Coming into the final day only four players remained. The methodical Classic had earned his semifinals spot by besting herO 3-1 in the round of 8. The ever unpredictable Life had found his way into the semifinals after a great series against INnoVation. sOs was on track to clinch yet another $100k tournament demolishing Rain 3-0. While Rogue was the tournament dark horse after his unlikely win over Hydra.
The first semifinal played out between Life and Classic. Life found himself 1-0 up in the series after effortless deflecting Classic's Dark Templar strategy but traded two wins back to Classic with two unconventional (but very Life-esque) strategies. Classic destroyed Life's Ling/Bane attempt in game 2 and deflected Life's 6 pool in game 3. With his back against the wall, Life simply did more Life things to great success. In Game 4 a well timed Speedling attack forced itself through Classic's wall and notched up Life's second win. To close out the series Life struck at Classic with an exceptionally well executed Roach/Ling attack which struck at Classic's third before he was prepared.
Classic is overrun in game 5
The second semifinal was a far less exciting affair. Rogue came into this series as the clear underdog and did nothing but confirm the skill-gap between himself and sOs in their encounter. Rogue selected Bridgehead for the first map of the series and wasted no time in using the proxy hatch behind the natural rocks strategy to try and squeak out a win against sOs. sOs was able to capitalize on poor decision making from Rogue to successfully defend and go 1-0 up in the series. This proved to be the highlight of the series as sOs executed Rogue in games 2 and 3 before Rogue could get his strategies into action.
Rogue threw everything at sOs but came up wanting
This set up probably one of the most fitting finals to send off HotS. Life and sOs have put themselves on the map as two of the most prolific champions during this chapter of SC2s life. Life as a player who repeatedly puts himself back on the tournament radar winning games in an impossible manner. While it's cheesy, the slogan 'Life finds a way' really does summarize his career. Meanwhile $o$ has been an enigmatic figure only showing up to tournaments boasting a $100k first place. But moreover, his creative playstyle is one which fully embraces the cheesy aspects of the Protoss race and have become a divisive figure because of it.
From the beginning, the Grand Finals was a special performance that only sOs and Life could be responsible for. While none of the games individually went the distance, the action hardly ceased and each map was a spectacle that kept the audience on the edge of their seats in one of the closest series of the year. sOs, having brought his usual bag of tricks into the finals, pulled off a successful zealot + cannon rush and followed up with a proxy stargate and gateway all-in to take an early lead 1-0. Not to be outdone, Life opened 9 pool in game 2 to level the series 1-1 and 14/14 in game 3, transitioning into a fast burrow roach max with two roach warrens in the former game. Game 3 didn't go his way and sOs reclaimed the lead 2-1, but fortunately caught sOs trying to play a macro game in game 4 and tied the series.
A clutch DT hatch snipe gave sOs a shot at winning game 2
The score was level at 2-2 a piece. With the end of HotS and a world championship depending on the last three games, sOs decided to open with tempests on Dash and Terminal. This had the effect of forcing Life into an uncomfortable spot, as he was forced to deviate from his normal composition of low-tech units to get corrupters. This gave sOs an advantage going into the mid-game, where he patiently wore his opponent down with blink stalkers.
Tempests were key in putting early pressure on Life
sOs then attempted to go in an entirely different direction with the infamous soul train, but Life sniffed it out and forced a Game 7.
Life put everything on the line with a baneling bust in game 7
On Iron Fortress, Life attempted to conclude the series with a risky baneling bust, and while he successfully broke the primary defenses, sOs held on with remarkable tenacity, sacrificing his natural and walling his main completely in order to save as much as possible. From there, he eventually secured his expansion again and defeated Life with a blink stalker attack before he could recover economically.
Your champion!
The sOs-Life final was the perfect send off for HotS and the perfect setting for the beginning of a new chapter in Starcraft's life. While many things will change in Legacy, the passion and excitement that we saw during these grand finals will surely carry over and give Starcraft it's second wind. But before then, we have this moment to celebrate what has been and all the joy that HotS has brought up. Congratulations to sOs, commiserations to Life. You both showed why Starcraft is the beautiful game.
I'm still shocked that Life gambled that hard in the last game... But it was so even idk.
I think I would still rank him as the greatest Hots player. Then Taeja, then sOs, then tie between Inno, Parting, and herO... Then Maru, Rain, soO, Classic.... then Byul, Polt, Zest, Bomber
A good final with all the shenanigans. It's not a "good" game per se, but people rate highly of games where one clutch decision wins it all like that MS in mvp vs squirtle or dt in rain vs sOs. To me at least, that's no fun. Fun is when two players exchange blows and clutch decisions and create "sparks" that make matches memorable and interesting. Also hats off to sOs and life to throw out what they're good and known for in game 7 than go standard. It wasn't a game to win it all; to them, it was just another sc2 game. It was a unique experience and a fresh page in the book of sc2
On November 08 2015 15:35 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: I'm still shocked that Life gambled that hard in the last game... But it was so even idk.
I think I would still rank him as the greatest Hots player. Then Taeja, then sOs, then tie between Inno, Parting, and herO... Then Maru, Rain, soO, Classic.... then Byul, Polt, Zest, Bomber
Life is always ready to gamble when it matters the most. It's one of his strengths as a player, and something that almost every top pro has to some extent.
I am glad I watched the series, it was awesome, at some point I wanted Life to win because the last champion in HotS but thinking about sOs is like the LotV cinematic, the Protoss recover their glory and claimed their land XD
Really incredible series, and lot of crazy things, like 2 base Tempest.. also even if people blame sOs for playing with "cheese" or things like that, I loved how both players showed us not only macro but also rushes and pushes constantly, then transitioning.
I would have hated a lot if the games seemed "Ok, let's macro wtihout attack and then see what happens" or "I will All In and GG if it doesnt work"
Every thing got a good transition, the developt of the matchs was so good that I simply loved the whole series. It reminded me the old good things SC2 have.
I think I would still rank him as the greatest Hots player. Then Taeja, then sOs, then tie between Inno, Parting, and herO... Then Maru, Rain, soO, Classic.... then Byul, Polt, Zest, Bomber
Taeja ? Are you serious ? In terms of terran Innovation is clearly ahead, 2 GSL win, one GSL final versus Homestory cup... Maru is a lot better too.
Same with Parting. Classic is clearly ahead for me, 2 stealeagues and a very stacked IEM, 2 Blizzcon semis, great performance in Proleague.
It's always hard to make this ranking because life has done very bad for example in team league and Proleague is very important in Korea.
It also depends how you value consistency. Maru is a monster in this regard, SOS and Life have absmyssal low and big breakout performance.
I think TL staff will do a power rank of the best HOTS player we will see (if Taeja is ahead of Inno/Maru joke of the year).
I think I would still rank him as the greatest Hots player. Then Taeja, then sOs, then tie between Inno, Parting, and herO... Then Maru, Rain, soO, Classic.... then Byul, Polt, Zest, Bomber
Taeja ? Are you serious ? In terms of terran Innovation is clearly ahead, 2 GSL win, one GSL final versus Homestory cup... Maru is a lot better too.
Same with Parting. Classic is clearly ahead for me, 2 stealeagues and a very stacked IEM, 2 Blizzcon semis, great performance in Proleague.
It's always hard to make this ranking because life has done very bad for example in team league and Proleague is very important in Korea.
It also depends how you value consistency. Maru is a monster in this regard, SOS and Life have absmyssal low and big breakout performance.
I think TL staff will do a power rank of the best HOTS player we will see (if Taeja is ahead of Inno/Maru joke of the year).
Yeah Taeja would be unlikely to breach the top 5 HotS players because he was non-existent this year. He could be ahead of maru, but inno has been more consistent over the entirety of HotS and must be ahead of Taeja. Life has been the best overall, for sure, and sOs has to rank somewhere.
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Life must be really happy that KT did not send Zest there
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Life must be really happy that KT did not send Zest there
Proleague > Individuals, the KeSPA players have it in their blood, the others learn it the hard way.
Oh my god I had work right as the Grand Final started RIP but I got back and I just watching finished the replay DAMN THE STUPID TWITCH PREVIEW THUMBNAIL FUNCTION FOR SPOILING THE FIRST 6 GAMES
In the end, my bracket fell completely to shit, except for one guy, my guy, the absolute madman sOs
$♥$ he actually did it, the absolute madman AGAIN
And in one of the top series in the HotS era. A fitting way to end the HotS era, really. Two of some of the most infamous "attackers" (or to put it more cynically, cheesers), with big arsenals full of stupid shit, all-in in the biggest tournament of the year, and one of the biggest of this expansion.
sOs needed a miracle just to get in to Blizzcon after a bad first 2 seasons and dual Ro16 exits in both Starleagues in Season 3. Time was running out, but he got that miracle when Zest was pulled from the MSI MGA for Proleague, and sOs took his chance and stepped in for him. With a victory at MSI MGA and a semifinal finish at DreamHack Stockholm, sOs had luckily dodged the #16 and #15 spots and dodged dates with either herO+INnoVation/Life, or Maru.
