's that Protoss is 100% safe during the PvT early game. Find me a single cheese vs Protoss that can win games, or a single early pressure build that even slightly threatens P... They don't exist.
On January 10 2016 22:58 sparklyresidue wrote: I think it's interesting Canata states T over Z. Is this the general consensus now?
It is in KR. Dream said at Code A TvZ is 7-3 and TvP is like 1-9 and some pros said after the S2SL qualifier that it's getting to Z > P > T > Z.
I think that will disappear with the mapool. Haven't had maps this good for reaper builds since ever.
Yes I'm anxious for some good GSL and/or Proleague maps. Also, I can't wait for Proleague to start impacting the meta. Everything seems very free form at the moment which is exciting, as the stars require nebula to form, but I'm ready for things to be a little more figured out (in as much as that ever happens).
On January 10 2016 21:02 DeadByDawn wrote: The main problem is Warp Prism - it's a zero risk/cost strategy. You may as well build one because you willneed the offensive warp in later anyway.
Compare to a Medivac - it costs me gas, it carries a limited number of units, I have to fill it with units first. If I lose it early game then I am screwed. If I move out with it and Protoss attacks my base then I am screwed. When it hits the opponent I only have those units that are in it and can not reinforce. It unloads slowly. It has to be directly over the units it is picking up and thus in danger.
None of these disadvantages apply to the WP - Blizzard's design team can be retarded at times.
That's what Blizzard wants, powerful harassment options with no downside in order to promote gameplay that viewers like.
On January 10 2016 21:02 DeadByDawn wrote: The main problem is Warp Prism - it's a zero risk/cost strategy. You may as well build one because you willneed the offensive warp in later anyway.
Compare to a Medivac - it costs me gas, it carries a limited number of units, I have to fill it with units first. If I lose it early game then I am screwed. If I move out with it and Protoss attacks my base then I am screwed. When it hits the opponent I only have those units that are in it and can not reinforce. It unloads slowly. It has to be directly over the units it is picking up and thus in danger.
None of these disadvantages apply to the WP - Blizzard's design team can be retarded at times.
That's what Blizzard wants, powerful harassment options with no downside in order to promote gameplay that viewers like.
Except it is not. For a spectator with less understanding of the game maybe. But when I spectate I want there to be some tension in the player's choice - everything they do should have a degree of risk to it. Early WP harass in TvP has near-zero risk so it is not interesting.
Either you prepare for adepts, either you die right away when they appear. The P can just make a prism and load few adepts, while teching behind this. While you delay your tech in order to be safe, the toss can take a third. TvP is just boring to play now even at master level, you never know what's going on and just try not to take game-ending damage. You are not really playing a game, just doing the same thing all over again in order to survive then have no choice than going all in on 2 bases if the toss did just poke you and took a free third.
A solution would be, i guess, a longer cooldown on shade (for Z), i dont know what about the warp prism (for T) but make it a strategic choice with implications, and something done about the pylons-fortress to allow early game poke. Then we have the time to balance the matchup, if T needs to be nerfed in some way against P why not.
But the current state of the TvP matchup is just not fun, neither balanced.
If Blizzard is worried about over-nerfing the adept/warp prism, why not start with a small nerf? It can always be removed or increased later. Reduce the adept's damage vs light by 1. It won't affect anything except the number of shots needed to kill SCVs. There is literally no downside to this nerf. Just do it!
On January 10 2016 20:50 Bomber wrote: Well, They can burf Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Allow photon overcharge on warp prism during pylon mode (if that's not enough, also allow it during mobile mode)
Funny enough what create most problems in every expansion are random stuff that Blizz added for the sake of changing stuff, not because it's needed:
HotS: Random turbo speed buff for the medivac. This basically forced the mothership core to exist and be a hero unit to defend the early game drops. The muta hp regen also forced a phoenix range upgrade to be able to hardcounter the unit.
LotV: Reaper bombs, sieged tank drop&pickup, invincible nydus all create bs wins and one-sided boring games in TvZ. Warp prism ranged pickup was completely unneeded, I totally called the prism would be the best protoss unit (after probe and MSC) way early in the beta. Now it needs to be nerfed because well, it's too good for the cost.
On January 10 2016 20:50 Bomber wrote: Well, They can burf Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Allow photon overcharge on warp prism during pylon mode (if that's not enough, also allow it during mobile mode)
It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
Thanks Crank, it is always nice to have the perspective of people who dedicated their life to the game even if there are not always objectives, except for Canata who is a commentator. All the people who complain about zergs must be pretty disappointed.
On January 11 2016 01:41 stilt wrote: Thanks Crank, it is always nice to have the perspective of people who dedicated their life to the game even if there are not always objectives, except for Canata who is a commentator. All the people who complain about zergs must be pretty disappointed.
On January 11 2016 01:41 stilt wrote: Thanks Crank, it is always nice to have the perspective of people who dedicated their life to the game even if there are not always objectives, except for Canata who is a commentator. All the people who complain about zergs must be pretty disappointed.
Canata is KR Random masters (I think he was random GM in beta), and often takes games from progamers. It would be an understatement to call him "a commentator". Commentators would also have deeper insights to the game because they tend to be less biased, and can see every game from up above.
Can't blizzard just hire these guys for 5 hrs a piece, have them brainstorm as to the fair changes and then implement them?
Instead of waiting 6 months to change something? I seem to recall them literally stating WE WILL MAKE CHANGES AGGRESSIVELY EARLY, and here we are, "Let's wait and look a little closer..."
So irritating... do what you say you're going to do, and listen to the damn guys who play the game more than anyone else and make a living doing it. The common theme in what they say is that their personal race isn't the big deal, they understand for the game to work it HAS to be balance for ALL 3 RACES.
On January 11 2016 01:28 Salteador Neo wrote: Funny enough what create most problems in every expansion are random stuff that Blizz added for the sake of changing stuff, not because it's needed:
HotS: Random turbo speed buff for the medivac. This basically forced the mothership core to exist and be a hero unit to defend the early game drops. The muta hp regen also forced a phoenix range upgrade to be able to hardcounter the unit.
LotV: Reaper bombs, sieged tank drop&pickup, invincible nydus all create bs wins and one-sided boring games in TvZ. Warp prism ranged pickup was completely unneeded, I totally called the prism would be the best protoss unit (after probe and MSC) way early in the beta. Now it needs to be nerfed because well, it's too good for the cost.
I think the warp prism pick-up range adjustment is a neat way to diversify the different dropships for each race though. It makes the warp prism more idiosyncratic in a way that fits with protoss design themes of warping and teleportation. The problem that the warp prism has from a design point of view is that you only need one for the full effect, so the unit needs exceptional survivability in order to not be clumsy and annoying to use (i.e. if one dies your drop potential is gone). Blizzard facilitated this by giving them a very high number of hit points, but then added the pick-up range increase to allow the warp prism some more distance and security.
I think it's a case of mistaken tuning rather than a pure design flaw. In choosing the range it can't be too low because that becomes unclear in terms of differentiating the unit from its cousins, but it can't be too high because then the theoretical problems of negating risk and removing interplay of warp prism and defending units will start to arise. Furthermore, given the additional survivability the unit gained it could have done with either a hit points decrease or a cost increase.
If the pick-up range was four instead of six and its health 100/80 instead of 100/100 and its cost 200/50 instead of 200/0 the warp prism might still be perfectly viable. What I find mysterious is that Blizzard adds functionality to units and then does not compensate for it by adjusting some of the other stats or changing its cost. Increasing pick-up range is after a fairly straight-up survivability change and it can easily be argued that there should be a trade off with at least hit points.
On January 11 2016 02:08 REyeM wrote: "Terran is always weaker than other race."
-TaeJa
The way I understood that statement is that Terran is the new macro sit back race, the way Zerg was in Wings. So the more the game gets figured out the more it favours Terran, but because the game is new there's a lot of builds you need to account for and unscouted is usually bad for Terran.
But it's Taeja so I could just be mistaking. I think moreso what we get from this discussion is that David Kim's job is hard, when this is what you get, when you ask of pro players thoughts. Don't think we can get much info on the actual state of the game from this.
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
Was there not a blizz post some time ago, with the overall stat where T was favored against P? Maybe the problem with adept is that protoss is not has strong vs T in the lower league, I know that for me (in plat) tvp is by far my easiest match up. I may also be crazy and they never release that stat.
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
- Reaper granade increase cooldown (nerf) - Medivac speed is slower when heavy tank is in it (nerf)
Zerg :
- Ravager corrosive bile damage reduce (nerf) - Parasitic bomb radius smaller (nerf) - Ultralisk armor nerf slightly (nerf) - crackling speed attack reduce (nerf) - Hydralisk changed armor type from light to bionic - Hydralisk HP upgrade on hive tech (buff) - Swarm Host removed from game (nerf)
Thank you. I want David Kim job and change maps fast
Hydralisks are already biological.
Yes, but they are light. That is what makes them one of the weakest units in game. They get slaughtered by everthing
How about re-balancing the Hydralisk around a 1-supply variant that retains its 80 HP? Brood War Hydralisks were 1 supply and were at Hatchery-tech, while still having 80 HP. It was a good, all-round unit, unlike the SC2 Hydralisk which is basically an overpriced Marine
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
- Reaper granade increase cooldown (nerf) - Medivac speed is slower when heavy tank is in it (nerf)
Zerg :
- Ravager corrosive bile damage reduce (nerf) - Parasitic bomb radius smaller (nerf) - Ultralisk armor nerf slightly (nerf) - crackling speed attack reduce (nerf) - Hydralisk changed armor type from light to bionic - Hydralisk HP upgrade on hive tech (buff) - Swarm Host removed from game (nerf)
Thank you. I want David Kim job and change maps fast
Hydralisks are already biological.
Yes, but they are light. That is what makes them one of the weakest units in game. They get slaughtered by everthing
How about re-balancing the Hydralisk around a 1-supply variant that retains its 80 HP? Brood War Hydralisks were 1 supply and were at Hatchery-tech, while still having 80 HP. It was a good, all-round unit, unlike the SC2 Hydralisk which is basically an overpriced Marine
I don't think that it is far comparison to brood war. If Hydra is just 1 supply then I think hydra is overpowered.
In my honest personal opinion I think hydra should not be light armored and other zerg units nerfed so we see more Hydra play
I think that people only build hydras to eventually morph them into Lurkers. If lurkers weren't in game then nobody would ever build hydras.
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
- Reaper granade increase cooldown (nerf) - Medivac speed is slower when heavy tank is in it (nerf)
Zerg :
- Ravager corrosive bile damage reduce (nerf) - Parasitic bomb radius smaller (nerf) - Ultralisk armor nerf slightly (nerf) - crackling speed attack reduce (nerf) - Hydralisk changed armor type from light to bionic - Hydralisk HP upgrade on hive tech (buff) - Swarm Host removed from game (nerf)
Thank you. I want David Kim job and change maps fast
Hydralisks are already biological.
Yes, but they are light. That is what makes them one of the weakest units in game. They get slaughtered by everthing
How about re-balancing the Hydralisk around a 1-supply variant that retains its 80 HP? Brood War Hydralisks were 1 supply and were at Hatchery-tech, while still having 80 HP. It was a good, all-round unit, unlike the SC2 Hydralisk which is basically an overpriced Marine
I don't think that it is far comparison to brood war. If Hydra is just 1 supply then I think hydra is overpowered.
