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+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed.
+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there.
Wow seriously? you have such extreme reactions given there is a paperthin meta right now and the game has been played professionally in 2 tournaments. Your idea of more armor for ultras is atrocious, terrans already struggle vs +8 armor ultras, let alone adding more armor. A psi-storm-sized corrosive bile that lands faster? you must be joking, because blinding cloud+fungal+storm bile would be extremely broken, let alone broken in the early game. Ravagers vT are already in a weird place in the early game, with 3-4 biles being able to safely break bunkers. What is your idea of balance? why are you so toxic about the future of this game? if you want a game revolved completely around a stale meta and your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction?
Are you trolling? Because you are not swag_bro.
EDIT: Personally, I think we need to let the meta settle and builds evolve, the game came out 18 days ago, and people are already screaming to the sky how bad it is. Those same people are the ones who were screaming when HotS came out, and now saying that it is amazing. Calm the hell down. I really like TvP interactions, TvZ, and even PvT and PvZ, just because mirror matchups are in a weird place right now doesnt make the game bad. It means that players are still adapting to new styles of their own race and using what they know in a limited time.
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France12901 Posts
Wasn't the first post ironic because terran is in an obviously shitty state at the moment? (which might change without the help of Blizzard)
The second post is weird because HotS is easily the worst game of the Starcraft 2 Trilogy.
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On November 29 2015 08:25 vult wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed. On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there. Wow seriously? you have such extreme reactions given there is a paperthin meta right now and the game has been played professionally in 2 tournaments. Your idea of more armor for ultras is atrocious, terrans already struggle vs +8 armor ultras, let alone adding more armor. A psi-storm-sized corrosive bile that lands faster? you must be joking, because blinding cloud+fungal+storm bile would be extremely broken, let alone broken in the early game. Ravagers vT are already in a weird place in the early game, with 3-4 biles being able to safely break bunkers. What is your idea of balance? why are you so toxic about the future of this game? if you want a game revolved completely around a stale meta and your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction? Are you trolling? Because you are not swag_bro.
That first quote is sarcasm. The 2nd one is how he really feels about LotV. Personally disagree with everything he said but he's free to state his opinion. Although he could be less toxic about it, I agree.
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On November 29 2015 08:25 vult wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed. On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there. Wow seriously? you have such extreme reactions given there is a paperthin meta right now and the game has been played professionally in 2 tournaments. Your idea of more armor for ultras is atrocious, terrans already struggle vs +8 armor ultras, let alone adding more armor. A psi-storm-sized corrosive bile that lands faster? you must be joking, because blinding cloud+fungal+storm bile would be extremely broken, let alone broken in the early game. Ravagers vT are already in a weird place in the early game, with 3-4 biles being able to safely break bunkers. What is your idea of balance? why are you so toxic about the future of this game? if you want a game revolved completely around a stale meta and your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction? Are you trolling? Because you are not swag_bro.
Pretty sure MockHammill is trolling. Char hates LotV and wants 3 base deathball back, seeing as he plays Protoss.
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On November 29 2015 08:33 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 08:25 vult wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed. On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there. Wow seriously? you have such extreme reactions given there is a paperthin meta right now and the game has been played professionally in 2 tournaments. Your idea of more armor for ultras is atrocious, terrans already struggle vs +8 armor ultras, let alone adding more armor. A psi-storm-sized corrosive bile that lands faster? you must be joking, because blinding cloud+fungal+storm bile would be extremely broken, let alone broken in the early game. Ravagers vT are already in a weird place in the early game, with 3-4 biles being able to safely break bunkers. What is your idea of balance? why are you so toxic about the future of this game? if you want a game revolved completely around a stale meta and your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction? Are you trolling? Because you are not swag_bro. Pretty sure MockHammill is trolling. Char hates LotV and wants 3 base deathball back, seeing as he plays Protoss.
My post wasnt really directed at MockHammill, at least he wasn't over the top with his post and jumping to conclusions.
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Northern Ireland25738 Posts
Interesting to see Parting using Collosus vT, whereas many of the foreigner streams and games I've seen they've cut them out in favour of disruptors - Probably because Korean Terrans split that much better against Disruptors so some more reliable (albeit nerfed) AoE damage in the form of the Collosus is required.
Will definitely get more of an idea about the state of the game when more tournaments are played and especially when Koreans start to show what they've figured out about LoTV
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PvZ looks bad, imbalanced towards zerg in macro games. And Protoss still has all the bullshit options. Now with a massively stronger, very strong offensive PO.
PvP has looked very fun.
PvT looks very fun when the game gets past the early game Protoss shannenigans. Though I wouldn't mind to see a PvT that isn't bio after 5years of it
TvT is kind of stupid. Tankdrops make engagements very stupid and are way too easy to perform offensively. You basically always find an angle from which you can do free damage and then it's checkmate because then the defender has to give up his defenders advantage and attack into a siegeline. Liberators make Mech very weak.