This wasn't a case of two prizefighters playing it safe, feeling each other out gradually in the beginning before throwing their standard punches. This was like a duel between street fighters, of Krav Maga masters, with sucker-punches right out of the gate(way), throwing their dirtiest nut-shots, eye-gouges and charley-horses, right to the end. Things got stupid right in the beginning with the serial escalation of 11gate Zealot into Cannon rush into proxy Oracle at the Cannon Rush location into a final gateway all-in for sOs to take Game 1. Countless times I saw some fearful deja vu: sOs pulling out the Tempests again (shoutout to #Rotti), Lifeling drama on Moonlight Madness, the Protoss trying to take a third with a completely inadequate army on Bridgehead, losing both, and trying a DT attack that in the end was too little, too late. It all came down to Game 7, #esportsfanfiction, on a Zerg-favored map, the map with the Zerg symbol right in the middle, Iron Fortress. Despite having never trailed in the series, the odds were suddenly stacked against sOs.
Game 7. When I saw the 14/14 I got horrible flashbacks of the GSL 2015 Season 1 Final, Game 7, where Life clutched it out and 10pooled out PartinG. A cheese? In Game 7? PvZ on Iron Fortress again?
But! Just in this tournament alone we have seen sOs pull Houdini move after Houdini move, making sick comebacks against every opponent he faced, if not in the series overall, in the individual games. Stupid shit vs. stupid shit, 14/14 colliding with the dual-probe-scout Cannon Rush. I don't really have anything more to say about this game; I lost my fucking mind when I saw the Stargate, when another $100,000 was in sight for sOs, even though in the end, it was the Blink attack that finished off the tournament.
Now, out of all the sports bandwagons I have jumped on: - 2008: Red Wings, Patriots, Celtics, Chelsea FC, Germany in football, Sweden in hockey, Roger Federer - 2014 November: sOs Another one has delivered me a major, major championship.
PASSHUN OVERFLOWING SORRY FOR THE BLOG AHHHHHHHHHHHH WRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Maybe me and my buddie are grumpy but IMO the finals didn't produce the best and highest level of sc2 I've seen. The last game being a good example. Life let sOs have the watch tower and basically allowed sOs to see all the lings moving across the map. I feel like that is a mistake a Diamond or Masters Zerg makes once or twice, but not the best Zerg in the world.
I also felt that Life really messed up in the game with Tempest and he had that game won but he moved into the choke instead of staying defensive and threw it.
In HotS we never had a champion of the level of MVP, i hope that changes in LotV.
Excellent finals. Wasn't the "highest level" of games, but they were still incredibly entertaining. Very back and forth, very tense, and just absolutely oozing with storyline.
That said, what's everyone's opinions on the best one or two series from this weekend? I didn't have a chance to watch many of them due to the time difference.
The games were great , yes cheered for Life but I cheered for $o$ too, kinda cheered for both of them. Who knows maybe next time we`ll have evan a terran in the finals (tsk tsk D. Kim) but overall awesome event.
Impressively dominant performance from sOs, getting two BlizzCon titles in HotS is truly an impressive feat. Also, he probably has to give some $$$ to Zest and KT for forfeiting MSI (; And am I the only one who really dislike that very dark blue background in the OP?
On November 08 2015 19:44 Mikku wrote: $O$ is, no doubt, the greediest protoss player ever ^^
LOL yea he really deserves his nickname : $O$
Happy for him, I am a terran player and I would have loved seeing Maru first or Innovation winning the final, but $o$ is my favorite protoss player because so agressive and doesn't play defensive playstyle into deathball. Life is my favorite zerg player, I am sad for him, but really nice final
Congratz for both players, they gave us an awesome final
I wanted Life to win it all, but 2nd place is nothing to be ashamed of. And to be fair, sOs had some nice tricks up his sleeve. That Tempest rush was awesome, even though it hurt my sensible Zerg heart ._.
Oh and Artosis did an amazing job. Pretty much the best finals one could have hoped for.
Great toe to toe finals with two fantastic players! Congratulations to both of them. It's a pity that this was the last grand final of HoTS though, I think the game is in a pretty good spot right now and we got some great players who have it all figured out, allowing their true skill to shine. I am a little concerned for LotV, as for now it doesn't really seen that interesting to me. Well, time will show. It was good knowing you, Heart of the Swarm - you took a fine chunk of my Life.
loved the final. best finals i ever saw in star craft history i hoped life would win but sos did play awesome. shame that maru didnt overcome his tvz weakness beside rogue out-mindgamed him pretty well. a maru vs sos semi final would have been awesome. otherwise this tournament played out pretty cool!
Such an entertaining series, had a lot of fun watching it. Kinda wished the last baneling bust worked to reinforce Life's legacy but hey, sOs is one hell of a player. Can't wait for LotV and next year Blizzcon !
I had a blast watching the finals - even though I wanted Life to win, I'm happy for sOs. In fact I had so much fun that now I'm feeling the sort of post-event blues that usually only hits me after attending a live event o.O" I dunno what to do with myself lol xD
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
It would be a nice time for Life to maintain his greatness by a win but he's still 18 and has lots of time in front of him - and Global Finals gold+silver and a GSL win and 4 premier weekend tournament wins (and some other placements) is a great HotS career by itself.
And I can't really be sad after such amazing finals.
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
sOs would've probably pushed harder for a win at Dreamhack in that case then
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
sOs would've probably pushed harder for a win at Dreamhack in that case then
I mean, he probably pushed as hard as he could to win anyway (he just has a hard time with Solar sometimes). By the way, in that case he would have most likely faced Maru in the Ro16.
Life lost to blink stalker sentry, not to SOS. in fact I've never actually seen a high level PvZ where blink stalker sentry was done against zerg and it didn't win. I'm not saying anything is imba. but I have never actually seen that strategy lose a single game against anything zerg does. My own observation.
let's be real with the fact that PvZ is an imbalanced matchup since the SH change. however i don't want to take away anything from sOs's deserved win. both these players are capable of transcending their race and it showed in this series.
The other players should be glad that all the tournaments don't all offer 100k $ to the first place, otherwise sOs wouldl et us little chance to get any trophies.
It was one of the best finals ever (that didn't include a terran).
1. Balls of steel 2. Incredible decision making under pressure 3. One of the best micros in the world 4. Creativity, constant innovation, finding ways others don't see 5. Excellent game read based on incomplete information 6. Great unit knowledge, ability to always build the correct army composition 7. Mindgames, forcing the opponent into disadvantageous situations 8. Unique ability to win lost games 9. Bringing to the crowds amazing entertaining series full of surprising actions
That is sOs.
sOs is a beast. sOs is a god. sOs is a mastermind. sOs is a mad scientist. sOs is a million dollar man. sOs is the true HotS champion.
Although many silly people call him a cheeser, his true strength is in the mid game. He never plays style "I will cheese and if it doesn't work, I gg." In his case, a cheese is always a part of a grand plan. He always knows the next step. His amazing ability to use cheese against a cheese. To use it to get out of lost situations.
His warp in of DTs in the practically lost game against Rain in the RO8. His colossus drop against Zest in the KT reverse all kill when being far behind in army. His warp in of zealots into the base of Stats in the almost lost game in the same reverse all kill. These are the true fruits of a mastermind.
The yesterday's final was one of the greatest series, I have ever seen. Not a single stupid one hour game, where two passive opponents build two huge armies that will clash in one final battle, where - as a surprise - one of them wins. It was a clash of two aggressive creative players. Constant action, constant harass. Showing no fear in a 100.000$ situation. The best possible end of the HotS era.
I do not look forward to the early months of LotV. One race will dominate and there will be a lot of balancing changes necessary. Hopefully, after some time, it will become a great balanced game as HotS was. I wish, sOs could transfer his skills into LotV and be successful again. Also because his main strengths are not necessarily game dependent. I wish, MC could make a comeback after I saw his 1vs2 awesome play. I wish, JD could make a return to the top again. Well, never mind.
Dear sOs, your "balls of steel" and "no fear" mentality are an inspiration for millions of your fans around the world. It was a beautiful and unique evening yesterday. And for us, all million dollar man's fans, it was unforgettable. Thank you.
Great post Diabolique, sOs is definately a unique and cool player! There is always bound to be some racial bias, but I hope that people can see that he isn't just another toss cheeser, or something stupid like that
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
sOs would've probably pushed harder for a win at Dreamhack in that case then
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
sOs would've probably pushed harder for a win at Dreamhack in that case then
I'm sure he played at 40% there, right?
I do not want to step into another fight with YOU, I had already a fight with Zealously about that, but to answer your question: Yes, he did.
On November 08 2015 18:20 digmouse wrote: Retrospectively, if sOs did not replace Zest at MSI he won't be at BlizzCon in the first place so he probably have to buy Zest a good meal lol.
Drew INno in Ro16 as well. INno wouldve won MSI or Zest gets more points and he could've gone far with the right bracket
Hmm, might've been INno vs Lilbow in Ro16 if he had won MSI
sOs would've probably pushed harder for a win at Dreamhack in that case then
I'm sure he played at 40% there, right?
I do not want to step into another fight with YOU, I had already a fight with Zealously about that, but to answer your question: Yes, he did.
You might want to stop accusing your favourite player of losing on purpose to skew the WCS ranking.
Awesome series. It was action packed and never a dull moment. It actually reminded me of watching lotv streams where the gameplay is similarly action packed all game long. Makes me look forward to lotv even more.
On November 09 2015 01:08 Lgnarrow wrote: I would put Life before Mvp in the list of the greatest sc2 players ever after this run. Just my personal opinion
inb4 he bopped a foreigner, chokovation, faceless chintoss, and lost in final.
but yes i feel the same. he beat the strongest player in the tournament and almost two top tier protoss at a time when zerg is really weak. just like last year
Perfect final. I was on the edge of my seat every game at some point. I couldn't be happier game and storyline wise, truly the perfect finish for hots.