In my honest personal opinion I think hydra should not be light armored and other zerg units nerfed so we see more Hydra play
I think that people only build hydras to eventually morph them into Lurkers. If lurkers weren't in game then nobody would ever build hydras.
Hmmm, I think that a 1-supply variant wouldn't be overpowered actually, if they rebalance it around, say 10 damage against all and a slower attack speed. Hydralisks are not very strong currently, either way.
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: It is great so see korean comments on balance. They are much more in line with my view aswell
The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Once time passes and we have new maps I think balance will look a lot better. I remember when in GSL the very first Terran was super overpowered, but Fruitdealer still managed to win it all because he was ahead of his time
- Reaper granade increase cooldown (nerf) - Medivac speed is slower when heavy tank is in it (nerf)
Zerg :
- Ravager corrosive bile damage reduce (nerf) - Parasitic bomb radius smaller (nerf) - Ultralisk armor nerf slightly (nerf) - crackling speed attack reduce (nerf) - Hydralisk changed armor type from light to bionic - Hydralisk HP upgrade on hive tech (buff) - Swarm Host removed from game (nerf)
Thank you. I want David Kim job and change maps fast
Hydralisks are already biological.
Yes, but they are light. That is what makes them one of the weakest units in game. They get slaughtered by everthing
How about re-balancing the Hydralisk around a 1-supply variant that retains its 80 HP? Brood War Hydralisks were 1 supply and were at Hatchery-tech, while still having 80 HP. It was a good, all-round unit, unlike the SC2 Hydralisk which is basically an overpriced Marine
I don't think that it is far comparison to brood war. If Hydra is just 1 supply then I think hydra is overpowered.
In my honest personal opinion I think hydra should not be light armored and other zerg units nerfed so we see more Hydra play
I think that people only build hydras to eventually morph them into Lurkers. If lurkers weren't in game then nobody would ever build hydras.
He meant rebalancing around 1 supply, so of course the other stats would've to be adjusted. But we are way past big changes like this I think. I always wanted Hydra to be hatch tech and Ravagers to be lair tech. It won't happen.
I have to say I have a little bit of sad eye of current game when I look at units. To think that is going to be like this forever. No new units, no major changes because it is last Addon
Maybe if we lucky they dedice to do major redesign in future
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
Don't agree with this at least for EU Snute/Nerchio/Serral/Firecake Marinelord/Dayshi/Uthermal/Bunny Lilbow/Pitdrogo/Showtime/Mana
Looks pretty equal to me.
But I think when european zergs would play versus korean protoss then the zergs would lose.
Hmmm, I think that a 1-supply variant wouldn't be overpowered actually, if they rebalance it around, say 10 damage against all and a slower attack speed. Hydralisks are not very strong currently, either way.
WP is a great unit with no drawbacks: low cost, high HP, fast, and the ranged pickup shields it from defenses; that pickup range is insane, really dunno what they were thinking when they decided that.. Nerfing the Adept wouldn't fix much, WP can make almost any unit combo look OP if you put a bit of work into it.
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
Don't agree with this at least for EU Snute/Nerchio/Serral/Firecake Marinelord/Dayshi/Uthermal/Bunny Lilbow/Pitdrogo/Showtime/Mana
On January 11 2016 01:33 A_needle_jog wrote: The biggest problem of skewed balance view on Teamliquid is that maps are really bad and the best players outside korea are all zerg by far. Snute, Scarlett, Nerchio, FireCake etc.
When teamliquid watches many tournaments with europeans then they always see zerg win because all good players in europe are zerg. (except for MarineLord).
Don't agree with this at least for EU Snute/Nerchio/Serral/Firecake Marinelord/Dayshi/Uthermal/Bunny Lilbow/Pitdrogo/Showtime/Mana
On January 11 2016 03:40 waiting2Bbanned wrote: WP is a great unit with no drawbacks: low cost, high HP, fast, and the ranged pickup shields it from defenses; that pickup range is insane, really dunno what they were thinking when they decided that.. Nerfing the Adept wouldn't fix much, WP can make almost any unit combo look OP if you put a bit of work into it.
Warp prism is killed really fast from static defenses and even if it's "low cost" you have to micro it with units to make it effective. Doing elevetor trick requires high skill expecially when you have to macro behind that.
I see no nerf to WP that would solve "terrans problems" without imbalance pvz too, where protoss already are struggling. Nerfing adepts would bring down PvZ winrate be cause there will be no way to harass them in early, also PvT will become highly terran favored since protoss lack of splash damage and tanky units.
I really don't see the point in all these "proes" complaining about protoss. In tournaments most qualified players are zergs, terran and zergs won much more than protoss, still protoss is race that needs nerfs...
On January 10 2016 21:05 myRZeth wrote: I can't take those cherrypicked comments serious. Taeja has always been a notorious whiner, Soulkey is complaining about having to build a unit other than zerglings for the first 5 minutes, and Hyun is talking about a matchup he doesn't even play.
Trap got it right though, the maps are trash.
It's pretty obvious Adept/warp prism needs a nerf immediately. Are you retarded or do you just not play Terran?
Thanks Crank. I do think WP + adept needs a quick fix. I disagree with Blizzard that it's getting figured out in any way, and honestly the room for improvement is even bigger for P players than for T players (more refined timings, timing the shades perfectly, etc). The armored tag was a fair idea I think, and the warp prism does need to cost gas early game, maybe have an upgrade that takes the gas cost away because it's absolutely pivotal in lategame.
On January 11 2016 03:40 waiting2Bbanned wrote: WP is a great unit with no drawbacks: low cost, high HP, fast, and the ranged pickup shields it from defenses; that pickup range is insane, really dunno what they were thinking when they decided that.. Nerfing the Adept wouldn't fix much, WP can make almost any unit combo look OP if you put a bit of work into it.
Warp prism is killed really fast from static defenses and even if it's "low cost" you have to micro it with units to make it effective. Doing elevetor trick requires high skill expecially when you have to macro behind that.
The Warp Prism is 33% stronger than a medivac, and with the range of its warpin field/pickup it is far easier to get around static defense.
On January 11 2016 04:54 travis wrote: I am going to laugh if results for the next couple months end up showing nothing like what the pros are complaining about.
That would not always contradict balance whines if Z or T wins everything.
Even if balance could give a base advantage to P, enough skill difference can still make up for the imbalance. Just as a GM T won't start loosing to plat/dia P just because something is overpowered.
If there is a T champ this year, it will just mean that guy is insanely good, not that P is not superior to T.
On January 11 2016 03:40 waiting2Bbanned wrote: WP is a great unit with no drawbacks: low cost, high HP, fast, and the ranged pickup shields it from defenses; that pickup range is insane, really dunno what they were thinking when they decided that.. Nerfing the Adept wouldn't fix much, WP can make almost any unit combo look OP if you put a bit of work into it.
Warp prism is killed really fast from static defenses and even if it's "low cost" you have to micro it with units to make it effective. Doing elevetor trick requires high skill expecially when you have to macro behind that.
I see no nerf to WP that would solve "terrans problems" without imbalance pvz too, where protoss already are struggling. Nerfing adepts would bring down PvZ winrate be cause there will be no way to harass them in early, also PvT will become highly terran favored since protoss lack of splash damage and tanky units.
I really don't see the point in all these "proes" complaining about protoss. In tournaments most qualified players are zergs, terran and zergs won much more than protoss, still protoss is race that needs nerfs...
I think the real only problem is map pool.
You don't even have to elevator trick. Just warping them in is way faster. Just drop 4 adepts, use them to tank while you open the WP umbrella (don't worry, they will), and just call in 7 more. The added fact that the warp prism can pick up units from a range is just abominable as well. To entirely cover a base, Terran needs to invest in around 5-6 turrets, which is fine if you are a protoss, because you can just add a third and macro on. WP/ Adept is by no means an all in, which makes it even more difficult to deal with. The "Pros" complain about protoss because they are difficult to deal with. Don't worry, statistics will show.
On January 11 2016 02:05 J. Corsair wrote: Can't blizzard just hire these guys for 5 hrs a piece, have them brainstorm as to the fair changes and then implement them?
Instead of waiting 6 months to change something? I seem to recall them literally stating WE WILL MAKE CHANGES AGGRESSIVELY EARLY, and here we are, "Let's wait and look a little closer..."
So irritating... do what you say you're going to do, and listen to the damn guys who play the game more than anyone else and make a living doing it. The common theme in what they say is that their personal race isn't the big deal, they understand for the game to work it HAS to be balance for ALL 3 RACES.
There's a huge conflict of interest there since this is their profession. You need someone impartial to do balance, someone who has access to all the data so they can spot trends and the like. They need to be impartial also because they need to consider the overall health of the game like watchability, "funness" factor, etc.
I'm much less concerned about current win rates and balance (which is IMO all out of wack due to the terrible map pool) than I am about the qualitative factors like watchability, build diversity, etc. For example the proposed change to PO is much more interesting to me as it opens up more aggressive options against Protoss which tackles some of these qualitative factors, but changing Adept to armored is kind of a boring change.
On January 11 2016 03:40 waiting2Bbanned wrote: WP is a great unit with no drawbacks: low cost, high HP, fast, and the ranged pickup shields it from defenses; that pickup range is insane, really dunno what they were thinking when they decided that.. Nerfing the Adept wouldn't fix much, WP can make almost any unit combo look OP if you put a bit of work into it.
Warp prism is killed really fast from static defenses and even if it's "low cost" you have to micro it with units to make it effective. Doing elevetor trick requires high skill expecially when you have to macro behind that.
Ugh.. So the solution is build 10 turrets to defend your entire main and natural (1000 minerals)? Protoss just sees the defense, flies home with Warp Prism and takes 3rd and 4th base whil you're stuck building turrets and bunkers with no return on investment.
What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
The big problem is P can harass whithout taking any risk at all.
Let them the ability to micro, but punish bad micro :
The shade of adept can't be cancelled anymore so P must use it really wisely and the other can predict where it goes.
Lower the health of WP. It's super easy to "micro" with such a bulky mobile unit ! Put HP at 50-50 or 75-75, and a WM can OS it, while P much be really cautious at using it.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
TvP was terran favored in the blink all in era (post january) acordding to that graph :D Maybe it's just bullshit graph?
On January 11 2016 04:54 travis wrote: I am going to laugh if results for the next couple months end up showing nothing like what the pros are complaining about.
They may or may not. I don't think it's healthy to leave blatantly bad/broken units and poorly balanced units in the game as they are just becasue winrates are 50/50 even if the match-up is absolutely terrible.
I mean broodlord/infestor was 50/50 and immortal sentry pvz 50/50 winrates at some points but those games were some of the worse ever produced in the history of SC2.
Looks like the Zerg train has shifted quite a bit.
Funny to watch the narrative shift - not so much here (except in the balance forum populated by a lot of terran task force whiners), but on reddit and bnet it was constant moaning about how overpowered Zerg is
But it mirrors my experiences on the ladder - ravager timing was great against terran until they started using early liberator builds which a) hard counter ravager builds w/ tank and banshee but b) are completely safe to any early aggression.
Protoss is similar. Lurkers annihilate Protoss until they figure out new timings, disruptor play, and openings and now it's really difficult to scout, react, and defend against zealot + immortal timing or mass adept + void ray. Protoss takes 3rd behind timing and early aggression is completely shut down by how obscene PO is right now
On January 11 2016 04:54 travis wrote: I am going to laugh if results for the next couple months end up showing nothing like what the pros are complaining about.
