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On November 29 2015 05:46 Raindogs wrote:
Disruptors seem a bit too good, or is at least a bit too important in two of three matchups. On zergs part, engaging disruptors seem impossible at times, while in PvP it makes for pritty shitty games imo (who gets to build Tempests first?). It seems in general that even though the new mineral/gas-situation in isolation moves the game towards being more dynamic, the power of stationary units such as the lurkers and especially the disruptors actually increase the defenders advantage even more.
Do you feel that a larger defenders advantage is positive for the game or negative? Why?
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
I think what's really amazing is that we ended up with another Korean vs Korean finals. I fully expected this DH to feature a foreigner vs Korean finals or a foreigner vs foreigner finals. PartinG and Solar really practiced their asses off.
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Do you feel that a larger defenders advantage is positive for the game or negative? Why?
You could probably argue for both: being able to defend vs all-ins are of course important to make a dynamic well-functioning game etc. But in the case of the disruptors and the lurkers, but mostly in the case of the disruptor, it seems a bit too hard to "finish" games so to say. Even though micro etc. should be important, it is more or less impossible to engage into a protoss army with 4 disruptors off creep without Mutas, or so it has looked like during this tournament. I guess if you have 200 supply vs 120 it should be arguably pretty hard, close to impossible to hold. But it didnt look too difficult when you can spam disruptors balls which the zerg can not split against. The same goes for protoss: in the Parting vs Showtime series it was easy to see that even huge army advantages could not be properly taken advantage of.
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I feel DH really showed a few things.
1. The maps used were clearly imbalanced and there should never be "free" gold bases, but everyone already knew this.
2. Coinciding with point 1, Zergs were playing EXTREMELY greedy all tournament long...for seemingly no reason as they seemingly had a much stronger early/mid/late game. Like if a zerg builds a roach warren and shows a few ravagers, protoss/terran must respect it and the attack potential. For the most part zergs played as greedy as possible and tried to get to some specific tech/insane economy as if they were on a timer, when their opponents had the timer. For me a clear example of the safer zerg play was the one non-finals Solar vs Parting(i think) game where solar opened with the ling drop into a few roaches into mutas. Basically harassing parting early then forcing units to be built and disruptor tech with roaches (thus slowing this tech/infrastructure), then finally switching to Mutas to counter the disruptor path and harass.
3. Most protoss/terran pretty much decided to all-in or cheese zerg all tournament long because of points 1 and 2.
4. Pretty much all P match-ups revolve around the disruptor after early game. Most terrans were used to splitting MM from banelings, but zergs had no clue how to split units well or position lurkers well. Once zerg fix that I am curious how useful disruptors will be. Also a lot of zergs were poor at tech switching against disruptors. When the protoss has 5+ disruptors...why are you continuing to make roaches and hydras for 5-10 mins?
5. Ravagers are really good, but spamming 10 corrosive biles all at the same time, let alone onto 1 spot is not. Nor is walking your roaches ONTO your own corrosive biles, which happened quite a lot. Once zergs get better at ravager usage...well if the unit wasn't good enough already.
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It was interesting to watch DH and see all players with the sort of different plays and comments they make after games, etc. Commentators/interviewers doing a good job generally. Nice.
About the game, it is I think not as bad as I expected, but it is way too unstable. I like that there are actually not a bad variety of things happening in terms of different builds but the way things play out is most of the time very centered around a bunch of key explosive very-fast/surprise action, and there seems to be too much incentive for going for different types of "all-in" in the early game. Some little things come to take all the focus of the game, gather all/too much of the weight of the game into themselves. There is too much run away/run forward trying to get a crippling shot or dodge, can't seem to rely on any positionning or planning for more than a few seconds, small lucky events are too dominant. It feels a bit too much like a game of speed-poker. Things like Disruptors are really stupid... I would want to see more strategical games.
Players show they have a lot of potential for creativity as well as speed and accuracy. I hope they get more room to express that in the future with a game that is more stable and fair.
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I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow?
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ZvZ - more interesting due to ravager bile wars
TvT - I like the marine+flying tank wars, it makes a bad position slightly more forgiving giving a more dynamic TvT.
TvP - Disruptor and Liberator add postional gameplay and make this matchup way better to watch
PvZ - Not sure yet, seem some good stuff and some bad stuff
TvZ - Quite interesting, difficult to see what the meta will be.
PvP - I think it generally improved but I'm really really allergic to disruptor wars, I can't dig it.
Economy - I think it's a big succes, in most longer macro games players were struggling for bases, leading to more skirmishes and almost never fully maxed armies with big banks
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On November 29 2015 05:58 Seeker wrote:
I think what's really amazing is that we ended up with another Korean vs Korean finals. I fully expected this DH to feature a foreigner vs Korean finals or a foreigner vs foreigner finals. PartinG and Solar really practiced their asses off.
B-but Lilbow practiced so hard for LotV!
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I liked it.
Balance wise everything seems pretty fine to me, would be nice if Blizzard wouldn't interfere because of community whine.
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I'm also concerned with the Disruptor.
I feel like it is going to dominate PvP for many years and that is going to get pretty old fast. No one really liked Colossus Wars over and over in WOL, but at least there was a litany of 1 base timings that gave the matchup variety. We don't have those 1 base timings in LOTV to give the matchup variety.
Idra once said that the best way you could tell a unit was imbalanced was look at how it used in the mirror. I think that was true with the Colossus and is true with the Disruptor. Also, Protoss relies too heavily on the Disruptor in PvT and PvZ also.
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On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow?
Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed.
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My opinion on all matchups compared to HotS:
TvZ - Strange. Muta/ling/bane is almost dead because of liberator and ravager strength (early ravager pushes are pretty popular I guess). Not a bad MU though. Mech seems impotent, not sure how I like that.