It all started with Zest gave sOs a chance to go to MSI for the sake of KT's proleague. He then won MSI, got enough points to blizzcon, came back, beat Zest twice, reverse all-kill KT to send them home, went to blizzcon, took away the champion from Life. This is sOs. You gave him champions, he fucks your whole team.
Thanks to both players for making it such a close final. Even knowing the final result while viewing the VOD, I didn't know who won which maps until game 5 was over.
Tastosis was good overall. I especially liked their reaction to that zergling rally Life made, a possible tell for sOs to stop that backdoor aggression.
On November 09 2015 02:17 Taro134 wrote: It all started with Zest gave sOs a chance to go to MSI for the sake of KT's proleague. He then won MSI, got enough points to blizzcon, came back, beat Zest twice, reverse all-kill KT to send them home, went to blizzcon, took away the champion from Life. This is sOs. You gave him champions, he fucks your whole team.
On November 09 2015 03:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Actually, it just hit me how salty KT has to be now, as they granted sOs his bats.
I think they're more salty he reverse all-killed them (I'm repeating myself but Life over TY or Stats would have been better). If they'd let Zest go to MSI and lost, they would have missed the playoffs. That would have been much worse.
Oh Teamliquid...back to frontpage headline spoilers of major tournaments. Lazy. Unprofessional. Maybe someday the people who run this site will learn to use their 'hide spoilers' function.
On November 09 2015 03:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Actually, it just hit me how salty KT has to be now, as they granted sOs his bats.
I think they're more salty he reverse all-killed them (I'm repeating myself but Life over TY or Stats would have been better). If they'd let Zest go to MSI and lost, they would have missed the playoffs. That would have been much worse.
So sOs came in at #16 in the recent "top 15 of all time" series...where does he rank now? He has such a strange and top-heavy career, with his whole record basically made up of three $100k championships. (Plus a Hot6ix cup that I even forgot about until I looked at his Liquipedia page.)
On November 09 2015 03:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Actually, it just hit me how salty KT has to be now, as they granted sOs his bats.
I think they're more salty he reverse all-killed them (I'm repeating myself but Life over TY or Stats would have been better). If they'd let Zest go to MSI and lost, they would have missed the playoffs. That would have been much worse.
Armani what a threat!
If sod's law were to take effect Armani will now knock Zest out of something this year for good measure
On November 09 2015 03:45 chiasmus wrote: So sOs came in at #16 in the recent "top 15 of all time" series...where does he rank now? He has such a strange and top-heavy career, with his whole record basically made up of three $100k championships. (Plus a Hot6ix cup that I even forgot about until I looked at his Liquipedia page.)
How could you forget his 4-1 bopping of MarineKing? That had drama, salt and humiliation close to the level of his slaughters of herO and Jaedong.
I just realized sOs has embarrassed a player from each race 4-1 in 3 different tournament finals wins that win against Life is now a pretty good "capstone" to his resume, as Life didn't just roll over and die like the other 3
On November 09 2015 03:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Actually, it just hit me how salty KT has to be now, as they granted sOs his bats.
I think they're more salty he reverse all-killed them (I'm repeating myself but Life over TY or Stats would have been better). If they'd let Zest go to MSI and lost, they would have missed the playoffs. That would have been much worse.
Armani what a threat!
Well, they pulled out Zest of MSI before the lineup was announced. The matchup could have been worse. And lord knows why Stork fielded a Zerg on Echo (probably not to get Zest I imagine).
Plus even with a win they could have missed the playoffs if SBENU finished ahead of them in round 4 and made a good run in the round 4 playoffs. The team stands above all else in KeSPA.
And before you even start, no, that didn't cost TY his Blizzcon chances, even if Zest had gone to MSI TY would have been out of the top 16 unless he won Starleague or made the finals of Dreamhack (which would have required him to miss a potential day 3 of Jin Air vs KT).
On November 09 2015 03:38 MrRee wrote: Oh Teamliquid...back to frontpage headline spoilers of major tournaments. Lazy. Unprofessional. Maybe someday the people who run this site will learn to use their 'hide spoilers' function.
It's been this way for some time, and it isn't accidental
People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
Is there an estimated time on when the replays will be available? My brother insists that Life could have won map 7 against $$$ if he had attacked the Pylon wall on the main ramp, and I want to prove him wrong.
On November 09 2015 05:32 Destructicon wrote: Despite being terran I couldn't be happier for sOs' win. The mind games, the builds, pure genius.
I dunno, the mind games I wasn't that impressed with, but his execution and crisis management was unusually superb throughout the entire week. On ordinary days he would have probably lost to Life and PartinG with how the games were playing out.
3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Yes, it's still a video game. But it's fine to treat it like any other sport or movie.
On November 09 2015 03:38 MrRee wrote: Oh Teamliquid...back to frontpage headline spoilers of major tournaments. Lazy. Unprofessional. Maybe someday the people who run this site will learn to use their 'hide spoilers' function.
It's been this way for some time, and it isn't accidental
On November 09 2015 03:38 MrRee wrote: Oh Teamliquid...back to frontpage headline spoilers of major tournaments. Lazy. Unprofessional. Maybe someday the people who run this site will learn to use their 'hide spoilers' function.
It's been this way for some time, and it isn't accidental
wait...what?! Why on earth would you do that?
I didnt know about it, but every professional sports website doesn't have it. I guess you could say it was to become more professional.
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Oh I know exactly what you mean, I've had more beautiful heartwarming moments of passion and joy watching SC2 then in many other activities.
On November 09 2015 02:17 Taro134 wrote: It all started with Zest gave sOs a chance to go to MSI for the sake of KT's proleague. He then won MSI, got enough points to blizzcon, came back, beat Zest twice, reverse all-kill KT to send them home, went to blizzcon, took away the champion from Life. This is sOs. You gave him champions, he fucks your whole team.
I want to print this post and put it on my wall. Beatiful.
sOs transcends protoss. I'm z, generally been and is a huge nestea / Life fan, but before this tournament I was like "Fuck, my heart says sOs". Dreamfinals for me, and a perfect ending to HOTS. My heart was racing "Will the last fucking game end with a 1 base bling all in??????" and sOs proceeds to clutch the hell out of the game.
On November 09 2015 03:38 MrRee wrote: Oh Teamliquid...back to frontpage headline spoilers of major tournaments. Lazy. Unprofessional. Maybe someday the people who run this site will learn to use their 'hide spoilers' function.
It's been this way for some time, and it isn't accidental
wait...what?! Why on earth would you do that?
I didnt know about it, but every professional sports website doesn't have it. I guess you could say it was to become more professional.
Well, I wholeheartedly have to disagree with this decision. TL isn't just another sports website. To me, it is the one and only major community page for sc2. I come here for streams, forums, blogs and, amongst those other things, for news. However, I have very limited time to spend on sc2 because of my job and Rl obligations. I can't watch many tournaments and when, once in a while, I find time to do so, it almost never is live in (also, keep in mind that TL has its audience spread over several time zones). Not being spoiler free anymore, TL is really making things hard for me and it definitely has ruined this wcs experience for me. Of course, that's just my situation and opinion, yet maybe there are others who feel that way too.
On November 09 2015 05:56 stuchiu wrote: video games can be as moving as any other medium or competition
In my family and community, I find it hard sometimes to convey the fact that it's actually possible to get hyped and really excited for people pressing buttons and clicking on a mouse at a computer. I see this is changing with time though and I am filled with hope when I look at an event at blizzcon and the wonders it can produce (like that final of SoS vs Life) For the video game label topic, I like to call it a «strategy game played on PC» when I present the game to people who don't know about it (with a smile though), so that the common bias against video games doesn't show up immediately.
On November 09 2015 03:24 lolfail9001 wrote: Actually, it just hit me how salty KT has to be now, as they granted sOs his bats.
I think they're more salty he reverse all-killed them (I'm repeating myself but Life over TY or Stats would have been better). If they'd let Zest go to MSI and lost, they would have missed the playoffs. That would have been much worse.
I meant metaphorical bats. Getting all-killed is one of those, since we all know sOs is hot streak playa.
Pretty boring series, and overall Blizzcon was pretty uninteresting. No idea why people thought it was great... or I guess I do. The casters were great at hyping up the games so (dumb) people get deceived into thinking the actual games were anything beyond mediocre.
On November 09 2015 08:37 Hider wrote: Pretty boring series, and overall Blizzcon was pretty uninteresting. No idea why people thought it was great... or I guess I do. The casters were great at hyping up the games so (dumb) people get deceived into thinking the actual games were anything beyond mediocre.
Calling people dumb for not sharing your opinion is absurd
On November 09 2015 08:37 Hider wrote: Pretty boring series, and overall Blizzcon was pretty uninteresting. No idea why people thought it was great... or I guess I do. The casters were great at hyping up the games so (dumb) people get deceived into thinking the actual games were anything beyond mediocre.
Actually, me and my friends watching the final from my living room were more busy commentating/analyzing the games ourselves than actually listening to what Tastosis had to say (active listening I guess you could call it); we were very well scholared plat to master level players and we greatly enjoyed and were thrilled by the final games.