They may or may not. I don't think it's healthy to leave blatantly bad/broken units and poorly balanced units in the game as they are just becasue winrates are 50/50 even if the match-up is absolutely terrible.
I mean broodlord/infestor was 50/50 and immortal sentry pvz 50/50 winrates at some points but those games were some of the worse ever produced in the history of SC2.
The players in the OP are not complaining about design, they are saying that protoss is a broken(overpowered) race. So unless protoss just coincidentally has worse pros playing for it, which history says it clearly doesn't, then the statistics should back that up. If statistics repeatedly do not back that up, then the players are probably biased and wrong based on preconceived notions of how the game should be designed.
That's not to say that it isn't bad design. There probably are balance and design issues. But it's straight up disrespectful to suggest that a race is overpowered while it's top pros lose over and over.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
That is blatantly not true. Anyone who lived through GOM TvT would know that. It went from bad to worse peaking at half of the players in the GSL being Terran in August 2011. Statistics do not always go toward 50%. PvZ was bad in November, why didn't it trend toward 50%? It actually trended away from that... you're not even making sense.
That and the fact there wasn't even close to a 50% win rate during the BL-Infestor era. Terran had between a 45% winrate and a 42% win rate versus Zerg during that time.
Do any of the koreans interviewed actually play protoss?
I dont think many people realize how screwed protoss is after the adept and WP gets nerfed. The sub 50% win is WITH an overpowered unit at the moment.
PvT, Protoss got the disruptor, lost the collosus - and is now playing against an Air unit that 2 shots everything. Protoss doesnt have good anti air except from the stargate (which again is hardcountered by the mineral unit - marine) or blink stalkers - which are bad against everything else. Add in the fact that mules are still giving terrans a significant advantage over protoss in terms of mineral income on 3-4 bases.
Vs zerg, the option of mutalisks, 3/3 melee Cracklings / ultras, or a solid range attack build is extremely hard to counter properly - and now (compared to Hots) gives Zerg the edge in the lategame.
To sum it up, Protoss has always had the some of the biggest drawbacks in economy / production / mobility (beaten only by mech) - in turn they had the best deathball. Take the deathball and its simply underpowered.
On January 11 2016 06:32 weikor wrote: Do any of the koreans interviewed actually play protoss?
I dont think many people realize how screwed protoss is after the adept and WP gets nerfed. The sub 50% win is WITH an overpowered unit at the moment.
PvT, Protoss got the disruptor, lost the collosus - and is now playing against an Air unit that 2 shots everything. Protoss doesnt have good anti air except from the stargate (which again is hardcountered by the mineral unit - marine) or blink stalkers - which are bad against everything else. Add in the fact that mules are still giving terrans a significant advantage over protoss in terms of mineral income on 3-4 bases.
Vs zerg, the option of mutalisks, 3/3 melee Cracklings / ultras, or a solid range attack build is extremely hard to counter properly - and now (compared to Hots) gives Zerg the edge in the lategame.
To sum it up, Protoss has always had the some of the biggest drawbacks in economy / production / mobility (beaten only by mech) - in turn they had the best deathball. Take the deathball and its simply underpowered.
Except for Trap, he interviewed a bunch of the other races and asked specifically about Adepts. Obviously you're going to get those answers.
This is a very loaded interview, and shouldn't be taken for anything other than that. These interviews are certainly not stronger evidence than win rates of balance problems.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate was 50% and the game was balanced, when before it wasn't. Now the game design decisions that allowed for Broodlord Infestor were piss poor, but that is an entirely different discussion than balance winrates.
Terran went a whole year massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. Check it:
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
TvZ I think is pretty close in balance - with T having a slight adv in the midgame as per standard sc2 but with the ultimate late game composition heavily skewed toward Z - I think Ultras could be a tad strong but only once the Z is so big that they have corrupt/bl/ultra to support. Not sure how blizz could fix this without messing up the balance one way or the other.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1.
That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse.
So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs.
On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL@this -
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1.
That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse.
So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs.
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand.
You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you.
This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1.
That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse.
So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs.
On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL@this -
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand.
You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you.
This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense.
I'll do what I want. Laugh at me again if you wish, that is the mature thing to do, right? Then get mad when I call you out. Mature things to do. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
Oh, solid defense is the best way to play huh? Damn, someone should have told MC, Puma, Parting, Maru, ect... Do you give lessons?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
But you took his quote out of context. Read it again, he never said T wasn't underrepresented in 2014.
He said they didn't nerf BL/Infestor in Korea because Terran was the best represented race except for the very last season.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes.
I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1.
That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse.
So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs.
On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote:
LOL@this -
Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand.
You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you.
This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense.
I'll do what I want. Laugh at me again if you wish, that is the mature thing to do, right? Then get mad when I call you out. Mature things to do. Get out of the kitchen if you can't take the heat.
Oh, solid defense is the best way to play huh? Damn, someone should have told MC, Puma, Parting, Maru, ect... Do you give lessons?
LOL now you are so mad you aren't even reading..
My point was that post all the agiulac stats you want about how of the 6000000 ladder games Protoss is winning less than 50% - that isn't remotely relevant to the discussion - unless you think that bronze level players are exploiting imbalance at the same rate of return as professionals are - that is not a "solid defense". ^^
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point.
Aligulac isn't based on ladder games. It is based on the games of the best players. That is why there is only 1021 TvZ games in Decembers statistics. If they took all ladder games from all leagues into account, it'd be many times that. Batting one thousand today.
So do you think Bronze level players exploit imbalance better or worse than professionals? I'm quite curious about that.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point.
i did not even respond to that comment... I responded to Wire and Glorfindel!'s post that balance always goes to 50-50 and that terran was underrepresented througout bl/inf.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh -
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way.
Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?"
Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014?
2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013.
This was in reference to the statement that the last season of WOL was the only time T was underrepresented in code S - not to BL/infestor
read the discussion. the timeframe was set to BL/Infestor era by the posts I was responding to.
Yeah I did - but his previous comment that you responded to was that "Terran always won more than 50% - and as such - Terran can't psychologically understand imbalance - bc they only ever were favored..." So I don't think you were agreeing with him - but the way it came out it was reinforcing an idiotic point.
i did not even respond to that comment... I responded to Wire and Glorfindel!'s post that balance always goes to 50-50 and that terran was underrepresented througout bl/inf.
My mistake - the way the notes lined up I assumed you did.
But to your original point - you recall the evolution of infestor / BL right?
The queen buff enabled it - and it was a couple of seasons of code S before Z figured out they could greed out off 3 base right to Bl/infestor and as soon as they did it was clearly imbalanced - and then HOTS came out soon after
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh -
Ahh, so you watched one TvZ match where a Zerg player won and conclude the matchup is fine? Because it is snowing outside right now, global warming must not be real also huh?
In Nationwars III, Terran won 72% of their games against Zerg. Terran had a 71% winrate in GPL 2015 Season 3, and 61.5% GSL preseason. But the one game you watched definitely trumps that. I like you.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Terran is crapping all over Zerg? I'm pretty sure I watched a foreign zerg (snute) absolutely wreck a top korean terran last night (Gumiho) - I didn't watch the Marinelord games but I know he did win a bunch too.. I dont think Tvz is too bad of all the matchups tbh -
Ahh, so you watched one TvZ match where a Zerg player won and conclude the matchup is fine? Because it is snowing outside right now, global warming must not be real also huh?
In Nationwars III, Terran won 72% of their games against Zerg. Terran had a 71% winrate in GPL 2015 Season 3, and 61.5% GSL preseason. But the one game you watched definitely trumps that. I like you.
2nd - I don't know if tvz is fine - I just said I don't think it's really favored for either side. I mentioned the marinelord games - which I have not seen - but I've watched and played a bunch of TvZ - maybe I have not realized what to exploit or whats being exploited yet - What's your explanation of the imbalance?
3rd - one match and one tournament are both way too small sample sizes to draw a significant conclusion. For instance - how many foreign zergs did innovation beat in that tournament? Is that truly indicative of the highest level of competition?'
Code A will tell the story I feel. And so far says T is favored (one group) Alive beating Byul is nuts - I need to see those games.
Anybody know where to find vods of the Code A games? Looks like 2 wins for korean T's over Z - probably good content relative to the subject.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
I got Master Z & T, and what just give me bad mood is that in both case I need to get defense against adept pressure (and full/free scouting). If i go fast exp, and P is going 2 gate adepts, even if i manage to kill 5/6 adept with gling surround or marine + cyclone trap, protoss is totally safe to counter with 2 random pylon in natural...
Yes my post is QQ, but i have no problem in ZvT or TvZ...
Protoss : -Adept : t1 unit that 2 shot marines/zergling/worker, faster than any other unit with (cancelable) shade -warp prism : fastest droper in game, only cost mineral, more hp than vac, pick up units from 15646 km, can "drop" infinite amount of unit -fenix : talking about PvZ archon mode mainly = one guy 400 apm on 5 fenixes and your game is over. he can kill infinite unit even above spore. other is just massing adept/imo/disru and taking 50 bases. this unit is too fast and can only be punished by parasite bomb (which obviously need to and will be nerfed) -in wol protoss must made units to defend cheeses like 2 raxes / fake hatch allin gling etc, in hots they still had to get a good simcity with overcharge to prevent this without unit. NOW : lol I make 4 pylons try to up my ramp dude
Terran : -marauder nerf (just why?)
when I stim my unit for +50% attack speed, it last 8sec and I lose HP. when I make twilight-thing, I pay and all my adept are perma-stim free HP. (seriously they already got enought late game unit, no need to buff the earlyGOD to be able to rekt in mid/late) So mainy game protoss going 2 bases 7 gates adept archon.
why when I play terran I have to get so mainy unit + turret early in 2 bases cause of adept/prism/oracle when my oponent just make pylon? please add planetaryfortress on supply depot for 25 mana.
So mainy low apm protoss dude in gm Eu ladder
QQ off.
now wait and see Pro tournament, but blizz dont forget if no more casual players, your game is dead.
(marinelord rampage against Kor when its 3-7 AM in korea dont count)
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
He's complaining about roach/ravager because it beats a silly 'pure mech' style build where terran players decide to limit themselves to specific unit comps at the start of the game
Koreans don't have issues with roach ravager because they play with all units and don't make up comps and demand Blizzard make them viable
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
He's complaining about roach/ravager because it beats a silly 'pure mech' style build where terran players decide to limit themselves to specific unit comps at the start of the game
Koreans don't have issues with roach ravager because they play with all units and don't make up comps and demand Blizzard make them viable
Atleast it's now the ravager and not the viper that causes the problem!
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
yes like techlab for liberator. for ultra if they revert marau do only 1 attack not 2 thats ok imo but hiting at 10 only on ultra is unplayable.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators.
Probably because it's hard to get there?
Because BC Ghost gets feedbacked in 2 seconds and the remaining lumps of metal are pulverized by the tempests.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
You win the thread! Add Vipers on for good measure.
I agree the warp prism is too op and only costs minerals. The WP and Adept just need some work and then will be nice to see where the balance is at. still wonder whats goin to happen with the ultra.
On January 10 2016 22:15 todespolka wrote: Pro players should not balance the game. I know they have most experience but they dont seek a good game, they seek a fair game which is usually very predictable, easy to understand (hardcounter relations) and boring. They can give feedback but people should stay critical.
The units arent strong perse, they are strong in skilled hands and weak in others. Its very easy for blink stalkers or ravagers to take out liberators if terran positions them bad. Same is true for adepts. Bad players run into a trap with them and let them die.
