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On November 10 2015 03:41 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +no, you're missing the point. that is not the consumers job. the consumers job is to spend money. Ironic how I seem to be missing the point. What you write has nothing to do with what I wrote. Show nested quote + i thought the quality of play was very high. if you think it wasn't high level then you're more than welcome to run the table in The "skill quality" of the games have nothing to do with whether the games in them selves were fun to watch. Read my previous post: You need lots of multitasking, great micro-interactions and back-and-fourth gameplay! A 0-0 soccer game can also contain very high level play, but still be boring as fuck to watch. Show nested quote +getting these basic grammar details incorrect it makes me wonder if i should paint you with the "dumb" brush that you like to paint every one else wit Here is a suggestion: You should take an IQ test in Danish to determine how smart you are! Seriously, think before you write.
dude when you write "your wrong" its great comedy... its entertaining but not as entertaining as BlizzCon.
i had great fun watching the games... and i thought hte micro on display was phenomenal... especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1... and that micro display was merely the tip of the iceberg.
in conclusion, it was great to see the best previous BlizzCon winners finish the trilogy
Blizzcon 2015 served as a great promo for LotV.
as a fan of the genre i really appreciate that.
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If we are discussing the game ratings, despite the fact the discussion went into a weird direction and is now just an argument with no real point, then i have my 2 cents.
The rating are used as recommendations, so it makes sense if someone evaluates for the entertainment value. Its fine if people evaluates based on game quality too, someone checking the ratings should assume both views are there.
There is also not a clear deffinition of what is an entertaining game or a high quality one. Throwing your own definition here won't change that. Specially for the votes focused on the entertainment value, they are not up to debate since its highly subjective, dude had tons of fun, forgot to breathe, 5 stars.
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i had great fun watching the games.
And where do I imply otherwise? All I stated was that I personally didn't enjoy it since the games weren't particularly good. Never said other people aren't allowed to have their own opinions on what creates a fun (overall) viewing experience.
especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1.
This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about.
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On November 10 2015 04:01 Hider wrote:And where do I imply otherwise? Show nested quote +especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1. This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about.
nah, i've watched life force players to tilt somewhat with a zergling invasion of less than 8. sos pulled away the exact # of probes necessary at just the right time so they were at the top of the ramp as the zerglings climbed up without vision.
and again .. that is a low # of units .. there was tonne of other great micro throughout the 7 game series.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On November 10 2015 01:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 23:43 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 22:22 sAsImre wrote:On November 09 2015 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 19:44 Elentos wrote:On November 09 2015 19:40 cheekymonkey wrote:On November 09 2015 18:28 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote:
Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs. Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand. Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others: tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game) sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does). Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone. Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs  I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle  I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him. because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled sOs does similar things but on much higher level Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think.
Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general.
E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build?
Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
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On November 10 2015 04:10 deacon.frost wrote:Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
kinda like how it was with Flash when he was at his fastest.
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On November 10 2015 04:04 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 04:01 Hider wrote:i had great fun watching the games. And where do I imply otherwise? especially sos losing no probes after life snuck 4 zerglings into his main in g1. This is what great casters do! They make you extremely excited about stuff people normally wouldn't care that much about. nah, i've watched life force players to tilt somewhat with a zergling invasion of less than 8. sos pulled away the exact # of probes necessary at just the right time so they were at the top of the ramp as the zerglings climbed up without vision. and again .. that is a low # of units .. there was tonne of other great micro throughout the 7 game series.
Do you also get excited when someone saves a drone against a Reaper by building a Spore Crawler in the last second?
From having studied all of the great games (and not just in Sc2), I found one critical component that is lacking here when it comes to the viewing experience in that example.
And that is the importance isn't obvious enough. It's a low impact situation. It's something that could potentially have given Life a small advantage going into the midgame, and while these moments are okay as "time-wasters", they are hard for the viewer to appreciate (unless you have super hype casterrs).
The Warp-Prism moment was definitely a "big moment" and easy for the average viewer to appreciate, however, it was just one big moment. The best viewing experiences have a high frequency of these "moments".
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Classic $o$, plays shitty until there is actual money on the line. He has his priorities straight xD I think Life deserved it more but the better player won and that's all that matters in the end.
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On November 10 2015 02:35 LSN wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 15:34 wstubzi wrote:On November 08 2015 15:03 sdnnvs wrote:
The best race (Protoss) beats the best player (Life), IMO.
