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On January 11 2016 07:53 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo. So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg?
He's complaining about roach/ravager because it beats a silly 'pure mech' style build where terran players decide to limit themselves to specific unit comps at the start of the game
Koreans don't have issues with roach ravager because they play with all units and don't make up comps and demand Blizzard make them viable
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If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
stalker damage / colossi maybe
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On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
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On January 11 2016 08:07 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 07:53 Railgan wrote:On January 11 2016 07:47 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 07:02 Merkmerk wrote:On January 11 2016 06:39 BronzeKnee wrote:On January 11 2016 06:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 11 2016 06:00 Glorfindel! wrote:On January 11 2016 05:41 idkfa wrote:What I don't understand is how these comments don't line up with Aligulac's balance report, which shows Protoss has (at present) a sub-50% winrate against Terran and an alarmingly poor matchup against Zerg. I know that the top of the Korean ladder is dominated by Protoss, and since the responders above are Korean as well, that should be their perspective - but when money's on the line, Protoss is primed to choke. Well... TvZ was around 50% aswell during the BL-Infestor-era.. Statistics will always go towards 50 percent. makes sense in a way. When a race is really in a bad place balance wise, only the best players of that race remain, and those players are still able to fight with an evenish winrate in an unfavorable meta. I'm pretty sure at that time there was a huge number of non T match-ups and very little TvP/TvZ (let's not talk about TvT lol, I remember there was like more than a year without a single GSL TvT). No, don't believe that garbage. Terrans were used to winning everything before the BL-Infestor era. When they stopped winning everything, and only won 50% of things, they complained heavily about imbalance. This is a psychological phenomenon where people get used to the state as it is, and accept it (why people stay in abusive relationships). So even some Zergs who were winning more often were uncomfortable with this new state because it seemed out of the ordinary. But the win-rate with BL-Infestor wasn't close to 50/50, it was out of control, Zerg was dominating. Before that Terran went a whole year with a massively high win rate and that directly lead to GOM TvT. After Broodlord Infestor became the meta, Zerg dominated. Check it: http://aligulac.com/misc/balance/ There's definitely some psychology involved The Terran players of SC2 - at least the mass whining ones - are not the Terran players of SC1 vanilla. The struggle was real there. Terran actually was the weakest race until BW and you really had to outplay your opponents on every level using a mix of your awful units WoL Terran were so insanely strong - and really well designed. The playerbase just became used to Terran being an easy-to-execute joke and the struggle of dealing with it, especially early WoL TvZ Just look at LOTV ZvT. There hasn't been any patch changes and now Terran is crapping all over Zerg, yet immediately after LOTV there was mass complaints about how unfair Zerg is. Now the dust has settled, Terran has crushed Zerg in two major tourneys, and Blizzard is reverting almost all of their planned zerg nerfs Uh maybe in a few tourney bo3s, but everywhere else...Zerg is still ridiculously OP with roach/ravager vs everything and hive tech dominates late game. Once adept/WP bs is fixed i'm sure people will see how ridiculous Zerg actually is right now. Terran / Protoss essentially have to kill Zerg before they "get to late game" in a lot of games or they struggle vs hive tech. Only reason people are forgetting about how ridiculous Zerg is...is only because warp prism adept hits early in every single match-up that you don't see all of the non sensical late game Zerg games atm. It's sort of how when 1/1/1 Terrans were abusing in WOL to beat Protoss so they couldn't abuse mass chargelot late game or storm + collosus, but if the game went really late T basically was dead. Anyways, to get to the point: adept/warp prism everyone agrees is an issue. Once that is fixed people will realize mass roach/ravager is basically the same thing - you just literally spam one unit that beats every other unit in the game. Ravagers aren't any better than adepts imo. So you are saying Roach Ravager is overpowered (against terran i presume) while korean terrans say that Terran is stronger than Zerg? He's complaining about roach/ravager because it beats a silly 'pure mech' style build where terran players decide to limit themselves to specific unit comps at the start of the game Koreans don't have issues with roach ravager because they play with all units and don't make up comps and demand Blizzard make them viable
Atleast it's now the ravager and not the viper that causes the problem!
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On January 11 2016 08:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
yes like techlab for liberator.
for ultra if they revert marau do only 1 attack not 2 thats ok imo but hiting at 10 only on ultra is unplayable.
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On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer.
Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
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On January 11 2016 08:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators.
Probably because it's hard to get there?
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On January 11 2016 09:21 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:41 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well. Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators. Probably because it's hard to get there?
Professional tip; you never make BC's.
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Man, I always like hearing a Pro's take on the game.
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On January 11 2016 09:21 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:41 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well. Most Terrans dont know about the Mass Ghost Liberator Battlecruiser late game either. Where you get like 10+ Battlecruisers 15 Ghosts and fill it up with liberators. Probably because it's hard to get there?
Because BC Ghost gets feedbacked in 2 seconds and the remaining lumps of metal are pulverized by the tempests.
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What I took from this is that the community can't agree on what's wrong or even that anything is wrong much less on what the solution might be. 
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On January 11 2016 08:19 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. They could nerf adepts AND liberators AND ultras though.
You win the thread! Add Vipers on for good measure.
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I agree the warp prism is too op and only costs minerals. The WP and Adept just need some work and then will be nice to see where the balance is at. still wonder whats goin to happen with the ultra.
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On January 10 2016 22:15 todespolka wrote:
Pro players should not balance the game. I know they have most experience but they dont seek a good game, they seek a fair game which is usually very predictable, easy to understand (hardcounter relations) and boring. They can give feedback but people should stay critical.
The units arent strong perse, they are strong in skilled hands and weak in others. Its very easy for blink stalkers or ravagers to take out liberators if terran positions them bad. Same is true for adepts. Bad players run into a trap with them and let them die.
Its good that protoss has a strong early game harass again. A cooldown nerf would make the unit useless. If we need a change they should make the adept weaker vs marins while making the cooldown shorter. That way its only micro and positioning which decides the outcome of the game. For the midgame and lategame you can scale adepts back to its strength through upgrades (give them more +X attack per upgrade). Or give it an ability to trade shorter cooldown for strenght in mid and lategame.
Also its fair that the warp prism stays strong. Protoss player sacrifice production for a warp prism. He is not able to produce immortals, disruptors and collossus. Terran on the other hand can produce two medivacs or two liberators at once with 1 starport and doesnt need the starport for anything else. Thats why warp prism needs to survive much longer than other units.
Also 6 month balance cycles are very good for a game like sc2. Its not a moba which is predictable due to the limited options per match. In sc2 you can always chose every unit, every tech path on different maps in every match. The game has thanks variability a lot more possible outcomes which nobody can forsee. A small change can turn the game upside down which happened a few times in the history of sc2.
Oh no, I hate these kinds of posts. These are the players trying to defend going from platinum to masters with an 80% w/l ratio vs Terran off of one build. Similar to the player that got GM with only doing 4-gate in WoL. Please stop talking.
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On January 11 2016 10:16 looknohands119 wrote:What I took from this is that the community can't agree on what's wrong or even that anything is wrong much less on what the solution might be.
Well, Protosses say it's fine and don't want anything to change, everybody argues which race is the weakest.
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No surprises here to see Terran and Zerg players complaining about Adepts. Props to Bomber for being such a badass and not crying over 'imba' unlike the others.
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What if: Warp Prism needs to research the pickup radius, BUT it comes with speed.
Would that turn WP more balanced?
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On January 11 2016 08:41 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well.
yeah that usually happens when you turtle on 3-4 bases the whole game and never attack
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On January 11 2016 13:10 GenesisX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2016 08:41 avilo wrote:On January 11 2016 08:04 Nebuchad wrote:
If they nerf the adept before the first season then they must buff something else of protoss.
The large majority of protoss wins vs terran come from adept. In later stages most protosses have just been dying to liberators. If you make adepts useless (most of the nerfs that were proposed, like making adepts armored, would make them completely useless, and not just "less strong"), then you're presenting a game in which protoss has weak midgame leading into weak (foreseeable) lategame. Which doesn't make much sense. And given that we aren't terrans, I expect the situation to last a while longer. Most Protoss don't even know about the mass disruptor+ tempest late game yet where you just mass tempest and get like 10+ disruptors and infinitely send disruptor shots into the Terran army. Nothing in the game beats it but only a few people know about it. Liberators actually suck against it as well. yeah that usually happens when you turtle on 3-4 bases the whole game and never attack
Absolutely wrecked.
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thank you CranK
And that confirms Blizzard HAS TO nerf adept warp prism
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EPT