Its good that protoss has a strong early game harass again. A cooldown nerf would make the unit useless. If we need a change they should make the adept weaker vs marins while making the cooldown shorter. That way its only micro and positioning which decides the outcome of the game. For the midgame and lategame you can scale adepts back to its strength through upgrades (give them more +X attack per upgrade). Or give it an ability to trade shorter cooldown for strenght in mid and lategame.
Also its fair that the warp prism stays strong. Protoss player sacrifice production for a warp prism. He is not able to produce immortals, disruptors and collossus. Terran on the other hand can produce two medivacs or two liberators at once with 1 starport and doesnt need the starport for anything else. Thats why warp prism needs to survive much longer than other units.
Also 6 month balance cycles are very good for a game like sc2. Its not a moba which is predictable due to the limited options per match. In sc2 you can always chose every unit, every tech path on different maps in every match. The game has thanks variability a lot more possible outcomes which nobody can forsee. A small change can turn the game upside down which happened a few times in the history of sc2.
Oh no, I hate these kinds of posts. These are the players trying to defend going from platinum to masters with an 80% w/l ratio vs Terran off of one build. Similar to the player that got GM with only doing 4-gate in WoL. Please stop talking.
On January 11 2016 10:16 looknohands119 wrote: What I took from this is that the community can't agree on what's wrong or even that anything is wrong much less on what the solution might be.
Well, Protosses say it's fine and don't want anything to change, everybody argues which race is the weakest.
No surprises here to see Terran and Zerg players complaining about Adepts. Props to Bomber for being such a badass and not crying over 'imba' unlike the others.
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
yeah that usually happens when you turtle on 3-4 bases the whole game and never attack
On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote: If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
yeah that usually happens when you turtle on 3-4 bases the whole game and never attack
I think the part to keep of the Adept would be the damage vs light, killing workers in two shots is important. Maybe make it so the shade cant be cancelled past a certain time(like haflway?) or that shade can't be cancelled until research from twilight?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it.
Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
You should watch how Korean's play TvZ and win not only in mid game, but also late game. Rather then being so stubborn/ignorant/naive, how about you actually watch how good Terran's play and *gasp* take that into your playstyle? Your turtle into dying/qq isn't the way to play and never has been.
If Blizzard actually took balance complaints from you seriously, Terran would be so overpowered it would be ridiculous (of course you'd say it was balanced or still needs buffs). Get off your high horse and stop thinking you are this amazing player when you really aren't and never have been. Every time you lose in tvz, it's not because of balance it's because of how poorly you play it and you refuse to admit it. This has always been your problem and why you will never, ever become a top player.
On that note, thanks Crank. I would have liked some more Q/A, but interesting to see the thought process in Korea .
I don't follow SC2 that much anymore since all of my favorite players are basically gone. I'm surprised Taeja is still playing since I thought 2015 would be his last year. Did his military service not start yet?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it.
Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
The only reason every mech player goes to 200/200 before moving out is because Blizzard's favorite pastime is nerfing mech, with as result that moving out before you are at 200/200 is suicidal (generally, of course if the zerg is pure teching to BLs asap and only has lings you don't wait until the BLs are done). Even at 200/200 it is generally a bad idea to move out if you actually want to win.
On January 11 2016 16:36 astray71 wrote: I don't follow SC2 that much anymore since all of my favorite players are basically gone. I'm surprised Taeja is still playing since I thought 2015 would be his last year. Did his military service not start yet?
Not yet, just waiting for it to start I believe. He's not doing much anymore though.
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it.
Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
The only reason every mech player goes to 200/200 before moving out is because Blizzard's favorite pastime is nerfing mech, with as result that moving out before you are at 200/200 is suicidal (generally, of course if the zerg is pure teching to BLs asap and only has lings you don't wait until the BLs are done). Even at 200/200 it is generally a bad idea to move out if you actually want to win.
I don't think he cares. If you play mech you are stupid, don't take the game seriously or you found a way to make it work. In either case you have no right to complain about TvZ.
Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit. TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease.
On January 11 2016 19:40 Poopi wrote: Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit. TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease.
TvZ certainly was not 50/50 at that point. There is a reason why we used to say GomTvT. Whether Blizzard did a good job of nerfing Terran and bunker afterwards is another matter. :p
On the topic itself, I would take anything that anyone who makes a living off playing with a grain of salt. They will obviously whine to win. There is no fairness or greater principles in that (otherwise where were their principles then when they decided to play WCS/foreign tourneys? Sure they are more skilled but nobody can deny either that foreigners were ever given the same chances to get better). They just want to win and they are in their right to think so.
Also out of curiosity I'd like to know the views of players from bigger teams (SKT, KT mainly).
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
What about reducing the health of WP, so queens/cyclone can kill it easier. Also they should remove pick up range from gateway units but still let it be viable for robotics units.
On January 11 2016 19:40 Poopi wrote: Okay so I see a lot of people spilling bullshit. TvZ was 50-50 then they buffed Z (or nerfed T or both dont remember exactly) and BL/infestor happened and EU zergs were able to trash koreans terrans with ease.
TvZ certainly was not 50/50 at that point. There is a reason why we used to say GomTvT. Whether Blizzard did a good job of nerfing Terran and bunker afterwards is another matter. :p
On the topic itself, I would take anything that anyone who makes a living off playing with a grain of salt. They will obviously whine to win. There is no fairness or greater principles in that (otherwise where were their principles then when they decided to play WCS/foreign tourneys? Sure they are more skilled but nobody can deny either that foreigners were ever given the same chances to get better). They just want to win and they are in their right to think so.
Also out of curiosity I'd like to know the views of players from bigger teams (SKT, KT mainly).
Right before b/l TvZ was at 50-50. There were numerous patches and GomTvT lasted longer because it was hard to drop from code S once you were in but TvZ with a big sample size was indeed at 50-50, Blizzard just likes to tweak things for their own amusement.
OMG Adept is broken. Who would have guessed? In all honestly sometimes i actually tune into that maximusbrown streamer just to see him abuse the fuck out of them to get free wins that he doesent deserve.
What I don't get with the adept is the need for them to 2-shot workers. I mean adepts were supposed to be a new core unit of the protoss army, allowing them to fight MMM in low supply situations. Why give them so much "harass utility" ? With their shade and ability to 2-shot workers, they just turned into another page of the "protoss bullshit Bible"...
Surprised to see just how frustrated these guys are by Adepts. Maybe it's just because I don't have the multitasking to take true advantage of the unit, but they don't seem THAT OP to me. The very highest levels of Korean competition are a completely different world from mine, though.
I'm also worried about what Protoss is going to be like if both Photon Overcharge and Adept/WP get a nerf. Protoss is honestly pretty weak outside of those key advantages, and Blizz has to be REALLY careful with what they nerf there if they want to keep the pendulum from swinging way too far to the opposite side.
they should do little changes at first to see how stuff would turn out and not major changes like over-nerfing some units. I think make Warp Prism costs gas and PO cost more energy (a number between 25-50) and add more cool down to Adepts should be good enough
Pros complaining about the state of a game that gives them a source of income. Nothing new. And people will continue telling themselves balance at the pro level has any impact on their master league games.
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
very intelligent post.
It's exaggerated way too hard but there is some truth at the start. When you see TaeJa say it's not fair that terrans don't get to be on the map aggressively... Of course it's fair. You can't have the advantage in early-midgame AND the advantage in tech at the same time, that goes without saying. The last time it happened, it was called the blink era. I hear that wasn't a great time. And on top of that, you don't think it's fair a race has to defend? Oh, I'm really really sorry about that, I'll make sure to remember that the next time I play a race that needs to either all-in or be defensive for five years, and everyone on the ladder tells me that I'm trash for doing it because it's so easy.
I'd love to see Blizzard nerf PO & adept & WP, then force fucked by whole Zerg & Terran arsenal.I wonder, if Bomber'd shit salt after that.
What I understand from progames and streams, toss has literally zero early game presence(offense) besides adept+WP. Sentries are weaker, forward warpins are weaker(pylon+gateway), it looks even worse than Hots.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
Koreans still play melee/muta a lot. Also which Korean Terrans said that?
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
Koreans still play melee/muta a lot. Also which Korean Terrans said that?
After the SSL qualifiers most said TvZ was okay, Dream said TvZ is 70-30 in T favour on Friday after his match vs HyuN.
On January 11 2016 16:26 blade55555 wrote: You should watch how Korean's play TvZ and win not only in mid game, but also late game. Rather then being so stubborn/ignorant/naive, how about you actually watch how good Terran's play and *gasp* take that into your playstyle? Your turtle into dying/qq isn't the way to play and never has been.
The Korean TvZs I've been watching have been terrans basically all in-ing before late game happens. Heck, in OSC byun scouted ultras and just left the game twice. It may overall be balanced, but it's the same sort of idea behind immortal/sentry or die to broodlord/infestor. If you were to let zerg consistently get there like the queen range buff did in wings, we'd be in trouble. It doesn't even need to be a buff, just a meta shift.
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: You have to go Ling/Muta against very good terran or they gonna exploit your immobility
Roach Ravager are not bad, but 4 medivac drop at each base is better haha
Ya I tend to agree with muta/ling being superior as a harass deterrent but snute has been showing a very strong roach rav infestor mid/late game and I like. We'll see how it holds up at the highest level.
Well Terrans should feel lucky that Protoss hasn't figured out that the Warp Prism is not a MsC and that you can get more then one. Prism range pick up and Shields make the Prism stand on Medivac level of forgiving Imo when it comes to microing a drop. And currently the prism basically reads: "give defensive blink to any unit", so its also nice in a fight. Atleast my cost efficiency went pretty up with it.
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
I get your sentiment, but the comparison between the warp prism and medivac is problematic.
Warp prisms and medivacs have the same storage capacity (8), it's just that Protoss players only build 1 in the current meta. Another reason you can't pickup the "whole army" is due to its distinct advantage: you can warp in units wherever you'd like! And if you warp in units, you might exceed the cargo capacity, yes...And yes, it immobilizes itself to allow for such a powerful ability. Strange that was somehow twisted into an overall disadvantage...
I mean, hell, you can send an empty warp prism to an enemy base and just build the units you'd like to harass with when you arrive.
Regarding the "only 1 location" comment, isn't that up to the player...? You can build more than one warp prism you know...or you can send adept shades into one location for harass, and drop/warp-in another location simultaneously.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
Yes but that does mean that Taeja could not have had problems playing with Z or P.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
You'd be pissed off too every time you won a tournament and David Kim uses your victory as an excuse to not nerf BL/infestor or blink era or Mass Mutas another 3 months.
On January 12 2016 04:21 parkufarku wrote: Bomber being a badass and Taeja always taking the weak way out by crying about Terran every chance he gets SMH
Taeja wouldn't have wrist issues if he had played Zerg or Protoss, so I don't blame him for occasionally venting.
To be honest you have no way of knowing that.
There is a historical precedent of Terran being stressful for the wrist, hand, and forearm.
Yes but that does mean that Taeja could not have had problems playing with Z or P.
Sure that's true. I'm just talking historical precedent of Terran players.
Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke.
Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent.
makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT).
No, don't believe that garbage.
Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary.
But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating.
Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it:
The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units
WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ
Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs
Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game.
Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech.
Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm.
It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead.
Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo.
It's funny how wrong you are. There is a reason Korean Terran's and Zergs think T > Z right now. Believe it or not if you actually learned how to play TvZ rather then turtling all game and then losing, you might realize it.