User was warned for this post Should have been a ban, contributes nothing to the thread and is disrespectful ha. It was and amazing finals and both players displayed exceptional skill imo. When you get close to anything that can concern balance then do it the big scale like dwf and back it up with dubious numbers and questionable facts
Savage burn :D
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On November 10 2015 04:17 Hider wrote:
Do you also get excited when someone saves a drone against a Reaper by building a Spore Crawler in the last second?
planting a spore crawler is just moving around 1 drone... and there is no damage dealing going on by the drone.
also, i think its usually a spine crawler that gets planted.
i like bigger battles with fighting on both sides.
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On November 10 2015 01:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 01:31 cheekymonkey wrote:On November 09 2015 22:41 Hider wrote:On November 09 2015 19:44 cheekymonkey wrote:On November 09 2015 18:09 Hider wrote:
What people are doing is that they are confusing "I am excited/entertained" with "the games are good". People who cannot make such a a distinction demonstrates a basic lack of analytical abilities, and I categorize them as dumb.
I think you just fail to appreciate the fact that there are a lot of other factors than strict quality of a game or a series that can make it good. There is also a lot of mind projection on your side it seems. It is kind of stupid to call people dumb because they felt the games were good, because you are obviously putting your own assumptions into what they are saying. There are a lot of other factors that can make a series entertaining to watch than the games them selves. But that doesn't make the games in itself "great". It's one thing to say "that was awesome and so fun to watch" (this takes into account the hype from casters and crowd and if you are rooting for one player). It's another thing to say "wow those games were so great" (here you need to look isolated the quality of the games). I hope you understand the difference by now. So you admit it's just semantics then. People are not dumb to call a series great when they mean they were thoroughly entertained. You just assume they have a cognitive disability to distinguish between quality and entertainment, which is an absurd assumption. Except its not semantics. If the game was good, that would be awesome for Starcraft. However, the games weren't, which is problematic because it implies that you are 100% dependant on a big live audience on Tastosis to hype up the games. (Though ofc you could then respond that we can now look forward to LOTV, so bad viewing experience is less of an issue). Call me old-school, but I absolutely prefer to watch "objectively" good games rather than mediocore games that are hyped up artifically. That's not to say other people cannot have a difference in opinion, but I dislike when people make up a world where everything is fantastic. And your wrong! Lots of people cannot distuinish between "great experience" and "great games by them selves". Let's look at some highly upvoted reddit comments. Show nested quote +Seriously could not have been better. Both players past world championship winners, both players pulling out these amazing builds, alternating wins, and a 7 game series! I could not have asked for a better end to HotS! Series could not have been better? Thus implying the games were actually good.... Show nested quote +was really pulling for Life but it was actually a great series. extremely high level play on both sides. i'm glad that it didn't end on game 6 and we got one more amazing game of HotS. i feel like almost any other protoss would have died to that ling all-in.. wow. One more amazing game? As in G7 was actually amazing? Show nested quote +Almost every game was good. The tempest build was brilliant, the hold on the immortal push was life being life and the last game well, it was a baneling bust against protoss, what more is there to say. This one is obvious. Show nested quote +WOW. This match was the best advertisment for Legacy that you could have think of. This match on his own should get many people to try out this game. That was amazing. sOs deserved it at the end so much - this last hold, damn. BTW this post is the only one below 40 upvotes (just 20). Are you considering to reevluate your stance that it is absurd that so many people actually thought the games in itself were good?
The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point. You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value. You can't shift between the two positions like that. My whole issue with your original statement is that you are basically saying that people are dumb because they can't appreciate the subtle differences between superb and lesser quality of play. That has little to do with intelligence, and is kind of an elitist attitude.
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The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point.
That has nothing to do with what I am writing at all. You'll probably realize that if you look at my two most recent posts.
You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value
I've been consistent in all of my comments, so I am not sure why you write I suddenly have to decide. The point is: Don't say these games are awesome when they are mediocore.
Going slightly OT; this is not just an issue just here, but arises from the circlejerk-nature of the internet where everything is black and white. Either everything is fantastic and amazing or it just sucks. There is no middleground, e.g. no "well the games were mediocre but the casting and hype was fantastic".
If you watch these games and semiregularly watch Starcraft and think they are good, I am almost certain that you cannot asses the underlying factors that creates enjoyment for you. That to me is an obvious sign of a lack of analytical ability.