While I see where you're coming from (Reading norwegian newspapers before I've had a chance to watch UFC that went live in the middle of the night) it's pretty simple to avoid on tl. www.teamliquid.net/forum and you're covered in regards to forums&blogs&streams&events. Unless you're living under a rock and don't pay attention to events/news you know pretty much all the major tournaments that you will definitely watch and when to avoid news section.
There's surely plenty of good reasons for not having the spoiler part, likely more pros than cons over having it, from a TL or "content driven website" perspective. If I had "hide spoiler" on for example, I wouldn't read about tournaments I did in fact miss or not care about but that I would've read the news article about. This would be lost traffic on TL's part, and I would've lost a possibly interesting news article I would otherwise miss.
However TL, I've wondered how come you can't write an ambigious header like "WCS 2015 Champion crowned!" with a pixelated pic and trophy. Websites use shitty clickbait strategies all the time, so this must be something statistics support. I hate the "click to find out" strategy, but in this case it makes 100% sense as it's a win-win thing? You convey the message with a carrot being the answer, people who doesn't want to get spoiled doesn't.
Is the value of selling that sOs won higher than the value of clickbait?
On November 09 2015 01:08 Lgnarrow wrote: I would put Life before Mvp in the list of the greatest sc2 players ever after this run. Just my personal opinion
inb4 he bopped a foreigner, chokovation, faceless chintoss, and lost in final.
but yes i feel the same. he beat the strongest player in the tournament and almost two top tier protoss at a time when zerg is really weak. just like last year
It absolutely boggles my mind how much such a talented player gets hated on by a substantial portion of this community after he wins his third $100k HotS tourney. The guy was an absolute beast in PL basically carrying his team (as JAGW's Protoss ace) near the end of the year.
sOs, I hope you keep doing and playing the way you do as this game transitions into a new chapter. Not only is your execution at the top of the heap, but your understanding of the game and all it's little nuances allow you to create master plans that often times are several steps ahead of the opponent. Bravo sOs, bravo!
On November 09 2015 08:47 flipstar wrote: While I see where you're coming from (Reading norwegian newspapers before I've had a chance to watch UFC that went live in the middle of the night) it's pretty simple to avoid on tl. www.teamliquid.net/forum and you're covered in regards to forums&blogs&streams&events. Unless you're living under a rock and don't pay attention to events/news you know pretty much all the major tournaments that you will definitely watch and when to avoid news section.
There's surely plenty of good reasons for not having the spoiler part, likely more pros than cons over having it, from a TL or "content driven website" perspective. If I had "hide spoiler" on for example, I wouldn't read about tournaments I did in fact miss or not care about but that I would've read the news article about. This would be lost traffic on TL's part, and I would've lost a possibly interesting news article I would otherwise miss.
However TL, I've wondered how come you can't write an ambigious header like "WCS 2015 Champion crowned!" with a pixelated pic and trophy. Websites use shitty clickbait strategies all the time, so this must be something statistics support. I hate the "click to find out" strategy, but in this case it makes 100% sense as it's a win-win thing? You convey the message with a carrot being the answer, people who doesn't want to get spoiled doesn't.
Is the value of selling that sOs won higher than the value of clickbait?
I deleted TL from my bookmarks toolbar until I had watched through the blizzcon vods. I too appreciated the no-spoilers feature.
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Where do you live, I want friends who watch Starcraft
On November 09 2015 08:37 Hider wrote: Pretty boring series, and overall Blizzcon was pretty uninteresting. No idea why people thought it was great... or I guess I do. The casters were great at hyping up the games so (dumb) people get deceived into thinking the actual games were anything beyond mediocre.
Calling people dumb for not sharing your opinion is absurd
It is very polite of him to call people, who liked the final, as "dumb". I consider people like him, who watched a boring series on an uninteresting tournament, as idiots. And that is not very polite.
Can you imagine a person, who is watching players, he does not like, on a tournament, he does not like, watching game, he does not like at all, not being an idiot? And I would bet, he watched it till the bitter end. This is the kind of people, who did not invent the "switch off" button yet and just want to share with the whole world, how miserable their own life is.
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Where do you live, I want friends who watch Starcraft
I live in downton Montreal, Canada. I actively look for more people willing to watch and share near me through twitch channels whenever I get the chance. If you're not too far away/are willing to come I'll be more happy to meet new SC lovers faces for next blizzcon or just another big SC event to come :D
On November 09 2015 09:54 cheekymonkey wrote: I am absolutely shocked at the level of life's play, compared to his recent performances. Probably faking it for blizzcon.
Really? I'm rather shocked how many toptier protoss he has beaten lately with strategies that have been rather easily deflected for years. Also how INnoVation after ezpz-ing Life in g1 with a macro build switched gears and went for the oldest 2base nonesense around.
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Where do you live, I want friends who watch Starcraft
I live in downton Montreal, Canada. I actively look for more people willing to watch and share near me through twitch channels whenever I get the chance. If you're not too far away/are willing to come I'll be more happy to meet new SC lovers faces for next blizzcon or just another big SC event to come :D
On November 09 2015 05:54 Trizztein wrote: 3 of my friends (including someone I randomly met on twitch watching archon mode tournament and whom is now a great friend of mine) came over at my place to watch the semis and finals on my 55 inch TV screen in hi-res. The four of us rising from our chairs and shouting with excitement when Life sniped that warp-prism on that sixth map is a souvenir that will stay engraved in my hearth for the rest of my life. I never thought as a kid (I am now 26) that watching a game of a genre I've been in love with for such a long time could end-up forging such a happy reunion of people sharing a passion for a video game.
Or can we even say «video game» at that point?
Where do you live, I want friends who watch Starcraft
I live in downton Montreal, Canada. I actively look for more people willing to watch and share near me through twitch channels whenever I get the chance. If you're not too far away/are willing to come I'll be more happy to meet new SC lovers faces for next blizzcon or just another big SC event to come :D
On November 09 2015 08:47 flipstar wrote: While I see where you're coming from (Reading norwegian newspapers before I've had a chance to watch UFC that went live in the middle of the night) it's pretty simple to avoid on tl. www.teamliquid.net/forum and you're covered in regards to forums&blogs&streams&events. Unless you're living under a rock and don't pay attention to events/news you know pretty much all the major tournaments that you will definitely watch and when to avoid news section.
There's surely plenty of good reasons for not having the spoiler part, likely more pros than cons over having it, from a TL or "content driven website" perspective. If I had "hide spoiler" on for example, I wouldn't read about tournaments I did in fact miss or not care about but that I would've read the news article about. This would be lost traffic on TL's part, and I would've lost a possibly interesting news article I would otherwise miss.
However TL, I've wondered how come you can't write an ambigious header like "WCS 2015 Champion crowned!" with a pixelated pic and trophy. Websites use shitty clickbait strategies all the time, so this must be something statistics support. I hate the "click to find out" strategy, but in this case it makes 100% sense as it's a win-win thing? You convey the message with a carrot being the answer, people who doesn't want to get spoiled doesn't.
Is the value of selling that sOs won higher than the value of clickbait?
Exactly.. Not everyone has a chance to watch it live, and to see it on the front page was so disappointing to see it spoiled so in your face, just to reach the VODs. I will have to be more careful for the future.
I thought the series was over during the Soul Train push of game 6. I was claiming it for sOs until his forces got wiped after the warp prism snipe. From that point up until the banes started bursting through his natural wall in game 7, I thought I'd called it way too early. It was so insanely tense watching the lings flood in. After watching him finally hold and stabilise, I was even more ecstatic when he pushed across the map and lay siege to Life's 3rd before the final battle at his natural. What an awesome end to an amazing series. I had so much fun watching. Cheers boys!
On November 09 2015 08:47 flipstar wrote: While I see where you're coming from (Reading norwegian newspapers before I've had a chance to watch UFC that went live in the middle of the night) it's pretty simple to avoid on tl. www.teamliquid.net/forum and you're covered in regards to forums&blogs&streams&events. Unless you're living under a rock and don't pay attention to events/news you know pretty much all the major tournaments that you will definitely watch and when to avoid news section.
There's surely plenty of good reasons for not having the spoiler part, likely more pros than cons over having it, from a TL or "content driven website" perspective. If I had "hide spoiler" on for example, I wouldn't read about tournaments I did in fact miss or not care about but that I would've read the news article about. This would be lost traffic on TL's part, and I would've lost a possibly interesting news article I would otherwise miss.
However TL, I've wondered how come you can't write an ambigious header like "WCS 2015 Champion crowned!" with a pixelated pic and trophy. Websites use shitty clickbait strategies all the time, so this must be something statistics support. I hate the "click to find out" strategy, but in this case it makes 100% sense as it's a win-win thing? You convey the message with a carrot being the answer, people who doesn't want to get spoiled doesn't.
Is the value of selling that sOs won higher than the value of clickbait?
Exactly.. Not everyone has a chance to watch it live, and to see it on the front page was so disappointing to see it spoiled so in your face, just to reach the VODs. I will have to be more careful for the future.
I second this. Is VERY easy to just don't set a big photo of the winner of the event in the homepage. It spoiled the finals for me.
Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
In a difficult time in Starcraft history, this finals provided the much needed credibility, excitement and performance that we needed to see out of the two best in the world. Not only the grand final but also the whole event.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
The problem with sOs is that he is not consistent. Even Classic, who can win GSL and 2 weeks later drop out of the next GSL , is more consistent
On November 09 2015 08:37 Hider wrote: Pretty boring series, and overall Blizzcon was pretty uninteresting. No idea why people thought it was great... or I guess I do. The casters were great at hyping up the games so (dumb) people get deceived into thinking the actual games were anything beyond mediocre.