Turtling with mech is a bad style, stop doing it. It will never be viable because nobody wants to wait until a Terran gets 200/200 before moving out.
The only reason every mech player goes to 200/200 before moving out is because Blizzard's favorite pastime is nerfing mech, with as result that moving out before you are at 200/200 is suicidal (generally, of course if the zerg is pure teching to BLs asap and only has lings you don't wait until the BLs are done). Even at 200/200 it is generally a bad idea to move out if you actually want to win.
I don't think he cares. If you play mech you are stupid, don't take the game seriously or you found a way to make it work. In either case you have no right to complain about TvZ.
All factory units see use. Worst case scenario you need 4 upgrades to support a bio + factory unit army. That's not that much different than zerg needing air upgrades + ground upgrades. Protoss has 3 ground upgrades and so does Zerg.
This notion that Terran players should be able to make factory only units because of silly crap they make up like "the upgrades are spread out!" is pure nonsense.
On January 11 2016 12:38 MoonyD wrote: No surprises here to see Terran and Zerg players complaining about Adepts. Props to Bomber for being such a badass and not crying over 'imba' unlike the others.
you are either misunderstanding the sarcasm, or misplacing your own.
as for the adepts, have someone experienced with the build to go into a custom lobby with you, as a terran player. even if the player across several games only builds adept pressure half the time, it's enough to force you to make an early cyclone nearly every game.
if you've never played against someone who's good with it, you'll not know how much stress it puts on you.
On January 12 2016 05:32 Merkmerk wrote: All factory units see use. Worst case scenario you need 4 upgrades to support a bio + factory unit army. That's not that much different than zerg needing air upgrades + ground upgrades. Protoss has 3 ground upgrades and so does Zerg.
This notion that Terran players should be able to make factory only units because of silly crap they make up like "the upgrades are spread out!" is pure nonsense.
Not this again...
What's pure nonsense is the inability of people to recognize that this a clear example that Terran simply isn't symmetrical to the other races, and it's only in a disadvantaged way. One has to consider the average length of LOTV matches, the costs, and the tech involved. Terran must obtain a tier 3 tech building, the Armory, to start mech upgrades. Protoss and Zerg require a Tier 1 building.
Additionally, if each race wanted to get their ground units fully upgraded in a timely manner, consider the initial investment involved:
Zerg: three drones + three evolution chambers = 375/0 + opportunity cost of three larvae Protoss: three forges: 450/0 Terran: two engineering bays + two armories = 550/200 + cost of lost mining time for each worker for the entire duration of construction
Given the short and harass-heavy nature of LOTV matches, long term investments must be made more cautiously, and higher initial investment costs do, indeed, take their toll.
If Blizzard doesn't want factory play to be a separate entity from bio, the upgrades need to be better distributed (while still maintaining 5 total upgrades like the other races) to encourage biomech compositions. I'd rather see one upgrade shared universally across ground units instead of shared between factory and starport, personally. Blizzard doesn't seem to like where factory/starport compositions lead in HOTS anyway and made changes to discourage it.
But of course, people will continue to belittle these differences as if it's nothing, because if you don't play Terran, it's not your problem. And if it's not your problem, it's easy to dismiss it.
On January 12 2016 05:32 Merkmerk wrote: All factory units see use. Worst case scenario you need 4 upgrades to support a bio + factory unit army. That's not that much different than zerg needing air upgrades + ground upgrades. Protoss has 3 ground upgrades and so does Zerg.
This notion that Terran players should be able to make factory only units because of silly crap they make up like "the upgrades are spread out!" is pure nonsense.
Not this again...
What's pure nonsense is the inability of people to recognize that this a clear example that Terran simply isn't symmetrical to the other races, and it's only in a disadvantaged way. One has to consider the average length of LOTV matches, the costs, and the tech involved. Terran must obtain a tier 3 tech building, the Armory, to start mech upgrades. Protoss and Zerg require a Tier 1 building.
Additionally, if each race wanted to get their ground units fully upgraded in a timely manner, consider the initial investment involved:
Zerg: three drones + three evolution chambers = 375/0 + opportunity cost of three larvae Protoss: three forges: 450/0 Terran: two engineering bays + two armories = 550/200 + cost of lost mining time for each worker for the entire duration of construction
Given the short and harass-heavy nature of LOTV matches, long term investments must be made more cautiously, and higher initial investment costs do, indeed, take their toll.
If Blizzard doesn't want factory play to be a separate entity from bio, the upgrades need to be better distributed (while still maintaining 5 total upgrades like the other races) to encourage biomech compositions. I'd rather see one upgrade shared universally across ground units instead of shared between factory and starport, personally. Blizzard doesn't seem to like where factory/starport compositions lead in HOTS anyway and made changes to discourage it.
But of course, people will continue to belittle these differences as if it's nothing, because if you don't play Terran, it's not your problem. And if it's not your problem, it's easy to dismiss it.
Dont bother work arguing with merkmerk. I have never seen him change his stance and all hi viewpoints come from his ladder frustrstions. Threat him like zerglingshepard while back.
On January 11 2016 12:38 MoonyD wrote: No surprises here to see Terran and Zerg players complaining about Adepts. Props to Bomber for being such a badass and not crying over 'imba' unlike the others.
you are either misunderstanding the sarcasm, or misplacing your own.
as for the adepts, have someone experienced with the build to go into a custom lobby with you, as a terran player. even if the player across several games only builds adept pressure half the time, it's enough to force you to make an early cyclone nearly every game.
if you've never played against someone who's good with it, you'll not know how much stress it puts on you.
I'd be interested. I'm platinum right now but I'm usually diamond, I can't get back cause I get disconnected something like one game out of four, which is really annoying. My terran is very weak but I'd be okay with custom games and see what we can find out.
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: You have to go Ling/Muta against very good terran or they gonna exploit your immobility
Roach Ravager are not bad, but 4 medivac drop at each base is better haha
Don't agree. We'll se in few months what's the meta. For now whenever i see Zerg going melee/muta it's usually easy win for Terran.
I don't agree on your opinion. I have different opinion.
I think we will get small baneling buff and ravager/roach nerf soon
In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros).
At beginning I was looking many europe games and I played on ladder Roach Ravager too, but then when good terran came I couldn't handle the drops and tanks.
I think foreigners not quite adapted to larvae mechanic and that is biggest problem. You need better management of all things. When you play muta ling baneling it feel like you have no larvae, but once you get hang of it, taking faster fourth base and macro hatch and better inject-timings then it gets easier.
Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region.
TvZ is very dynamic matchup and requires awareness on both ends. Terran have many tools to disrupt zergs like reaper, marine push, medivac tanks, hellions, firebats, liberator, medivac drops and banshees. Zerg has only all-ins as option to be aggressive. Like roach ravager push, baneling bust or nydus.
The problem you are observing with TvZ and muta/ling lose is because of following :
- Game is very early and terrans are very greedy currently ! They go reaper harass into 3 base tech + macro without a care in world. If Zerg go muta in that time then terran win because greedy. If Zerg go attack all-in in that time then Zerg win. That is situation on Europe/NA. It is same situation in korea, but they actually exploit that behavior then ! That is why you see many koreans go muta, they know good terrans know and can't bust all-in so easy. But some go still all-in because matchup terran favored. It can be hard time going mid game against perfect-timing-push-high-apm-korean-terrans.
In EU/NA it looks more like :
- nothing happens all game long. No harass from terran, no drops. Zerg techs to ultralisks and win with 3/3 plate upgrade!
In korea it is like :
- harass, drops, widow mines, liberator, drops, tanks, tank drops and then out of nowhere crucial timing push right before zerg get army going. Terran easy win. To counter all this only option is muta.
Don't forget when skill level change so do meta and strategy. If we lets say discuss strategy on silver gold level of play then roach / ravager very very strong. probably overpowerd strong !
I don't say all EU/NA terran are like that, but it is what I noticed so far
(only my personal honest opinion I made from observations since LOTV. When I am honest I think I am very right with my view ^__^ )
So you are saying that foreign Zergs not adapted to LotV by doing good and Korean Zergs adapated by doing bad? What were Solar builds againts Byun in OSC. He 6:2 Byun while Byun 2:0 Soo playing ling/bane/muta
70:30 is beyond broken btw and never happened in history of sc2 excluding very small sample size.
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: In EU/NA it looks more like :
- nothing happens all game long. No harass from terran, no drops. Zerg techs to ultralisks and win with 3/3 plate upgrade!
In korea it is like :
- harass, drops, widow mines, liberator, drops, tanks, tank drops and then out of nowhere crucial timing push right before zerg get army going. Terran easy win. To counter all this only option is muta.
Don't forget when skill level change so do meta and strategy. If we lets say discuss strategy on silver gold level of play then roach / ravager very very strong. probably overpowerd strong !
I don't say all EU/NA terran are like that, but it is what I noticed so far
I'm sorry, what level are you playing at again? No decent Terran players even on NA just LET Zerg Macro to Ultralisk and win easy...Most GM / Top master Terran players are just going 2-3 rax mass reaper and transitioning easily vs Zerg, Reaper mine is way too strong vs Zerg at the moment, Terran really has to make a mistake in order for you to win vs this style it seems....
On January 12 2016 07:37 keglu wrote: So you are saying that foreign Zergs not adapted to LotV by doing good and Korean Zergs adapated by doing bad? What were Solar builds againts Byun in OSC. He 6:2 Byun while Byun 2:0 Soo playing ling/bane/muta
70:30 is beyond broken btw and never happened in history of sc2 excluding very small sample size.
Nono sorry wrong english by me. it somestimes hard.
What I mean is that korean terrans to give zergs harder time. Like when people punch you hard eventually you get stronger and learn to dodge punches and take them like real man!
I think 70:30 TvZ in korean pro games is only at the moment. It will even out. Zerg players are strong and always adept so in future they less likely die to cheesy strategy by terran and know timings betters.
I hope you understand. I don't say it because of balance, but because ahead of meta. It is constantly evolving. Maybe I am wrong and zerg get really really good in future with roach/ravager, but it is sooooooo hard to defend drops with roach ravagers
All I say in my post I mean nice and not as insult
On January 12 2016 02:08 A_needle_jog wrote: In EU/NA it looks more like :
- nothing happens all game long. No harass from terran, no drops. Zerg techs to ultralisks and win with 3/3 plate upgrade!
In korea it is like :
- harass, drops, widow mines, liberator, drops, tanks, tank drops and then out of nowhere crucial timing push right before zerg get army going. Terran easy win. To counter all this only option is muta.
Don't forget when skill level change so do meta and strategy. If we lets say discuss strategy on silver gold level of play then roach / ravager very very strong. probably overpowerd strong !
I don't say all EU/NA terran are like that, but it is what I noticed so far
I'm sorry, what level are you playing at again? No decent Terran players even on NA just LET Zerg Macro to Ultralisk and win easy...Most GM / Top master Terran players are just going 2-3 rax mass reaper and transitioning easily vs Zerg, Reaper mine is way too strong vs Zerg at the moment, Terran really has to make a mistake in order for you to win vs this style it seems....
On January 12 2016 07:50 happyGo wrote: I dunno about this...it's always going to be possible to find one person from each race who will say something is IMBA.
Luckily, Blizzard has access to every Grandmaster vs Grandmaster game/matchup stat, probably on a daily level.
All it would take to refute Crank's anecdotal evidence would be stats that show 45%> win rate for Z and T against P amongst GMs in the last week...
