On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
Anyone who's watched more than a couple games of starcraft ever could have called this game between SoulKey and Squirtle pretty much immediately; it doesn't stop it being one of the very best games ever played.
I must say I found the polls a bit silly as well. I voted 6x3 stars and 1x 4 stars iirc but I'd rate the entire finals 4 stars for sure due to the perfect back and forth that made it super tense.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
Anyone who's watched more than a couple games of starcraft ever could have called this game between SoulKey and Squirtle pretty much immediately; it doesn't stop it being one of the very best games ever played.
after skimming through it I have a very vague memory that this game existed. it's not particulary good but in a way hilarious.
Why was everyone rooting for life? He is such a cheesy all in player (sos is too but atleast he is original) i personally think life is overated. Classic should have beat him, 1 mistake on moonligjt cost him
On November 09 2015 21:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: Why was everyone rooting for life? He is such a cheesy all in player (sos is too but atleast he is original) i personally think life is overated. Classic should have beat him, 1 mistake on moonligjt cost him
the line between "cheese" and early aggression to punish an opponent attempting to set up a high-economy opener is very blurry... especially when the opponent of life wants to have his high economy set up with zero static defense.
i'm not a big life fan, but i think its cool how he can make a small # of zerglings do so much more than your average GM player.
also, life's very early aggression sets up "broken plays" and unexpected situations and that's fun as well.. it reminds me of how C&C was played when it was in its prime.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
sOs is amazing! Perfect defence, perfect timings! Well deserved championship! All alone he brought his team to the final of Proleague, really good period for this guy.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
That's kinda what made the finals so intense. Other Protoss players would have cracked under the amount of pressure Life put up (see Classic). And other Zerg players would have rolled over and died in the face of how well sOs played.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
That's kinda what made the finals so intense. Other Protoss players would have cracked under the amount of pressure Life put up (see Classic). And other Zerg players would have rolled over and died in the face of how well sOs played.
Yeah and I'd rather remember HotS as a game of mind games and aggression than turtling mech :D
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great".
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
No there are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than if the actual games are entertaining.
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd)".. It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I get what you're saying. You're probably right, if we isolated those games from the setting (Blizzcon Finals) and took away the hype casting, they're not exactly 5 star games. More like super skilled players facing each other on ladder. But the hype surrounding the games, the casting, the atmosphere, the players' clutchness etc. turned this into an overall great series.
In my opinion, MMA vs DRG on Metalopolis early 2011 was the best game of all time (given the standards back then). I remember watching it at a chinese stream at 240/360P (so terrible quality) and the game blew my mind. It simply had everything:
1. It was an extremely important game (the deciding game between slayers and MVP as I recall).
2. Tons of build up hype. Both MMA and DRG were seen as the new stars of their respective races. DRGs was (perhaps) considered the best ZvT'er and MMA the best TvZ'er prior to this game, so everyone expected a high quality game.
3. It contained players who "innovated" their races and impacted the metagame. MMA with his doublepronged dropplay + move out with main army. Before MMA's dominance in GSTL, no terrans had actually been capable of attacking more than 2 locations at once. A couple of months later, MMA's playstyle became standard in TvZ at high level play.
DRG with his counterattack focussed zerg play. Before DRG dominated GSTL, terrans would never wall of the entrance to their natural (or build any bunkers), but due to his playstyle it became mandatory.
4. The game was back-and-fourth with a ton of action, multitasking and high-quality micro (given the standard in early 2011 ofc).
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
No there are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than if the actual games are entertaining.
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd)".. It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I get what you're saying. You're probably right, if we isolated those games from the setting (Blizzcon Finals) and took away the hype casting, they're not exactly 5 star games. More like super skilled players facing each other on ladder. But the hype surrounding the games, the casting, the atmosphere, the players' clutchness etc. turned this into an overall great series.
Yep, and I actually think that Artosis and Tastteless are the best casterduo in the esport-industry when they are on their A-game plus have a crowd. I don't see any casters in DOTA, Starcraft, lol or CS:GO that can match how well they can hype up a game.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
This finals was, from the finals i've watched so far, the most entertaining by far. Very very close all the way to the final few moments.
I don't really see the build order wins here, except maybe the tempest psyche-out, though i did see both players being mindgamed to hell and back and it was hugely entertaining.
EPT
I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle 
I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