Calling people dumb for not sharing your opinion is absurd
I am not arguing that people aren't excited or didn't have fun watching the game. However, what is not debateable is whether the games contained high quality gameplay in terms of skillful micro, back-and-fourth gameplay and multitasking. Over the years of Sc1 and Sc2, those elements are all a big part of the most liked games.
On the other hand, this final contained very onesided, boring micro (no FF, roaches are Hydras are not fun to watch) with almost no multitasking. The only game that seemed remotely close was G6 before Life sniped the Warp Prism.
What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
If these games were played online w/ unhyped casters and where a WCS title wasn't on the line, noone would have thought the games would be anything more than meh'ish.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
It's always difficult to weight extreme, but short lived, achievement vs sustained achievement but not quite reaching the same level of success. Even now, I don't think anyone can make a case for sOs to be the GOAT, and probably not top 5. Somewhere between 6-10 all time is probably a good fit.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
Anyone who's watched more than a couple games of starcraft ever could have called this game between SoulKey and Squirtle pretty much immediately; it doesn't stop it being one of the very best games ever played.
I must say I found the polls a bit silly as well. I voted 6x3 stars and 1x 4 stars iirc but I'd rate the entire finals 4 stars for sure due to the perfect back and forth that made it super tense.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
I can understand the disappointment though. it's a bit frustrating when at the highest level of play the games keep on being decided by build orders and blunders. I could go through the games one by one and besides D&T and that warp prism derp on cactus valley all the games were very easy to call long before the end.
Anyone who's watched more than a couple games of starcraft ever could have called this game between SoulKey and Squirtle pretty much immediately; it doesn't stop it being one of the very best games ever played.
after skimming through it I have a very vague memory that this game existed. it's not particulary good but in a way hilarious.
Why was everyone rooting for life? He is such a cheesy all in player (sos is too but atleast he is original) i personally think life is overated. Classic should have beat him, 1 mistake on moonligjt cost him
On November 09 2015 21:09 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: Why was everyone rooting for life? He is such a cheesy all in player (sos is too but atleast he is original) i personally think life is overated. Classic should have beat him, 1 mistake on moonligjt cost him
the line between "cheese" and early aggression to punish an opponent attempting to set up a high-economy opener is very blurry... especially when the opponent of life wants to have his high economy set up with zero static defense.
i'm not a big life fan, but i think its cool how he can make a small # of zerglings do so much more than your average GM player.
also, life's very early aggression sets up "broken plays" and unexpected situations and that's fun as well.. it reminds me of how C&C was played when it was in its prime.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
sOs is amazing! Perfect defence, perfect timings! Well deserved championship! All alone he brought his team to the final of Proleague, really good period for this guy.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
That's kinda what made the finals so intense. Other Protoss players would have cracked under the amount of pressure Life put up (see Classic). And other Zerg players would have rolled over and died in the face of how well sOs played.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
That's kinda what made the finals so intense. Other Protoss players would have cracked under the amount of pressure Life put up (see Classic). And other Zerg players would have rolled over and died in the face of how well sOs played.
Yeah and I'd rather remember HotS as a game of mind games and aggression than turtling mech :D
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great".
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
No there are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than if the actual games are entertaining.
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd)".. It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I get what you're saying. You're probably right, if we isolated those games from the setting (Blizzcon Finals) and took away the hype casting, they're not exactly 5 star games. More like super skilled players facing each other on ladder. But the hype surrounding the games, the casting, the atmosphere, the players' clutchness etc. turned this into an overall great series.
In my opinion, MMA vs DRG on Metalopolis early 2011 was the best game of all time (given the standards back then). I remember watching it at a chinese stream at 240/360P (so terrible quality) and the game blew my mind. It simply had everything:
1. It was an extremely important game (the deciding game between slayers and MVP as I recall).
2. Tons of build up hype. Both MMA and DRG were seen as the new stars of their respective races. DRGs was (perhaps) considered the best ZvT'er and MMA the best TvZ'er prior to this game, so everyone expected a high quality game.
3. It contained players who "innovated" their races and impacted the metagame. MMA with his doublepronged dropplay + move out with main army. Before MMA's dominance in GSTL, no terrans had actually been capable of attacking more than 2 locations at once. A couple of months later, MMA's playstyle became standard in TvZ at high level play.
DRG with his counterattack focussed zerg play. Before DRG dominated GSTL, terrans would never wall of the entrance to their natural (or build any bunkers), but due to his playstyle it became mandatory.
4. The game was back-and-fourth with a ton of action, multitasking and high-quality micro (given the standard in early 2011 ofc).
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
No there are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than if the actual games are entertaining.
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd)".. It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I get what you're saying. You're probably right, if we isolated those games from the setting (Blizzcon Finals) and took away the hype casting, they're not exactly 5 star games. More like super skilled players facing each other on ladder. But the hype surrounding the games, the casting, the atmosphere, the players' clutchness etc. turned this into an overall great series.
Yep, and I actually think that Artosis and Tastteless are the best casterduo in the esport-industry when they are on their A-game plus have a crowd. I don't see any casters in DOTA, Starcraft, lol or CS:GO that can match how well they can hype up a game.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
This finals was, from the finals i've watched so far, the most entertaining by far. Very very close all the way to the final few moments.
I don't really see the build order wins here, except maybe the tempest psyche-out, though i did see both players being mindgamed to hell and back and it was hugely entertaining.
On November 08 2015 15:03 sdnnvs wrote: The best race (Protoss) beats the best player (Life), IMO.
User was warned for this post
Why was he warned for that post? To add some facts to that topic. Using this as source(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Global_Finals#Distribution)
7 Protoss, 5 Terran and 4 Zerg in the RO16 4 Protoss, 1 Terran and 3 Zerg in the RO8 2 Protoss, 0 Terran and 2 Zerg in the RO4 1 Protoss, 0 Terran and 1 Zerg in the RO2 2 Protoss, 0 Terran and 2 Zerg in the RO1
Statistically there were more Protoss than other races.
Also for those of you saying the Protoss participation went up because of Lilbow getting to the WCS Global Finals. There were 2 other contestants from WCS, Hydra and Polt who play Z and T. So of the WCS contestants, there were an equal number of distribution in terms of race, 1 of each.
Using map statistics (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Global_Finals#Map_Statistics) we can see that in ZvP, Protoss had a 58.1 % win rate. In TvP, it was 50 % for both races. Though the sample sizes are small.
In GSL Code S, arguably the toughest competition overall, Protoss has more players in the RO32 and RO16 than other races during season 3(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S), season 2 Protoss had about the same as Zerg, although 1 more for the RO4, RO2 and RO1 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_2/Code_S). For the 1st season of GSL Code S (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S) Protoss had 5 more than Zerg in RO32.
At least there is some statistical data that show that Protoss is ahead of Zerg. I ask again. Why did you warn him?
On November 10 2015 00:59 nuogaiyen wrote: Protoss race killed starcraft, good job dev team.
Too strong words i would say Every race has already got its "golden age" Early wol - terran, late wol - zerg, hots - protoss. Last months of Hots were pretty well balanced tbh. I would just buff bio vs zerg a bit coz. Maaaeeby protoss is just slighlty too strong, but the difference is so small so that its difficult to say that the reason of this race's recent succeses are coused by the imbalance or just good performance by players playing this race. What is more it would be extremally diffucult to nerf protoss so little. Just nerfing a few hp on a unit could result in putting protoss behing other races. Watch early Lotv carefully, you will see what it means to play an imbalanced game. The worst balance is always at the beggining.
On November 10 2015 01:15 MChrome wrote: This finals was, from the finals i've watched so far, the most entertaining by far. Very very close all the way to the final few moments.
I don't really see the build order wins here, except maybe the tempest psyche-out, though i did see both players being mindgamed to hell and back and it was hugely entertaining.
g2 and g4 sOs went for fast, very commited DTs and Life had detection in both games. From there sOs was down 50+ supply with a late third in both cases and got easily rolled. g6 should have been a BO win with Life's hydras being way too late and overdroning against the immortal rush, but sOs blundered and lost the prism. g7 ling/bling allin vs forge first in the wall, I'm not sure I have seen a Protoss lose in that scenario since 2011. sOs held it without even rushing a sentry out (which would have been an instant gg) and with his second canon being too late (I guess he didnt expect the banelings, the same way life probably didn't expect the forge first and only saw it after he had already built lots of zerglings and the baneling nest). that's how BO win that was.
The Tempest thingy was one of the only builds where there wasn't a clear advantage after the early game, though I would have given it to life given that he was up 30supply at some points with sOs third and blink being late. not sure what happened, but I think life just kind of underdroned expecting a more aggressive follow up once he denied the third.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great".
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I hope you understand the difference by now.
So you admit it's just semantics then. People are not dumb to call a series great when they mean they were thoroughly entertained. You just assume they have a cognitive disability to distinguish between quality and entertainment, which is an absurd assumption.
On November 10 2015 01:27 Big J wrote: g6 should have been a BO win with Life's hydras being way too late and overdroning against the immortal rush, but sOs blundered and lost the prism.
he did not win G6 because it was not a BO win. there were Hydras and Queens scattered all over the place when that Warp Prism went down. sos did not have infinite forcefield energy to drop them down any time he wants.
he could not warp in units in some far away location and run them into that battle because Life's 23883 zerglings can surround and kill before they can join up with sos's main army. Therefore the warp prism had to remain with sos's army.
it was an intense micro battle and Life won it. G6 was decided on micro.