Even then, the meta is changing on a weekly basis. Give it another two weeks.
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
On January 12 2016 07:19 A_needle_jog wrote: In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros).
[...]
Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region
Well, luckily we don't have to rely on your opinion or what you think, or what you say that the progamers say that the winrate is. Because we have the data, which says that Z > P (probably more than 55%), but there is no significant differences from 50-50 in TvZ or TvP. From aligulac, over last month, using all games, or restricting to GSL and SSL, as you want. December 2015, GSL in 2016 only. All gives the same result. Z > P, no signal in TvP or TvZ. So either the pros are too biased to count (possible), or you are not accurately reporting what the pros are saying (also possible).
So yeah, you've been complaining about how the phoneix opener was OP and made ZvP impossible to play for some while. How does that fit with the sub 45% winrate in PvZ in Korean pro games? How does it fit with the 40.5% PvZ winrate in GSL over 185 games in 2016? The pros in GSL still haven't caught on to your insight about the phoenix? Or maybe (gasp!) you jumped to conclusions too fast when you claimed OP on the phoenxies?? Maybe you were a bit biased as you are a zerg player yourself that like hydras, which happen to not be the right answer to mass phoenix???
Maybe time to reconsider your opinions when they conflict with data, what do you think?
I'm kindof surprised how everyone are obsessed with nerfing the adept, when the big shouting problem clearly is that zerg is beating the crap out of protoss...
I am a zerg. A crappy zerg, like gold on EU or something like that. I'm also a bit Terran, even crappier. I'm not good at playing sc2, but I am good at reading stats... So yes, I am arguing against my personal racial interest, because that is what the data shows.
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
I'm aware that the small sample size is problematic. Nevertheless it's the best piece of info we have to go on. A couple of hundred games at the highest level AND in a tournament setting (meaning it's about money and pros are therefore doing whatever it takes to win) have a much higher significance than interviews with a handful of pros about racial balance.
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
On January 12 2016 07:19 A_needle_jog wrote: In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros).
[...]
Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region
Well, luckily we don't have to rely on your opinion or what you think, or what you say that the progamers say that the winrate is. Because we have the data, which says that Z > P (probably more than 55%), but there is no significant differences from 50-50 in TvZ or TvP. From aligulac, over last month, using all games, or restricting to GSL and SSL, as you want. December 2015, GSL in 2016 only. All gives the same result. Z > P, no signal in TvP or TvZ. So either the pros are too biased to count (possible), or you are not accurately reporting what the pros are saying (also possible).
So yeah, you've been complaining about how the phoneix opener was OP and made ZvP impossible to play for some while. How does that fit with the sub 45% winrate in PvZ in Korean pro games? How does it fit with the 40.5% PvZ winrate in GSL over 185 games in 2016? The pros in GSL still haven't caught on to your insight about the phoenix? Or maybe (gasp!) you jumped to conclusions too fast when you claimed OP on the phoenxies?? Maybe you were a bit biased as you are a zerg player yourself that like hydras, which happen to not be the right answer to mass phoenix???
Maybe time to reconsider your opinions when they conflict with data, what do you think?
I'm kindof surprised how everyone are obsessed with nerfing the adept, when the big shouting problem clearly is that zerg is beating the crap out of protoss...
I am a zerg. A crappy zerg, like gold on EU or something like that. I'm also a bit Terran, even crappier. I'm not good at playing sc2, but I am good at reading stats... So yes, I am arguing against my personal racial interest, because that is what the data shows.
I have to say I find your post a little bit offensive. I feel sad when I read it like someone is hating me for just saying what other koreans are saying
I only quoted what Soulkey saying
(Soulkey is very good player. I look up to him )
"Soulkey Adept always makes Protoss ahead. I think they need to nerf Adept's cooldown. We can't hold Adept with Zerglings but if we make Roach, Adept is so fast so we still get damaged. I also think Liberator is very strong in early TvZ. That's why even Terran pro interviewed themselves that balance is not 50:50 its T 70:30 Z."
Also I tried to look for answers for phoenix how to win with skill against phoenix. You are hurting me, because I tried to improve my game and now you blame me and insult me. I feel sad now -____-
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful set of statistics. It's flooded with games that aren't great. You also need to clear out the qualifiers. For example, the first GSL pre-season qual had 7 no-name protoss getting beaten by pro zergs vs 1 no-name zerg being beaten by a pro protoss. That's a around a 12 game net to zerg, or ~15-20% of the PvZ games in that tournament.
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful statistic. It's flooded with games that aren't great.
Thank you for great post. I think too that it is not best information to look at sites like that. I think korean GSL and korea in general results are very important. In my eyes we will get a better view in one month when we have seen more games in korea
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful statistic. It's flooded with games that aren't great.
Thank you for great post. I think too that it is not best information to look at sites like that. I think korean GSL and korea in general results are very important. In my eyes we will get a better view in one month when we have seen more games in korea
Aligulac accounts for all games, including the ones in Korea. It is an excellent website. The problem is when people base their entire thought process or argument on Aligulac's broadest, unfiltered observations.
As TheWinks demonstrates, when sample size is so small, even assumptions like "similar amounts of no name players from all races attend qualifiers, therefore the stats are skewed proportionally for all three races, therefore we don't need to manually sift through them" go right out the window.
Statistics are only as useful as the analysis that follows.
On January 12 2016 07:19 A_needle_jog wrote: In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros).
[...]
Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region
Well, luckily we don't have to rely on your opinion or what you think, or what you say that the progamers say that the winrate is. Because we have the data, which says that Z > P (probably more than 55%), but there is no significant differences from 50-50 in TvZ or TvP. From aligulac, over last month, using all games, or restricting to GSL and SSL, as you want. December 2015, GSL in 2016 only. All gives the same result. Z > P, no signal in TvP or TvZ. So either the pros are too biased to count (possible), or you are not accurately reporting what the pros are saying (also possible).
So yeah, you've been complaining about how the phoneix opener was OP and made ZvP impossible to play for some while. How does that fit with the sub 45% winrate in PvZ in Korean pro games? How does it fit with the 40.5% PvZ winrate in GSL over 185 games in 2016? The pros in GSL still haven't caught on to your insight about the phoenix? Or maybe (gasp!) you jumped to conclusions too fast when you claimed OP on the phoenxies?? Maybe you were a bit biased as you are a zerg player yourself that like hydras, which happen to not be the right answer to mass phoenix???
Maybe time to reconsider your opinions when they conflict with data, what do you think?
I'm kindof surprised how everyone are obsessed with nerfing the adept, when the big shouting problem clearly is that zerg is beating the crap out of protoss...
I am a zerg. A crappy zerg, like gold on EU or something like that. I'm also a bit Terran, even crappier. I'm not good at playing sc2, but I am good at reading stats... So yes, I am arguing against my personal racial interest, because that is what the data shows.
I have to say I find your post a little bit offensive. I feel sad when I read it like someone is hating me for just saying what other koreans are saying
"Soulkey Adept always makes Protoss ahead. I think they need to nerf Adept's cooldown. We can't hold Adept with Zerglings but if we make Roach, Adept is so fast so we still get damaged. I also think Liberator is very strong in early TvZ. That's why even Terran pro interviewed themselves that balance is not 50:50 its T 70:30 Z."
Also I tried to look for answers for phoenix how to win with skill against phoenix. You are hurting me, because I tried to improve my game and now you blame me and insult me. I feel sad now -____-
When you first came here you would insult posters right and left happily. When they disapproved of you insulting them, I remember you told one to "fight like a man".
Here I am calling you out on something you have been complaining about loudly for quite some time. Showing data that is in direct conflict with what you are saying. I'm going pretty hard on you, but I feel I am not insulting you more than calling you biased and wrong in the phoenix case. I know you are a good sc2 players with a lot of knowledge, I am just trying to get you to take your head out of your zerg-biased bag. So what you SHOULD do is either:
1) Try to explain why your idea is still valid, despite the data. 2) admit that maybe you were wrong.
Instead, you choose to pull out largest number of sad smilies I've seen in a long while, and pretend that you are hurt. You completely avoid the discussion about how your previous rants were unfounded.
Is that how "a man" reacts? Avoids discussion and starts crying?? IS IT???
So please, let's try to not take everything so personal, and let's together try to understand what is going on in a more objective way. I know it's hard, but I think you can do it.
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful set of statistics. It's flooded with games that aren't great. You also need to clear out the qualifiers. For example, the first GSL pre-season qual had 7 no-name protoss getting beaten by pro zergs vs 1 no-name zerg being beaten by a pro protoss. That's a around a 12 game net to zerg, or ~15-20% of the PvZ games in that tournament.
Why should I filter the aligulac data? They already got a good selection. We have also gone through a lot of iterations filtering different time periods, restricting to GSL, or GSL and SSL, and so on. They all show the same thing. Z > P. Nothing for TvP or TvZ.
How do you suggest I select which players aren't good enough? The players that lose? What makes you think that this percieved OP-ness of adept-WP is only present for the top 30 players in the world, but not seen in the top 100? Why do we have reason to think that the KR qualifiers are not capable of properly executing the OP adept-WP? Or are you saying that the zergs are just more skilled than the protosses all of a sudden in lotv? Then why don't we see zergs beating the terrans as well, or toss lose terrans?
You can always ask for more filters, and I am sure that if you try sufficiently many different subsets, and cherry-pick games and players, you can find any signal you want. P > T, or T > P or what you want. And you can easily filter it down to a sufficiently small number of games to get rid of the Z > P significance. The point is that you need to select your samples BEFORE you do the analysis, or you get confirmation bias.
The good thing with aligulac is that it is a pre-selected unbiased selection of games, and a large number of them. And the signal is clear. There is a reason to track evolution over time, but further calls for selecting subsets of the data sound really desperate to me...
So what if we accept that the stats are what they are, and instead start thinking of WHY we see what we see?
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful statistic. It's flooded with games that aren't great.
Thank you for great post. I think too that it is not best information to look at sites like that. I think korean GSL and korea in general results are very important. In my eyes we will get a better view in one month when we have seen more games in korea
Aligulac accounts for all games, including the ones in Korea. It is an excellent website. The problem is when people base their entire thought process or argument on Aligulac's broadest, unfiltered observations.
As TheWinks demonstrates, when sample size is so small, even assumptions like "similar amounts of no name players from all races attend qualifiers, therefore the stats are skewed proportionally for all three races, therefore we don't need to manually sift through them" go right out the window.
That's included in the analysis...
I lowered the effective degrees of freedom more than a factor two to account for good or bad players playing several games against each other. I'm talking about this post. That is exactly the effect you are talking about, but feel free to claim that it ruins the analysis despite not knowing anything about it, why not.
And you know what? The f-ing signal is still there!
GAH, people really only see what they want to see!!! I'm going a bit mad I think. I should go do something else.
On January 12 2016 13:03 pure.Wasted wrote: Statistics are only as useful as the analysis that follows.
Comments are only as useful as the knowledge of the poster...
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful statistic. It's flooded with games that aren't great.
Thank you for great post. I think too that it is not best information to look at sites like that. I think korean GSL and korea in general results are very important. In my eyes we will get a better view in one month when we have seen more games in korea
Aligulac accounts for all games, including the ones in Korea. It is an excellent website. The problem is when people base their entire thought process or argument on Aligulac's broadest, unfiltered observations.