TvZ feels worse than ever. 8armor ultras are just stupid, nerfed larva efficiency massively weakens zergling/baneling play. The only upside is that for the moment the ravager finally gives zerg a second viable style.
ZvZ is bad. The early game is a shitfest, though admittetly always has been. The way you are forced to rush a third base during the ling/bling stage makes it so that half of the time you build 25drones and then you spam zerglings for 10mins. No brains, just zerglings. After that the ravager/roach wars with possible lurker transitions are a lot of fun though. Still a worse matchup than WoL ZvZ but at least if you get out of the early game it's better than HotS. Which doesn't mean the matchup is good, it just doesn't feel like the worst stage of diarrhea anymore under certain circumstances.
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is this the fourth or fifth time PartinG threw from 3-1
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On November 29 2015 08:30 Poopi wrote:
The second post is weird because HotS is easily the worst game of the Starcraft 2 Trilogy.
I think it is way to early to judge that.
We still have quite a few of the problems from HOTS that weren't fixed as well as several new potential issues. I can very much imagine LOTV being the worst. I can also imagine it being the best of course, so only time will tell.
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PvP: best matchup, no nerfs needed
PvT: looking good, use of adept prism blinkstalker push/allin should be monitored, but no data for action. Macro looks decent, no real meta, seen everything but carrier and BC used
PvZ: Lurker looks hart, maybe reduce hp, make borrow 3 sec + fast burrow upgrade (like widow mine burrow times). I wouldnt mind Rav to be either needing a hatch-lvl upgraded roach warren or lair. But not really data for that.
Tvt: Tank-Chess on Crack without the fun. Flying tanks look stupid, seem to be stupid, but no data.
TvZ: Looks broken. But only because Foreigner Terrans looked broken lvl bad. Maybe Ravanger too stronk against tank and lib, maybe not, we will see with more data.
ZvZ: Ravanger vs Ravanger is a decent upgrade to roach roach
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On November 29 2015 05:49 Thaniri wrote:
No terran no carin'
Nailed it perfectly.
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On November 29 2015 09:26 yoshi245 wrote:Nailed it perfectly.
When I see Terran play, it looks essentially like the same Terran I've been seeing for years. Liberators don't change the dynamic enough. Protoss and Zerg feel like they've actually been updated.
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your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction?
why not? what's better?
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On November 29 2015 09:31 Popkiller wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 09:26 yoshi245 wrote:On November 29 2015 05:49 Thaniri wrote:
No terran no carin' Nailed it perfectly. When I see Terran play, it looks essentially like the same Terran I've been seeing for years. Liberators don't change the dynamic enough. Protoss and Zerg feel like they've actually been updated.
Bio is all Terran has. Not surprising.
I think T will eventually evolve to making Sky Terran a standard thing. I can't imagine bio remaining as standard now with the immense splash damage and Ultras. Also feel once Zerg starts using Lurkers better, bio will start getting crushed.
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On November 29 2015 09:40 Charoisaur wrote:why not? what's better?
Vulture/Tank against Protoss or SK Terran against Lurker
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Northern Ireland25738 Posts
On November 29 2015 10:00 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 09:40 Charoisaur wrote:your idea that bio/mine vs LBM was the GOAT RTS interaction? why not? what's better? Vulture/Tank against Protoss or SK Terran against Lurker
Those two are pretty great. In SC2 terms I've always preferred Marine-Tank over Bio-Mine vs Ling/Bling/Muta
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On November 29 2015 07:53 Popkiller wrote:
Ravagers are cool, I like that a roach can morph into something that can attack air, and corrosive bile is effective but also requires skill to use.
Corrosive bile shouldn't work against buildings. It's the dumbest thing around and requires 0 skill. Against units that can move it's fine.
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All round more fun to watch. Faster style, forces more engagement, more strategies with good early game harass options. I just hope Blizz make swarm hosts and battlecruisers somewhat relevant.
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PvP : I really dislike disruptors wars, I hope the +shield damage is removed or toned down -for instance the splash is strongest in the center and then decreases. Pylon overcharge on the other hand allows fast expand builds even more than Nexus overcharge, which is enjoyable.
TvT : no opinion. The match-up was already quite disappointing at the end of HotS. LotV TvT didn't look great, but it didn't look worse.
ZvZ : same. Roach vs roach has evolved into roach ravager vs roach ravager, I guess it adds variety.
PvZ : looks great. I was sick of blink sentry and it feels refreshing atm. Maybe the fact that ravagers can kill structures feels a bit dumb though.
PvT : I think P early/mid game strength could be toned down a bit. Same for liberators. Otherwise the mu feels great, with the adept really making gateway based armies viable vs bio.
ZvT : I miss WoL.
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Its really a step up from Hots gameplay.
Something that has me excited is that Protoss adepts are so powerful in direct engagements, you can actually build a normal composition with them that challenges roach / hydra with mostly gateway units.
Its definitely a lot more diverse, and even terran got plenty of new strategies.
Zerg feels a little too strong at the moment. Disruptors are really carrying the matchup in PvZ
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EPT