On November 08 2015 15:03 sdnnvs wrote: The best race (Protoss) beats the best player (Life), IMO.
User was warned for this post
Why was he warned for that post? To add some facts to that topic. Using this as source(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Global_Finals#Distribution)
7 Protoss, 5 Terran and 4 Zerg in the RO16 4 Protoss, 1 Terran and 3 Zerg in the RO8 2 Protoss, 0 Terran and 2 Zerg in the RO4 1 Protoss, 0 Terran and 1 Zerg in the RO2 2 Protoss, 0 Terran and 2 Zerg in the RO1
Statistically there were more Protoss than other races.
Also for those of you saying the Protoss participation went up because of Lilbow getting to the WCS Global Finals. There were 2 other contestants from WCS, Hydra and Polt who play Z and T. So of the WCS contestants, there were an equal number of distribution in terms of race, 1 of each.
Using map statistics (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_WCS_Global_Finals#Map_Statistics) we can see that in ZvP, Protoss had a 58.1 % win rate. In TvP, it was 50 % for both races. Though the sample sizes are small.
In GSL Code S, arguably the toughest competition overall, Protoss has more players in the RO32 and RO16 than other races during season 3(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_3/Code_S), season 2 Protoss had about the same as Zerg, although 1 more for the RO4, RO2 and RO1 (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_2/Code_S). For the 1st season of GSL Code S (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2015_Global_StarCraft_II_League_Season_1/Code_S) Protoss had 5 more than Zerg in RO32.
At least there is some statistical data that show that Protoss is ahead of Zerg. I ask again. Why did you warn him?
What he implied was that sOs won on the back of his race, whuch us not true. It is true that protoss is the dominant race in numbers, but players like life knew how to kill protosses who would rely on the race. SOs had to play a different kind of game and go through a lot of mindgames to get the throphy and that’s why he deserved it.
On November 10 2015 01:27 Big J wrote: g6 should have been a BO win with Life's hydras being way too late and overdroning against the immortal rush, but sOs blundered and lost the prism.
he did not win G6 because it was not a BO win. there were Hydras and Queens scattered all over the place when that Warp Prism went down. and you do not have infinite forcefields energy to drop any time you please.
he could not warp in units in some far away location and run them into that battle because Life's 23883 zerglings can surround and kill before they joined the army. Therefore the warp prism had to remain with sos's army.
it was an intense micro battle and Life won it.
Not really. There is a lot of choke points on that map and i have seen a lot of battles where protoss would win in that situation. It was sOs blunder that did not capitalize on life’s misread on the build.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great".
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I hope you understand the difference by now.
So you admit it's just semantics then. People are not dumb to call a series great when they mean they were thoroughly entertained. You just assume they have a cognitive disability to distinguish between quality and entertainment, which is an absurd assumption.
Except its not semantics. If the game was good, that would be awesome for Starcraft. However, the games weren't, which is problematic because it implies that you are 100% dependant on a big live audience on Tastosis to hype up the games. (Though ofc you could then respond that we can now look forward to LOTV, so bad viewing experience is less of an issue).
Call me old-school, but I absolutely prefer to watch "objectively" good games rather than mediocore games that are hyped up artifically. That's not to say other people cannot have a difference in opinion, but I dislike when people make up a world where everything is fantastic.
And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
Seriously could not have been better. Both players past world championship winners, both players pulling out these amazing builds, alternating wins, and a 7 game series! I could not have asked for a better end to HotS!
Series could not have been better? Thus implying the games were actually good....
was really pulling for Life but it was actually a great series. extremely high level play on both sides. i'm glad that it didn't end on game 6 and we got one more amazing game of HotS. i feel like almost any other protoss would have died to that ling all-in.. wow.
One more amazing game? As in G7 was actually amazing?
Almost every game was good. The tempest build was brilliant, the hold on the immortal push was life being life and the last game well, it was a baneling bust against protoss, what more is there to say.
This one is obvious.
WOW. This match was the best advertisment for Legacy that you could have think of. This match on his own should get many people to try out this game. That was amazing. sOs deserved it at the end so much - this last hold, damn.
BTW this post is the only one below 40 upvotes (just 20).
Are you considering to reevluate your stance that it is absurd that so many people actually thought the games in itself were good?
On November 10 2015 01:27 Big J wrote: g6 should have been a BO win with Life's hydras being way too late and overdroning against the immortal rush, but sOs blundered and lost the prism.
he did not win G6 because it was not a BO win. there were Hydras and Queens scattered all over the place when that Warp Prism went down. and you do not have infinite forcefields energy to drop any time you please.
he could not warp in units in some far away location and run them into that battle because Life's 23883 zerglings can surround and kill before they joined the army. Therefore the warp prism had to remain with sos's army.
it was an intense micro battle and Life won it.
Not really. There is a lot of choke points on that map and i have seen a lot of battles where protoss would win in that situation. It was sOs blunder that did not capitalize on life’s misread on the build.
a BO win is by definition simple to execute after you get the BO correct. if its too complex for sos then.... LOL sos couldn't get his army into the tightest choke point he needed to get to.
life's misread was catalyzed by an hallucinated immortal in a previous game and the fact that sos kept his immortals hidden until he moved out.
so much "i know that you don't know that i know" mind games going on made it a fun series.
On November 10 2015 01:27 Big J wrote: g6 should have been a BO win with Life's hydras being way too late and overdroning against the immortal rush, but sOs blundered and lost the prism.
he did not win G6 because it was not a BO win. there were Hydras and Queens scattered all over the place when that Warp Prism went down. and you do not have infinite forcefields energy to drop any time you please.
he could not warp in units in some far away location and run them into that battle because Life's 23883 zerglings can surround and kill before they joined the army. Therefore the warp prism had to remain with sos's army.
it was an intense micro battle and Life won it.
Not really. There is a lot of choke points on that map and i have seen a lot of battles where protoss would win in that situation. It was sOs blunder that did not capitalize on life’s misread on the build.
a BO win is by definition simple to execute after you get the BO correct. if its too complex for sos then.... LOL sos couldn't get his army into the tightest choke point he needed to get to.
life's misread was catalyzed by an hallucinated immortal in a previous game and the fact that sos kept his immortals hidden until he moved out.
so much "i know that you don't know that i know" mind games going on made it a fun series.
and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes can always happen and just because something is "easy" (for that kind of player) to avoid doesn't mean it doesn't happen. otherwise we could never call something a build order win ever. sOs simply didn't control his army well, or at all in that situation, fought with hydras that were forcefielded out, wasted damage on the hatchery, couldnt make up is mind what to do with the prism and eventually lost it against hydras that would have been dead if he positioned his army better.
whether the hallucinated immortal influenced anything is a complete guess. the immortal hallucination simply made sense in the context of the other game, as it is the only power unit sOs could have theoretically gotten out from the DT rush with robo follow up. obviously a voidray or collossus would have been a fake and sOs simply tried to trick life into not attacking him while he was trying to cut corners. also I don't really have a clue how the immortal would influence Life's mindset for the other game to begin with. "so you hallucinated an immortal, I guess that means you won't do that old immortal rush in another game", lol. it's a rare build these days and life didn't scout for it, plain as that.
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
On November 08 2015 15:03 sdnnvs wrote: The best race (Protoss) beats the best player (Life), IMO.
User was warned for this post
Should have been a ban, contributes nothing to the thread and is disrespectful ha.
It was and amazing finals and both players displayed exceptional skill imo.
There is nothing to ban or warn for. He said that in his opinion life is the best player and protoss is the best race and one won over the other. Numbers somewhat even back this up in HOTS.
There are some guys here who are very personal about their racial preference. So if you neither name a terran the best player nor name terran the up race within such a statement, you got a problem.
When you get close to anything that can concern balance then do it the big scale like dwf and back it up with dubious numbers and questionable facts but please don't on page 5 comments in a simple and meaningless way or you get displayed to public as the bad balance whiner that you are!
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
ok then it's semantics. bo-wins don't exist for you which is fine with me, which still means that in the way I'd define a bo win it was one.
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
ok then it's semantics. bo-wins don't exist for you which is fine with me, which still means that in the way I'd define a bo win it was one.
its not semantics. if really difficult micro and strategic decision making is required to leverage your BO advantage into a win condition then its not a BO win.
had sos backed off and only gone after life's 3rd then we have a long game ahead of us with no guarantees... thus no BO Win.
if sos goes in for the kill, given the hydras and queens spread all over the place... sos requires insanely high micro abilities to get into life's main ramp while keeping his warp prism BOTH alive AND warping in several sets of units along the way.
it was just a really amazingly cool micro battle as sos attempted to push his main army into life's main ramp well played by both guys
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
ok then it's semantics. bo-wins don't exist for you which is fine with me, which still means that in the way I'd define a bo win it was one.
its not semantics. if really difficult micro and strategic decision making is required to leverage your BO advantage into a win condition then its not a BO win.
had sos backed off and only gone after life's 3rd then we have a long game ahead of us with no guarantees... thus no BO Win.
if sos goes in for the kill, given the hydras and queens spread all over the place... sos requires insanely high micro abilities to get into life's main ramp while keeping his warp prism BOTH alive AND warping in several sets of units along the way.
it was just a really amazingly cool micro battle as sos attempted to push his main army into life's main ramp well played by both guys
of course it is semantics, you are only arguing about how difficult "easy" has to be for you.