As TheWinks demonstrates, when sample size is so small, even assumptions like "similar amounts of no name players from all races attend qualifiers, therefore the stats are skewed proportionally for all three races, therefore we don't need to manually sift through them" go right out the window.
That's included in the analysis...
I lowered the effective degrees of freedom more than a factor two to account for good or bad players playing several games against each other. That is exactly the effect you are talking about...
And you know what? The f-ing signal is still there!
GAH, people really only see what they want to see!!! I'm going a bit mad I think. I should go do soemthing else.
I was talking about general theory. Of course I agree that PvZ needs help. But I disagree with your original notion that people are blind or biased not to consider it the #1 priority. For instance, TvP may point to severe design flaws while PvZ only has balance ones. And it may be that design flaws should be solved first, because their impact is broader.
I personally don't weigh in on PvZ because I approach most SC2 discussions looking at design, and for ZvP I wouldn't know where to start.
On January 12 2016 13:04 Cascade wrote: Why should I filter the aligulac data? They already got a good selection. We have also gone through a lot of iterations filtering different time periods, restricting to GSL, or GSL and SSL, and so on. They all show the same thing. Z > P. Nothing for TvP or TvZ.
But yet a reasonable number of protoss made their way through the qualifiers and performed just fine, including winning both pre-season tournaments. This is big red flag that there might be something more here.
On January 12 2016 13:04 Cascade wrote: How do you suggest I select which players aren't good enough? The players that lose? What makes you think that this percieved OP-ness of adept-WP is only present for the top 30 players in the world, but not seen in the top 100? Why do we have reason to think that the KR qualifiers are not capable of properly executing the OP adept-WP? Or are you saying that the zergs are just more skilled than the protosses all of a sudden in lotv? Then why don't we see zergs beating the terrans as well, or toss lose terrans?
Excluding non-notable players that get dunked on (the only exception is the one that beat Ryung from GSL quals) from GSL/SSL statistics is probably a pretty good idea. It's hard to draw the line, but the thing is, these things don't just cancel out. They're problems that are influencing the top lines in a major way.
On January 12 2016 13:04 Cascade wrote: The good thing with aligulac is that it is a pre-selected unbiased selection of games, and a large number of them. And the signal is clear. There is a reason to track evolution over time, but further calls for selecting subsets of the data sound really desperate to me...
This isn't necessarily true either. It's also self-selected. I've played in a tournament before and had some opponents report the games to aligulac and others not. I choose not to because I don't think my games matter. Another example of influence is in Proleague. Who's being fielded in proleague is heavily influenced by the state of the game. In 2014 there were tons of protoss being fielded and very few terrans. The average skill level of those terrans was higher than the protoss. If you just looked at the win rates, things looked pretty reasonable, but when you considered the number of benched terrans vs played protoss, you could realize there was a problem.
On January 12 2016 13:04 Cascade wrote: So what if we accept that the stats are what they are, and instead start thinking of WHY we see what we see?
You can choose to do that, and I can choose to dismiss your conclusions based on your assumptions of the quality of your data.
My problem with this is that winrate isn't that accurate to discuss balance. If there are two player playing race X in the entire RO64, and they both get kicked out in the RO16, then the conclusion would be that they have a 50% winrate, so race X is balanced. So imo win rate itself is a flawed method to completely base balance on.
However if you do it, using aligulac stats is alot better than just looking at GSL. The sample size of the GSL is simply way too small if you want to use statistics. And no, this is not about the number of games, but the number of players. If I play a 1000 games vs Soulkey you can with a certainty of more than 99% conclude that Zerg is stronger than Terran. And it would be incorrect, because what you should have found is that Soulkey playing Zerg is with more than 99% certain stronger than me player Terran. No matter how many games you are going to get from GSL, the actual number of players behind that stays quite limitted.
On January 11 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: WoL and HotS TvP:
Protoss is trying to survive on 3 bases vs insanely powerfull terran mine/MM simultaneous drops which are never unprofitable + very strong MMM steam/+1 timing attacks. If protoss survives, he can fight with equally strong Colossus+Templar+Gateway army vs Viking+Ghost+MMM.
LotV TvP:
Terran is crying like a little girl because Protoss can now harass with power of 30% what terran has in only 1 location with 4 second warp on a Prism which can't move half of the time and can't pickup all army and fly away. If terran survives, he can't lose with Liberators + MMM which are twice as mobile as protoss army and has ultimate anti-air and anti-ground tools.
May be terrans just need to stop playing WoL builds for 5 years and change something?
I get your sentiment, but the comparison between the warp prism and medivac is problematic.
Warp prisms and medivacs have the same storage capacity (8), it's just that Protoss players only build 1 in the current meta.
Protoss only build 1 prism because they are not scaling very good. 3 prisms will do nothing if your harass fails and you have to take a direct fight.
On January 12 2016 04:05 p68 wrote: Another reason you can't pickup the "whole army" is due to its distinct advantage: you can warp in units wherever you'd like! And if you warp in units, you might exceed the cargo capacity, yes...And yes, it immobilizes itself to allow for such a powerful ability. Strange that was somehow twisted into an overall disadvantage...
It is a huge disadvantage in a harassment conditions. You want to kill harvesters. If you can't kill harvesters, you want to lose nothing, fly away and look for another opportunity to do so.
When you unload from 2 medevacs, see the army coming, load and fly away very fast - good harassment conditions. You've killed some workers and lose nothing.
When you warping from 8 gateways for 4 seconds while all workers are escaping, see the army coming, load only 4 units, wait until prism became movable and fly away - bad harassment conditions. You've killed some workers only if your opponent has a bad reaction, always lose everything above 4 units and you have a higher risk of losing your prism.
If you don't face a drop defence, MMM has a much better dps to both workers and buildings than any protoss gateway mix.
If you can't defend one warp on prism with your army, you just was too greedy and get punished because MMM is stronger than adepts without upgrade and equally strong if they have the upgrade (resource wise).
On January 12 2016 04:05 p68 wrote: I mean, hell, you can send an empty warp prism to an enemy base and just build the units you'd like to harass with when you arrive.
Yes, prism is better only if you get caught in an open space by air units. But look how much better medevac is in all other conditions above.
On January 12 2016 04:05 p68 wrote: Regarding the "only 1 location" comment, isn't that up to the player...? You can build more than one warp prism you know...or you can send adept shades into one location for harass, and drop/warp-in another location simultaneously.
Prism harassment potential is limited to a gateway amount. It doesn't matter, how much prisms you have, you can't warp more than %gateway count% units. If you want to drop or drop+warp, prism loses all it's advantages and become just a bad medevac in a harass and a dead limit in a direct fight. You can't warp on a pylon to harass in LotV and protoss is weaker than terran in both simultaneous drop/warp-in or simultaneous drop/run-in due to the ~same adept mobility and worse adept dps than MMM.
Dear blizzard. i actually miss blink all in era. I would rather stop blink all ins all over again than beeing forced to stay in my base every tvp. Protoss can harass whit adeps so easy whit no risk. and when you clear it, THey have 3 bases.. and its not possible to punish it! Nothing really works. Late game are actually even worse than hots now. Because you cant snipe templars anymore lol.. emp? oh lets make some archons. tvp is horrible atm
Tvz: Ultralisk are to strong. Maraduers suck. Liberators is easy to avoid. Fungal + ultra.. cant even land snipe. AND if youre lucky and get 40 ghost, kill all ultras, Zerg remake them. and your ghost has 0 energy. and its gg..
Yet again, terrans are forced to go Marines tank medivac in all match ups.
On January 12 2016 15:23 TheWinks wrote: This isn't necessarily true either. It's also self-selected. I've played in a tournament before and had some opponents report the games to aligulac and others not.
That's not how it works. We add the games, we don't wait for people to add them for us.
I do not want to take this into the balance discussion. But has anyone made histograms of the number of games won vs gamelength (two in one diagram for wins and loses)? I would be really interested in that.
On January 12 2016 07:19 A_needle_jog wrote: In my opinion balance is : T>Z>P>T . (same opinion like good korean pros).
[...]
Pro gamer koreans say TvZ is currently 70%:30% in favor of Terran. I think is right for korea region
Well, luckily we don't have to rely on your opinion or what you think, or what you say that the progamers say that the winrate is. Because we have the data, which says that Z > P (probably more than 55%), but there is no significant differences from 50-50 in TvZ or TvP. From aligulac, over last month, using all games, or restricting to GSL and SSL, as you want. December 2015, GSL in 2016 only. All gives the same result. Z > P, no signal in TvP or TvZ. So either the pros are too biased to count (possible), or you are not accurately reporting what the pros are saying (also possible).
So yeah, you've been complaining about how the phoneix opener was OP and made ZvP impossible to play for some while. How does that fit with the sub 45% winrate in PvZ in Korean pro games? How does it fit with the 40.5% PvZ winrate in GSL over 185 games in 2016? The pros in GSL still haven't caught on to your insight about the phoenix? Or maybe (gasp!) you jumped to conclusions too fast when you claimed OP on the phoenxies?? Maybe you were a bit biased as you are a zerg player yourself that like hydras, which happen to not be the right answer to mass phoenix???
Maybe time to reconsider your opinions when they conflict with data, what do you think?
I'm kindof surprised how everyone are obsessed with nerfing the adept, when the big shouting problem clearly is that zerg is beating the crap out of protoss...
I am a zerg. A crappy zerg, like gold on EU or something like that. I'm also a bit Terran, even crappier. I'm not good at playing sc2, but I am good at reading stats... So yes, I am arguing against my personal racial interest, because that is what the data shows.
I have to say I find your post a little bit offensive. I feel sad when I read it like someone is hating me for just saying what other koreans are saying
I only quoted what Soulkey saying
(Soulkey is very good player. I look up to him )
"Soulkey Adept always makes Protoss ahead. I think they need to nerf Adept's cooldown. We can't hold Adept with Zerglings but if we make Roach, Adept is so fast so we still get damaged. I also think Liberator is very strong in early TvZ. That's why even Terran pro interviewed themselves that balance is not 50:50 its T 70:30 Z."
Also I tried to look for answers for phoenix how to win with skill against phoenix. You are hurting me, because I tried to improve my game and now you blame me and insult me. I feel sad now -____-
When you first came here you would insult posters right and left happily. When they disapproved of you insulting them, I remember you told one to "fight like a man".
Here I am calling you out on something you have been complaining about loudly for quite some time. Showing data that is in direct conflict with what you are saying. I'm going pretty hard on you, but I feel I am not insulting you more than calling you biased and wrong in the phoenix case. I know you are a good sc2 players with a lot of knowledge, I am just trying to get you to take your head out of your zerg-biased bag. So what you SHOULD do is either:
1) Try to explain why your idea is still valid, despite the data. 2) admit that maybe you were wrong.
Instead, you choose to pull out largest number of sad smilies I've seen in a long while, and pretend that you are hurt. You completely avoid the discussion about how your previous rants were unfounded.
Is that how "a man" reacts? Avoids discussion and starts crying?? IS IT???
So please, let's try to not take everything so personal, and let's together try to understand what is going on in a more objective way. I know it's hard, but I think you can do it.
On January 12 2016 10:05 stuchiu wrote: There wont ever be enough Korean games as this year will have the least amount ever in SC2 (excepting 2010).
This is probably why they are so much more reactionary.
