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Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
Let them the ability to micro, but punish bad micro : The shade of adept can't be cancelled anymore so P must use it really wisely and the other can predict where it goes. Lower the health of WP. It's super easy to "micro" with such a bulky mobile unit ! Put HP at 50-50 or 75-75, and a WM can OS it, while P much be really cautious at using it. | ||
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Glorfindel!
Sweden1815 Posts
On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote: What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. | ||
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HellHound
Bulgaria5962 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote: Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. TvP was terran favored in the blink all in era (post january) acordding to that graph :D Maybe it's just bullshit graph? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On January 11 2016 04:54 travis wrote: I am going to laugh if results for the next couple months end up showing nothing like what the pros are complaining about. They may or may not. I don't think it's healthy to leave blatantly bad/broken units and poorly balanced units in the game as they are just becasue winrates are 50/50 even if the match-up is absolutely terrible. I mean broodlord/infestor was 50/50 and immortal sentry pvz 50/50 winrates at some points but those games were some of the worse ever produced in the history of SC2. | ||
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Merkmerk
United States96 Posts
Funny to watch the narrative shift - not so much here (except in the balance forum populated by a lot of terran task force whiners), but on reddit and bnet it was constant moaning about how overpowered Zerg is But it mirrors my experiences on the ladder - ravager timing was great against terran until they started using early liberator builds which a) hard counter ravager builds w/ tank and banshee but b) are completely safe to any early aggression. Protoss is similar. Lurkers annihilate Protoss until they figure out new timings, disruptor play, and openings and now it's really difficult to scout, react, and defend against zealot + immortal timing or mass adept + void ray. Protoss takes 3rd behind timing and early aggression is completely shut down by how obscene PO is right now | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:10 avilo wrote: They may or may not. I don't think it's healthy to leave blatantly bad/broken units and poorly balanced units in the game as they are just becasue winrates are 50/50 even if the match-up is absolutely terrible. I mean broodlord/infestor was 50/50 and immortal sentry pvz 50/50 winrates at some points but those games were some of the worse ever produced in the history of SC2. The players in the OP are not complaining about design, they are saying that protoss is a broken(overpowered) race. So unless protoss just coincidentally has worse pros playing for it, which history says it clearly doesn't, then the statistics should back that up. If statistics repeatedly do not back that up, then the players are probably biased and wrong based on preconceived notions of how the game should be designed. That's not to say that it isn't bad design. There probably are balance and design issues. But it's straight up disrespectful to suggest that a race is overpowered while it's top pros lose over and over. So, we will see what happens. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote: Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. That is blatantly not true. Anyone who lived through GOM TvT would know that. It went from bad to worse peaking at half of the players in the GSL being Terran in August 2011. Statistics do not always go toward 50%. PvZ was bad in November, why didn't it trend toward 50%? It actually trended away from that... you're not even making sense. That and the fact there wasn't even close to a 50% win rate during the BL-Infestor era. Terran had between a 45% winrate and a 42% win rate versus Zerg during that time. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
I dont think many people realize how screwed protoss is after the adept and WP gets nerfed. The sub 50% win is WITH an overpowered unit at the moment. PvT, Protoss got the disruptor, lost the collosus - and is now playing against an Air unit that 2 shots everything. Protoss doesnt have good anti air except from the stargate (which again is hardcountered by the mineral unit - marine) or blink stalkers - which are bad against everything else. Add in the fact that mules are still giving terrans a significant advantage over protoss in terms of mineral income on 3-4 bases. Vs zerg, the option of mutalisks, 3/3 melee Cracklings / ultras, or a solid range attack build is extremely hard to counter properly - and now (compared to Hots) gives Zerg the edge in the lategame. To sum it up, Protoss has always had the some of the biggest drawbacks in economy / production / mobility (beaten only by mech) - in turn they had the best deathball. Take the deathball and its simply underpowered. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:32 weikor wrote: Do any of the koreans interviewed actually play protoss? I dont think many people realize how screwed protoss is after the adept and WP gets nerfed. The sub 50% win is WITH an overpowered unit at the moment. PvT, Protoss got the disruptor, lost the collosus - and is now playing against an Air unit that 2 shots everything. Protoss doesnt have good anti air except from the stargate (which again is hardcountered by the mineral unit - marine) or blink stalkers - which are bad against everything else. Add in the fact that mules are still giving terrans a significant advantage over protoss in terms of mineral income on 3-4 bases. Vs zerg, the option of mutalisks, 3/3 melee Cracklings / ultras, or a solid range attack build is extremely hard to counter properly - and now (compared to Hots) gives Zerg the edge in the lategame. To sum it up, Protoss has always had the some of the biggest drawbacks in economy / production / mobility (beaten only by mech) - in turn they had the best deathball. Take the deathball and its simply underpowered. Except for Trap, he interviewed a bunch of the other races and asked specifically about Adepts. Obviously you're going to get those answers. This is a very loaded interview, and shouldn't be taken for anything other than that. These interviews are certainly not stronger evidence than win rates of balance problems. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote: Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote: makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ | ||
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Edpayasugo
United Kingdom2223 Posts
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote: No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate was 50% and the game was balanced, when before it wasn't. Now the game design decisions that allowed for Broodlord Infestor were piss poor, but that is an entirely different discussion than balance winrates. Terran went a whole year massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ LOL@this - TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes. TvZ I think is pretty close in balance - with T having a slight adv in the midgame as per standard sc2 but with the ultimate late game composition heavily skewed toward Z - I think Ultras could be a tad strong but only once the Z is so big that they have corrupt/bl/ultra to support. Not sure how blizz could fix this without messing up the balance one way or the other. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote: makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote: TvP is definitely a problem - HOTS already had too many early game options that forced T into cookiecutter builds to stand a chance - the adept / WP sends this condition into extremes. I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1. That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse. So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs. On January 11 2016 06:46 DomeGetta wrote: LOL@this - Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:47 Big J wrote: not really. i guess part of the reason why BL/Inf wasnt nerfed was that in Korea except for the very last season of WoL Terran was the best represented race in Code S. only in the season RorO won Zergs had one more player than terran in Code S. the winrate was always around 40-60 by the way. Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5226 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:53 DomeGetta wrote: Um - you should probably stipulate what time frame you are talking about a bit better "except for the last season of Wol?" Are you ignoring the entire year of 2014? 2014 wasn't the year of Broodlord Infestor, buddy. That build was dominant in WOL only, and HOTS began in 2013. | ||
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DomeGetta
480 Posts
On January 11 2016 06:50 BronzeKnee wrote: I don't know how many years Protoss had to open one single way against Terran or risk or straight up losing to the 1-1-1. That being said, the issue with any kind of Adept/WP nerf is that it makes an almost balanced winrate (Terran is winning 52% of the time) even worse. So sure, nerf the Adept or WP, but give Protoss some compensatory buffs. Dumb people like to laugh at what they don't understand. You don't need to lash out like a little kid when someone disagrees with you. This will come out quite obviously in the tournament results in KR (which is the highest level of play - which is the only level of play where imbalance should be discussed) - keep holding onto your statistics that factor in 90% of players who actually don't know the best way to play the game - solid defense. | ||
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