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
ok then it's semantics. bo-wins don't exist for you which is fine with me, which still means that in the way I'd define a bo win it was one.
its not semantics. if really difficult micro and strategic decision making is required to leverage your BO advantage into a win condition then its not a BO win.
had sos backed off and only gone after life's 3rd then we have a long game ahead of us with no guarantees... thus no BO Win.
if sos goes in for the kill, given the hydras and queens spread all over the place... sos requires insanely high micro abilities to get into life's main ramp while keeping his warp prism BOTH alive AND warping in several sets of units along the way.
it was just a really amazingly cool micro battle as sos attempted to push his main army into life's main ramp well played by both guys
of course it is semantics, you are only arguing about how difficult "easy" has to be for you.
watch it in slow motion dawg. where can he put that warp prism and still warp in 4 units on time within range of his army... there is precious little space...and keep in mind his vision limitations as you watch in slo-mo.
also note that the 4 units in question were half warped in when the warp prism went down. had those 4 units gotten warped in..... also note the hydra range upgrade was being researched but not complete during that battle... had it completed DURING that fight.... damn
of course he can keep the warp prism alive if he never warps in anything.
On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote: And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. you sound like an 80s wrestling fan complaining that Hulk Hogan never did enough triple-german-suplexes off the top rope while losing a pint of blood from a razor bladed cut on his forehead.
i've seen better games. that said, i liked the series and i had a great time watching Blizzcon;i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in 2016 and make a nice sum of cash. i'll get my Hider sign ready.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else with. ( notice i ended that sentence with a preposition)
On November 10 2015 02:25 Big J wrote: and that's why I call it a blunder. mistakes...
rather than twist my mind into a pretzel of rationalizations it goes like this
a bo wins means a win. sos did not win.
if there are other requirements on top of the BO that are above sos's level of play then its not a BO win. it was a life micro win... due to the limits on forcefield energy there was only 1 place sos's army could go and getting there cost him his warp prism... there were Queens and Hydras every where and he had to pump out 4 more units.
both of these guys have been out-microing the rest of the world for a long long time... and being an old C&C guy.. i like micro... i hope i'm allowed to like micro.
ok then it's semantics. bo-wins don't exist for you which is fine with me, which still means that in the way I'd define a bo win it was one.
its not semantics. if really difficult micro and strategic decision making is required to leverage your BO advantage into a win condition then its not a BO win.
had sos backed off and only gone after life's 3rd then we have a long game ahead of us with no guarantees... thus no BO Win.
if sos goes in for the kill, given the hydras and queens spread all over the place... sos requires insanely high micro abilities to get into life's main ramp while keeping his warp prism BOTH alive AND warping in several sets of units along the way.
it was just a really amazingly cool micro battle as sos attempted to push his main army into life's main ramp well played by both guys
of course it is semantics, you are only arguing about how difficult "easy" has to be for you.
watch it in slow motion dawg. where can he put that warp prism and still warp in 4 units on time within range of his army... there is precious little space...and keep in mind his vision limitations as you watch in slo-mo.
also note that the 4 units in question were half warped in when the warp prism went down. had those 4 units gotten warped in..... also note the hydra range upgrade was being researched but not complete during that battle... had it completed DURING that fight.... damn
of course he can keep the warp prism alive if he never warps in anything.
so much cool shit going on during that fight
all-in-all .. game 6 was pretty sweet.
I already said that, he can move his whole army to the bottom right to the spot where he eventually lost his prism. Havingyour army protect your prism if it is the only source of warpins in such a rush is the standard micro. he did not, had his units focusing random stuff and got punished.
the last place life was going to let him go was anywhere near his main ramp. he was completely surrounded and had very, very little space to safely stop his Wp and lay down 4 more units in time.
which is why he lost it... he got outmicro-ed by life... trying to get to life's main ramp.
On November 10 2015 03:34 Big J wrote: had his units focusing random stuff and got punished.
random stuff? he was badly outnumbered and running out of forcefield energy... he could not stay there... and he has to kill units off.
and while all this is going on.. what if the range upgrade finishes LOL
no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money.
Ironic how you claim I am missing the point!. What you wrote has nothing to do with what I wrote. You should consider rereading my comments or ask questions before claiming other people are missing the point.
i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in
The "skill quality" of the games have nothing to do with whether the games by them selves were fun to watch. If you properly read and understood my previous post you would read that the "best games of all time" have some common characteristica:
- Lots of multitasking - Skillful micro (that's easy for the viewers to recognize and clearly makes a difference) - Back-and-fourth gameplay!
A 0-0 soccer game can also contain very high level play, but still be boring as fuck to watch.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else wit
Here is a suggestion: You should take an IQ test in Danish in order to determine how smart you are!
Srs, only dumb people attempt to make a connection between spelling errors on an online forum and whether the person is dumb. Giving your post history, I have no reason to expect that you are the exception to the rule.
i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in
The "skill quality" of the games have nothing to do with whether the games in them selves were fun to watch. Read my previous post: You need lots of multitasking, great micro-interactions and back-and-fourth gameplay! A 0-0 soccer game can also contain very high level play, but still be boring as fuck to watch.
getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else wit
Here is a suggestion: You should take an IQ test in Danish to determine how smart you are!
Seriously, think before you write.
dude when you write "your wrong" its great comedy... its entertaining but not as entertaining as BlizzCon. i had great fun watching the games... and i thought hte micro on display was phenomenal... especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1... and that micro display was merely the tip of the iceberg.
in conclusion, it was great to see the best previous BlizzCon winners finish the trilogy Blizzcon 2015 served as a great promo for LotV.
If we are discussing the game ratings, despite the fact the discussion went into a weird direction and is now just an argument with no real point, then i have my 2 cents.
The rating are used as recommendations, so it makes sense if someone evaluates for the entertainment value. Its fine if people evaluates based on game quality too, someone checking the ratings should assume both views are there.
There is also not a clear deffinition of what is an entertaining game or a high quality one. Throwing your own definition here won't change that. Specially for the votes focused on the entertainment value, they are not up to debate since its highly subjective, dude had tons of fun, forgot to breathe, 5 stars.
And where do I imply otherwise? All I stated was that I personally didn't enjoy it since the games weren't particularly good. Never said other people aren't allowed to have their own opinions on what creates a fun (overall) viewing experience.
especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1.
This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about.
especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1.
This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about.
nah, i've watched life force players to tilt somewhat with a zergling invasion of less than 8. sos pulled away the exact # of probes necessary at just the right time so they were at the top of the ramp as the zerglings climbed up without vision.
and again .. that is a low # of units .. there was tonne of other great micro throughout the 7 game series.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general.
E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build?
Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
On November 10 2015 04:10 deacon.frost wrote: Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
kinda like how it was with Flash when he was at his fastest.
especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1.
This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about.
nah, i've watched life force players to tilt somewhat with a zergling invasion of less than 8. sos pulled away the exact # of probes necessary at just the right time so they were at the top of the ramp as the zerglings climbed up without vision.
and again .. that is a low # of units .. there was tonne of other great micro throughout the 7 game series.
Do you also get excited when someone saves a drone against a Reaper by building a Spore Crawler in the last second?
From having studied all of the great games (and not just in Sc2), I found one critical component that is lacking here when it comes to the viewing experience in that example.
And that is the importance isn't obvious enough. It's a low impact situation. It's something that could potentially have given Life a small advantage going into the midgame, and while these moments are okay as "time-wasters", they are hard for the viewer to appreciate (unless you have super hype casterrs).
The Warp-Prism moment was definitely a "big moment" and easy for the average viewer to appreciate, however, it was just one big moment. The best viewing experiences have a high frequency of these "moments".
Classic $o$, plays shitty until there is actual money on the line. He has his priorities straight xD I think Life deserved it more but the better player won and that's all that matters in the end.
On November 10 2015 04:17 Hider wrote: Do you also get excited when someone saves a drone against a Reaper by building a Spore Crawler in the last second?
planting a spore crawler is just moving around 1 drone... and there is no damage dealing going on by the drone. also, i think its usually a spine crawler that gets planted.
i like bigger battles with fighting on both sides.
On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote: What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying.
There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great".
It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games).
I hope you understand the difference by now.
So you admit it's just semantics then. People are not dumb to call a series great when they mean they were thoroughly entertained. You just assume they have a cognitive disability to distinguish between quality and entertainment, which is an absurd assumption.
Except its not semantics. If the game was good, that would be awesome for Starcraft. However, the games weren't, which is problematic because it implies that you are 100% dependant on a big live audience on Tastosis to hype up the games. (Though ofc you could then respond that we can now look forward to LOTV, so bad viewing experience is less of an issue).
Call me old-school, but I absolutely prefer to watch "objectively" good games rather than mediocore games that are hyped up artifically. That's not to say other people cannot have a difference in opinion, but I dislike when people make up a world where everything is fantastic.
And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments.
Seriously could not have been better. Both players past world championship winners, both players pulling out these amazing builds, alternating wins, and a 7 game series! I could not have asked for a better end to HotS!
Series could not have been better? Thus implying the games were actually good....
was really pulling for Life but it was actually a great series. extremely high level play on both sides. i'm glad that it didn't end on game 6 and we got one more amazing game of HotS. i feel like almost any other protoss would have died to that ling all-in.. wow.