On January 12 2016 10:01 Nebuchad wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:49 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 09:37 coolprogrammingstuff wrote:
On January 12 2016 08:16 CheddarToss wrote:
On January 12 2016 05:24 hunterzubrus wrote: Protoss is insane at the moment. I don't understand why they needed to buff photon overcharge so much. It's crazy that a mothership core pops out and instantly able to overcharge two pylons. Also, adepts are super strong with both tanking and shade abilities. Not to mention the stupid WP pickup range. WTF was blizzard thinking? And all you Protoss players complaining about the pros being salty.... Think for a second that livelihood of these players depends on this game being balanced. Of course they're going to be salty when Protoss is completely broken at the moment. David Kim, please wake up and nerf this stupid race.
What on earth are you talking about? Win rates actually indicate that Protoss is the weakest race at the moment.
I don't get this "statistics tell us otherwise" argument.
Copy pasted my post from another thread
I don't quite understand this argument - No ladder game is independent in determining your skill level, as you seem to be posting this on every thread.
If protoss is winning a lot of PvT and is getting ranked at a higher level due to ostensible imbalance, that could be a plausible explanation of why they're losing all the PvZ - because winning all their PvT has inflated their MMR. The zergs they are facing could be much more skilled relative to their rank compared to the protoss.
Or it could be a combination of both - PvT is too strong, PvZ is too weak etc. I just don't get how statistics can measure this because you're being readjusted to face opponents that are similarly ranked to you, whether they got their through imbalance or not!
It's also the reason why I'm taking the pros opinion much more over empty statistics over every league.
Except it's not about the ladder at all, but about tournaments. High profile tournaments attract the most skilled players of all races, and if Protoss has a win chance of around 48% vs T and 41 or 42% vs Zerg, what's your explanation then? Protoss pros are just worse than T and Z pros?
We haven't had that many korean games, you can't really say "it's demonstrated that protoss is weaker because of these stats" right now. You can say there's no statistical basis for claiming T is underpowered right now, though. Which would be true.
Ummm, guys. There are enough games. Aligulac. And they say Z > P. Probably more than 55% winrate. And that TvZ and TvP are not far off from 50%.
I posted that just on the top of this page.
You need to make an effort clear out the crud from aligulac in order for it to be a useful set of statistics. It's flooded with games that aren't great. You also need to clear out the qualifiers. For example, the first GSL pre-season qual had 7 no-name protoss getting beaten by pro zergs vs 1 no-name zerg being beaten by a pro protoss. That's a around a 12 game net to zerg, or ~15-20% of the PvZ games in that tournament.
Okay I apologize to you if you hate me for old times, but I am changed person after admin told me what I did wrong ( I was aggressive bully to hide my soft feeling side )
Now we are friends and all agree on what koreans and soulkey say
On January 12 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: It is a huge disadvantage in a harassment conditions. You want to kill harvesters. If you can't kill harvesters, you want to lose nothing, fly away and look for another opportunity to do so.
When you unload from 2 medevacs, see the army coming, load and fly away very fast - good harassment conditions. You've killed some workers and lose nothing.
When you warping from 8 gateways for 4 seconds while all workers are escaping, see the army coming, load only 4 units, wait until prism became movable and fly away - bad harassment conditions. You've killed some workers only if your opponent has a bad reaction, always lose everything above 4 units and you have a higher risk of losing your prism..
But it's because you warped in an amount of units that exceeded the storage capacity of the warp prism. You realize that's an advantage...right? You didn't have to have all the units involved ready before arriving at the enemy base..
The original comparisons I responded to only discussed cons without acknowledging the pros. Terran only brings the amount of units that matches the storage capacity, so of course they're able to pickup the entire army that they brought in.
But anyway, the bad condition you discuss is alleviated, at least partially, by both the warp prism pickup range and adept shades. You can use the warp prism to warp in units right outside the cliff and elevator the troops in, so that you can still catch the enemy off guard, and adept shades help survival and ensure a high probability of doing damage. Notice that it's not the warp prism itself that people are complaining about; it's warp prism PLUS adepts! Nobody complains about warp prism + zealot or stalker...
On January 12 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote:If you don't face a drop defence, MMM has a much better dps to both workers and buildings than any protoss gateway mix.
If you can't defend one warp on prism with your army, you just was too greedy and get punished because MMM is stronger than adepts without upgrade and equally strong if they have the upgrade (resource wise).
What we see in the current meta is that Protoss players are able to pull of very early adept/WP harass and take a third easily without missing a beat. The third can be taken relatively safely, even if the harass fails to do significant damage. Protoss players can call others greedy, but it is kind of comical to do so, at the moment. Pylon overcharge, anyone?
On January 12 2016 18:11 sh1RoKen wrote: Yes, prism is better only if you get caught in an open space by air units. But look how much better medevac is in all other conditions above.
That's not the only reason, no. When your prism is built, you can go ahead and fly it straight to the enemy's base, and between the infrastructure getting there and cost of the warp prism, you spent more minerals, but half the gas the Terran player had to. You don't even have to load it or have your units built ahead of time; you can just warp in once you arrive (inside or right outside the base, depending on opponent's vision). In fact, this is one of the many reasons that permit warp prism harass to come out as early as it does...you can make the trip across a large map before your units are even ready.
Look, I realize MMM drops are incredibly strong, but the comparison between warp prism + adept and MMM drops was incredibly biased, only acknowledging the pros of one side and the cons of the other, making it sound like adept + warp prism drops were just so damn weak in comparison, you'd wonder why anyone would complain, right? It really takes a truly biased person to recognize the strength of the adept + warp prism combo and why people are complaining about it.
with good use of Wp adept you can kill 6-7 workers.but it wont put terran eco down.they are very fun unit to watch.if blizz nerf them we will see less fun games.
On January 12 2016 23:40 SpecKROELLchen wrote: I do not want to take this into the balance discussion. But has anyone made histograms of the number of games won vs gamelength (two in one diagram for wins and loses)? I would be really interested in that.
Very small sample size (and I'm not even sure where the games are taken from) but on starcraft tools or something, what I saw was terrans losing in TvP the longer the game goes, but winning in TvZ. It was only like 50 games or so.
On January 10 2016 23:13 spbelky wrote: Honestly, just add a delay to the activation of Photon Overcharge + make it 50 energy and then buff the duration by like 50%. Then slightly increase Warp Prisms build time or add a gas cost. It isn't so much that prism adepts are so OP... it's that Protoss is 100% safe during the PvT early game. Find me a single cheese vs Protoss that can win games, or a single early pressure build that even slightly threatens P... They don't exist.
"Korean scene has only 2 tournaments and they always take time to see balance in tournament and make plan to change balance. which means every 6 months they change balance. I'm so happy to imagine 6 month break since my first opponent is protoss in GSL." 100% why ppl like Flash and Fantasy retired exactly at that time. Seeing terran being completely inferior especially in lategame TvP for years they knew this isn't going to change in LOTV. You are expected to bring in results, but you cannot win against that balance. And if they change something, they do it so carefully you got to wait another half year to see if it even changed anything. However Taeja is a bit whiny here, I expect him to win anyways
Funny though how long it takes blizzard to react. You could see some things that are clearly imba from day 1 of the beta. And I don't mean " I am a gold player and don't know how to stop this " imba, but clearly too strong for the cost and in some cases too early for the game. Like many pros always argued that the Oracle was too strong. Till the last days of HOTS some players complained. And what did Blizzard do. Nothing. These slow balance changes and waiting for the meta to evolve (into SCV pulls or whatever) to still hold up the 50% winrate Blizzard is so proud of is so tiring. I thought with SC2 we eventually get a game that is as balanced as BW was, but I guess we will never have that.
To be fair BW was never truly balanced either. Professional mapmakers made it balanced. Every now and then an imbalanced map was introduced and had to be removed. Even some relatively balanced maps had imbalances and a second version had to be made. In fact back in the early days of BW the game was super imbalanced when island maps were a thing. Yellow was essentially as good as Boxer but he couldn't overcome the imbalance. Just saying
I dont know if it's all that op. I am a fan of letting the meta develop itself as I said during the Beta. However in an unstable meta with few opportunities for koreans to shine, it hits people twice as hard if they lose due to balance issues. Imho it's a bad situation currently that cannot be solved by nerfing. If we had more korean starcraft events, losses due to seemingly balance related issues would not be so harsh.
On January 13 2016 07:43 Psychobabas wrote: Just have to let the meta settle down guys... for the past 5 years...
I'm just smurfing in lower ranks on different regions, thats the game for me these days haha
I would say that I am quite a negative person towards Blizzard and partially towards Starcraft itself but this post and your signature kinda asks why you are still online here.
Bomber Well, They can buff Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Isn't it ironic that bomber got 3-0 by adepts the other day.
Wait, are you saying that Bomber was serious with that comment? Honestly not sure. I took it for granted that he was just being mad at sarcastic, at which point, no it wouldn't be very ironic imo.
Bomber Well, They can buff Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Isn't it ironic that bomber got 3-0 by adepts the other day.
Wait, are you saying that Bomber was serious with that comment? Honestly not sure. I took it for granted that he was just being mad at sarcastic, at which point, no it wouldn't be very ironic imo.
I don't know, I think he's just a huge fan of adepts.
Bomber Well, They can buff Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Isn't it ironic that bomber got 3-0 by adepts the other day.
Wait, are you saying that Bomber was serious with that comment? Honestly not sure. I took it for granted that he was just being mad at sarcastic, at which point, no it wouldn't be very ironic imo.
I don't know, I think he's just a huge fan of adepts.
Bomber Well, They can buff Adept more for real. I think it wouldn't be bad to add attack ability in Warp Prism as well. I'm serious.
Isn't it ironic that bomber got 3-0 by adepts the other day.
Wait, are you saying that Bomber was serious with that comment? Honestly not sure. I took it for granted that he was just being mad at sarcastic, at which point, no it wouldn't be very ironic imo.
I don't know, I think he's just a huge fan of adepts.
On January 10 2016 21:02 DeadByDawn wrote: The main problem is Warp Prism - it's a zero risk/cost strategy. You may as well build one because you willneed the offensive warp in later anyway.
Compare to a Medivac - it costs me gas, it carries a limited number of units, I have to fill it with units first. If I lose it early game then I am screwed. If I move out with it and Protoss attacks my base then I am screwed. When it hits the opponent I only have those units that are in it and can not reinforce. It unloads slowly. It has to be directly over the units it is picking up and thus in danger.
None of these disadvantages apply to the WP - Blizzard's design team can be retarded at times.
Completely agree with this, the pick up from a distance thing is insanely retarded, drop play viability went from T > P > Z .....
To P >>> T >> Z
Overlord drop should be moved to an Overseer upgrade, that way in the later stages Zerg has fast and reliable drop play since the Overseer costs gas, needs the speed upgrade, and still has no offensive capabilities other then detection I don't see why it wouldn't be imbalanced. Do all the other races need uberly strong drop play while Zerg get's shafted by design alone?
At least Medivacs cost gas and present themselves in a vulnerable fashion if they are dropping, Warp Prism is like, why the hell would you not build at least one or two? You are going to do damage no matter what, and it costs minerals, MINERALS, even Zerg's terrible drop play costs gas lol so I'm totally lost on the Prism atm
Balancing 2 races in RTS is easy, but 3 becomes infinitely harder.
Take the warp prism for example, even in its current state it's more of less balanced in zvp, but completely broken in pvt with the pickup range.
It's impossible to balance from the ground up anymore, with all the OP units and broken game mechanics already in place. Instead, I really wish blizzard would just admit their wrongdoings, and buff according to matchup, i.e., tank +20 damage vs shields, etc.
EPT
)