TvP - The mid and late game is much more pleasant to look at IMO. The early game is probably just as infuriating as Terran to look at, maybe a bit more  Overall it's a better MU I think.
TvT - Hm. I think bio/tank vs bio/tank improved a bit. There's still positioning involved with tankivacs and doom drops are less good. Mech is pretty much completely dead in the matchup now unfortunately.
PvZ - Much better. Not much else to say. The everlasting blink/sentry vs roach/hydra fights were boring me to death.
PvP - It's pretty much still PvP. Either it ends in 5 minutes because of hilarious shenanigans, or the players do a dance of death. It's fine.
ZvZ - The early game IMO is worse because the early pool speedling/bane all-in seems really strong. Roach/ravager vs roach/ravager is more pleasant than pure roach wars though.
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On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed.
Yeah removing the range upgrade was an overreaction. Maybe make the skill shot land faster as well? Sometimes Zerg seems to have problems with fast moving units like Banshees so making the skill shot land faster would be a good first step to help the struggling Zergs.
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TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there.
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On November 29 2015 07:16 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2015 06:59 Charoisaur wrote:On November 29 2015 06:42 MockHamill wrote:
I am really impressed by the Zerg players especially in TvZ. That match up is so hard but somehow they still managed to win against all odds!
Terran seem too strong though. I really hope Blizzard think long and hard before improving the bunker upgrade. Maybe they could tone down Liberators and improve Ravagers somehow? Yeah the bunker upgrade buff would break the game. I hope ultras get a little more armor so zerg can somehow compete with terrans ground army. And how would you improve ravagers? The 13 range upgrade blizzard added was quite good, don't know why it got removed. Yeah removing the range upgrade was an overreaction. Maybe make the skill shot land faster as well? Sometimes Zerg seems to have problems with fast moving units like Banshees so making the skill shot land faster would be a good first step to help the struggling Zergs.
bigger AOE would also help. Maybe like a psi storm so you can't dodge as easily.
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United States15275 Posts
On November 29 2015 06:56 BronzeKnee wrote:
I'm also concerned with the Disruptor.
I feel like it is going to dominate PvP for many years and that is going to get pretty old fast. No one really liked Colossus Wars over and over in WOL, but at least there was a litany of 1 base timings that gave the matchup variety. We don't have those 1 base timings in LOTV to give the matchup variety.
Idra once said that the best way you could tell a unit was imbalanced was look at how it used in the mirror. I think that was true with the Colossus and is true with the Disruptor. Also, Protoss relies too heavily on the Disruptor in PvT and PvZ also.
My main concern with the disruptor is that in PvZ and PvP, it entirely dictates the rhythm of fights once you get 6-10. It doesn't require a positional commitment to fire and there's no benefit to keeping it separate from your army. It's hard for zerg to force blink stalker/disruptor into a disadvantageous position; splitting and better lurker positioning doesn't change that fact. In PvP, trading out stalkers for time seems like a legitimate stalling tactic as a good disruptor count prevents the opponent from chasing a numerically inferior army.
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France12901 Posts
On November 29 2015 05:58 Seeker wrote:
I think what's really amazing is that we ended up with another Korean vs Korean finals. I fully expected this DH to feature a foreigner vs Korean finals or a foreigner vs foreigner finals. PartinG and Solar really practiced their asses off.
It was bound to happen because there was at least one korean per race, so no matter the current balance / meta koreans would meet in the finals  .
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Balance aside, I am disappointed with the additions to Terran in LotV. I think Protoss and Zerg got new units and abilities to be excited about, but Terran did not.
Ravagers are cool, I like that a roach can morph into something that can attack air, and corrosive bile is effective but also requires skill to use. Lurkers are cool, they've always been cool.
Adepts are cool because of their teleport ability, as we saw PartinG use, dancing between bases. Disruptors seem cool just because it's exciting to see if they get a shot off. Protoss can even do pylon rushes, now.
For Terran... Liberators are powerful, but they're just flying siege tanks. Cyclones are a super vanilla unit that does single shots vs. ground and air, and if it locks on it can move while shooting. Ok.
My only hope is that the Ghost buffs make them get used more often, because Ghosts are one of the coolest units in the game. Seeing Ghost/Liberator vs Zerg was refreshing.
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On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there.
rofl yeah if you like to play turtling until deathball. Glad you think that's what a proper RTS should be.
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On November 29 2015 07:16 Charoisaur wrote:
TvZ - MUCH worse. bio mine vs ling bane muta was the greatest unit interaction in RTS history and now that's hardly played anymore.
TvP - better than post-mine buff tvp but worse than pre-mine-buff tvp. Chargelot archon templar vs bio was more fun imo.
PvZ - Worse. Instead of exciting blink sentry vs roach hydra play with constant fighting and positional battles we now have boring blink disruptor play where you pray to land a huge disruptor shot to win the game.
TvT - 1000 times worse. lol tankivacs ruin the matchup and mech is dead.
PvP - I always thought nothing is as bad as collossus wars but the disruptor wars showed me: it gets even worse.
ZvZ - Basically the same, just that you have to dodge ravager shots here and there.
Economy: terrible, comebacks are nearly impossible, once you fall behind you lose. Super stressful to play.
the 12 worker start heavily limits buildorders. 2 base timings or pressure builds weaker because you run out of ressources.
Overall LotV feels like a huge downgrade from HotS. a shame that we have to stick with this garbage for the next years.
Some people seem to like it but it's only because it's new. Once the meta stabilizes you'll wish that HotS would still be played.
Fortunately HotS Ladder is still going strong, if you want to play a proper RTS you can join me there.
I didnt know people loved deathballs
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EPT