One more amazing game? As in G7 was actually amazing?
Almost every game was good. The tempest build was brilliant, the hold on the immortal push was life being life and the last game well, it was a baneling bust against protoss, what more is there to say.
WOW. This match was the best advertisment for Legacy that you could have think of. This match on his own should get many people to try out this game. That was amazing. sOs deserved it at the end so much - this last hold, damn.
BTW this post is the only one below 40 upvotes (just 20).
Are you considering to reevluate your stance that it is absurd that so many people actually thought the games in itself were good?
The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point. You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value. You can't shift between the two positions like that. My whole issue with your original statement is that you are basically saying that people are dumb because they can't appreciate the subtle differences between superb and lesser quality of play. That has little to do with intelligence, and is kind of an elitist attitude.
The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point.
That has nothing to do with what I am writing at all. You'll probably realize that if you look at my two most recent posts.
You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value
I've been consistent in all of my comments, so I am not sure why you write I suddenly have to decide. The point is: Don't say these games are awesome when they are mediocore.
Going slightly OT; this is not just an issue just here, but arises from the circlejerk-nature of the internet where everything is black and white. Either everything is fantastic and amazing or it just sucks. There is no middleground, e.g. no "well the games were mediocre but the casting and hype was fantastic".
If you watch these games and semiregularly watch Starcraft and think they are good, I am almost certain that you cannot asses the underlying factors that creates enjoyment for you. That to me is an obvious sign of a lack of analytical ability.
Those people are also prone to extreme misusage of the correlation/causation-error in other areas as well. So yes - while harsh - I think one is dumb if one says those games were fantastic/great.
On November 10 2015 04:17 Hider wrote: The Warp-Prism moment was definitely a "big moment" and easy for the average viewer to appreciate, however, it was just one big moment. The best viewing experiences have a high frequency of these "moments".
that's why i somewhat prefer RA2 and RA3 ... but only slightly over SC2 in that respect. once u factor in support and other issues its SC2 all the way.
fortunately, the big dawgs from RA2 and RA3 are all on the LotV team because no one makes RTS games any longer that pays well except Blizzard and maybe Quinn Duffy at Relic.
LotV has definitely taken a hard turn towards the C&C style of RTS. the only thing missing at this point is larger worker units that take longer to build and have much more HP that carry a larger quantity of resources back to the base
On November 10 2015 05:20 Hider wrote: If you watch these games and semiregularly watch Starcraft and think they are good, I am almost certain that you cannot asses the underlying factors that creates enjoyment for you. That to me is an obvious sign of a lack of analytical ability.
no its self alienation.
u could be a genius in abstract thinking and still NOT be in touch with the root cause of your feelings of enjoyment. but this is way way way off topic... but u brought it up.. not me.
i like micro which is why i gravitate towards C&C and damn the micro on display was phenomenal.
if you think the micro was mediocre... break out that mouse and keyboard and wreck some face in 2016 dude.
The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point.
That has nothing to do with what I am writing at all. You'll probably realize that if you look at my two most recent posts.
You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value
I've been consistent in all of my comments, so I am not sure why you write I suddenly have to decide. The point is: Don't say these games are awesome when they are mediocore.
You distinctly said that people are unable to distinguish between good games and excitement due to lack of basic analytical abilities, and that they therefore are dumb. I am just pointing out the fundamental flaw with that statement.
However I agree with you that the general reddit atmosphere is quite bad. I really don't like it, it's annoying and I don't visit the reddit page anymore.
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general.
E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build?
Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
I think sOs just has a ton of builds. Sometimes they even feel a tad bit weaker than when played by masters of those builds (e.g Parting would hit that Soultrain with 3immortals and extraordinary prism micro sometimes up to 20seconds faster, see for example his build in the 2013 proleague showmatches), but given the amount of prepartion play by Koreans it must be extremely hard to play sOs for them. The decisions and builds within one game are all somewhat consistent and I think quite analyzeable, but within a game it must be very hard to read such a varied Protoss that has the mechanical skills to go toe-to-toe with the best macro players too. (the typical aggressive players using lots of cheesy plays usually fall on their face against macro players in longer games. sOs and Life are two of the exceptions)
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
Just bookmark the Tourneys page, or the VoD post itself even, in advance and you won't have any issues.
On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote: Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs.
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general.
E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build?
Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
I think sOs just has a ton of builds. Sometimes they even feel a tad bit weaker than when played by masters of those builds (e.g Parting would hit that Soultrain with 3immortals and extraordinary prism micro sometimes up to 20seconds faster, see for example his build in the 2013 proleague showmatches), but given the amount of prepartion play by Koreans it must be extremely hard to play sOs for them.
i don't think he has a tonne of builds. they are not set builds and so they appear weaker than a close approximation of someone else's build you've seen be pulled off 1000X in a row by someone else... which is why he has no problems stirring up crazy shit at the start of a match.
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 09 2015 18:28 thecrazymunchkin wrote: [quote]
Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing
Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand.
Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others:
tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game)
sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does).
Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone.
Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him.
because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +
There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled
sOs does similar things but on much higher level
Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general.
E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build?
Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
I think sOs just has a ton of builds. Sometimes they even feel a tad bit weaker than when played by masters of those builds (e.g Parting would hit that Soultrain with 3immortals and extraordinary prism micro sometimes up to 20seconds faster, see for example his build in the 2013 proleague showmatches), but given the amount of prepartion play by Koreans it must be extremely hard to play sOs for them.
i don't think he has a tonne of builds. they are not set builds and so they appear weaker than a close approximation of someone else's build you've seen be pulled off 1000X in a row by someone else... which is why he has no problems stirring up crazy shit at the start of a match.
I mean we can quarrel again what a build order is (I guess gameplan is a more vague term we can both live with?)... but I hope we can agree that he uses a lot of different openings and has good follow up plans that reactively try to emphasize on the various outcomes of his and his opponent's openings.
"sOs then attempted to go in an entirely different direction with the infamous soul train, but Life sniffed it out and forced a Game 7". Can't agree with that. If only sos managed to keep his warp prism alive, there would be no game 7. It's 4-2 for me.
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
Sc2tube shows "sos vs life" on the Frontpage. The Youtube channel automaticly load : "sos vs Life" final.
I just bookmark the twitch vods, delete TL bookmark, and thank the lord that blizzard don't put stupid spoiler titles to their vods. I remember GOM once did that, they split each game (not match) into separate vods with titles like "Bomber vs Life game 1", effectively spoiling both results and number of games of a series.
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
Sc2tube shows "sos vs life" on the Frontpage. The Youtube channel automaticly load : "sos vs Life" final.
You can turn an anti-spoiler thing on.
I would need to subscribes to these sites which could be a solution you are right. But i don't want to go to every starcraft site for every functionallity i would like to use (i'm exagerating of course but you see the point). TL is the big site. Everything is in there.
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
Sc2tube shows "sos vs life" on the Frontpage. The Youtube channel automaticly load : "sos vs Life" final.
I just bookmark the twitch vods, delete TL bookmark, and thank the lord that blizzard don't put stupid spoiler titles to their vods. I remember GOM once did that, they split each game (not match) into separate vods with titles like "Bomber vs Life game 1", effectively spoiling both results and number of games of a series.
Yeah could do that but i would have to go to twitch "on time" to bookmark the VODS. sadly sometime i don't browse a starcraft site for a week so when i want to know where is the twitch/youtube channel i come to TL for it but results are out.
I made a website feedback thread to continue the discussion there if you want since it's not really the subject of this topic (my bad sorry i started)
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote: People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
On November 08 2015 14:56 Plexa wrote: I'm sure the the rest of the writing team will have many things to say about this weekend and this series, so stay tuned for their recaps!
And where are their recaps? Are they too busy trying out lotv ?
sOs has the two things that make you win games in SC2 above all else : stellar crisis management and an undeniable talent to fuck your opponent's brain up with the clutchest, weirdest cheeses ever.
MVP and, to a smaller extent, Life, have that too. They're the three players who have repeatedly pulled it off when it truly matters and I feel like that's the way they should be remembered. These guys are not only mechanically gifted, they're downright insane (granted sOs is on another level of crazy).
On a game where macro is so fragile and fights so volatile, we should have known from the start that THIS was the road to success.
Edit : sry about the double post, haven't had coffee yet
On November 08 2015 14:56 Plexa wrote: I'm sure the the rest of the writing team will have many things to say about this weekend and this series, so stay tuned for their recaps!
And where are their recaps? Are they too busy trying out lotv ?
They're still on their way back from Blizzcon D: lucky bastards
I really wonder why people do not mention SC2casts for spoiler free VODs? Whenever I miss a tournament I just go check the website and hit the event I missed on the frontpage ... everything is organised so you don't have to no how many games were played in a series and who's at which stage etc. otherwise for WCS on twitch the whole tournament day is available in past broadcasts for free, no?
That song is great. I only know the name cause youtube gave me copyright warning in my "sc2 highlights 2015" video. Youtube says this "Victorious-5 Alarm Music - Cinemasounds". I havent really found the song though anywhere official, but here it is.
EPT
Classic had earned his semifinals spot by besting 
Life had found his way into the semifinals after a great series against 
INnoVation. ![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finals1.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finals2.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finalssnap.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finals6.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finals7.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finals8.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/wcsfinals/finalssos.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IGn6L92.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://puu.sh/iEjU6/5e6ad17431.gif)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/s5FqZ9L.png)