Those people are also prone to extreme misusage of the correlation/causation-error in other areas as well. So yes - while harsh - I think one is dumb if one says those games were fantastic/great.
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On November 10 2015 04:17 Hider wrote:
The Warp-Prism moment was definitely a "big moment" and easy for the average viewer to appreciate, however, it was just one big moment. The best viewing experiences have a high frequency of these "moments".
that's why i somewhat prefer RA2 and RA3 ... but only slightly over SC2 in that respect.
once u factor in support and other issues its SC2 all the way.
fortunately, the big dawgs from RA2 and RA3 are all on the LotV team because no one makes RTS games any longer that pays well except Blizzard and maybe Quinn Duffy at Relic.
LotV has definitely taken a hard turn towards the C&C style of RTS.
the only thing missing at this point is larger worker units that take longer to build and have much more HP that carry a larger quantity of resources back to the base
On November 10 2015 05:20 Hider wrote:
If you watch these games and semiregularly watch Starcraft and think they are good, I am almost certain that you cannot asses the underlying factors that creates enjoyment for you. That to me is an obvious sign of a lack of analytical ability.
no its self alienation.
u could be a genius in abstract thinking and still NOT be in touch with the root cause of your feelings of enjoyment.
but this is way way way off topic... but u brought it up.. not me.
i like micro which is why i gravitate towards C&C and damn the micro on display was phenomenal.
if you think the micro was mediocre... break out that mouse and keyboard and wreck some face in 2016 dude.
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On November 10 2015 05:20 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +The point is not whether people are able to distinguish between games showcasing various levels of skill. This will vary from person to person, depending on their own skill and experience playing the game. However, lacking skill or failing to appreciate superb skill is not being dumb at all. That's the point. That has nothing to do with what I am writing at all. You'll probably realize that if you look at my two most recent posts. Show nested quote +You have to decide: are you complaining about people not being able to appreciate various levels of quality play, or whether they "lack analytical abilities" in such a way that they are unable to distinguish perceived quality of play from entertainment value I've been consistent in all of my comments, so I am not sure why you write I suddenly have to decide. The point is: Don't say these games are awesome when they are mediocore.
You distinctly said that people are unable to distinguish between good games and excitement due to lack of basic analytical abilities, and that they therefore are dumb. I am just pointing out the fundamental flaw with that statement.
However I agree with you that the general reddit atmosphere is quite bad. I really don't like it, it's annoying and I don't visit the reddit page anymore.
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On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote:
People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius.
Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
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On November 10 2015 04:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 01:13 Big J wrote:On November 09 2015 23:43 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 22:22 sAsImre wrote:On November 09 2015 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 19:44 Elentos wrote:On November 09 2015 19:40 cheekymonkey wrote:On November 09 2015 18:28 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote:
Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs. Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand. Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others: tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game) sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does). Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone. Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him. because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled sOs does similar things but on much higher level Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think. Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general. E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build? Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably
I think sOs just has a ton of builds. Sometimes they even feel a tad bit weaker than when played by masters of those builds (e.g Parting would hit that Soultrain with 3immortals and extraordinary prism micro sometimes up to 20seconds faster, see for example his build in the 2013 proleague showmatches), but given the amount of prepartion play by Koreans it must be extremely hard to play sOs for them.
The decisions and builds within one game are all somewhat consistent and I think quite analyzeable, but within a game it must be very hard to read such a varied Protoss that has the mechanical skills to go toe-to-toe with the best macro players too. (the typical aggressive players using lots of cheesy plays usually fall on their face against macro players in longer games. sOs and Life are two of the exceptions)
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On November 10 2015 07:27 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2015 04:10 deacon.frost wrote:On November 10 2015 01:13 Big J wrote:On November 09 2015 23:43 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 22:22 sAsImre wrote:On November 09 2015 22:04 deacon.frost wrote:On November 09 2015 19:44 Elentos wrote:On November 09 2015 19:40 cheekymonkey wrote:On November 09 2015 18:28 thecrazymunchkin wrote:On November 09 2015 17:01 Naikonz wrote:
Remember the "Greatest Players of All Time" threads? The fact that they didn't include sOs in the Top 15 at first was pretty pathethic, but now the whole thing should be reconsidered. There is only one two-time World Champion in Starcraft 2 history, and his name is sOs. Because obviously future events should have been predicted at the time of writing Well, I think his point is that sOs's impact on the scene didn't come overnight, and that it ought to have been appreciated beforehand. Keep in mind that was stuchiu's article, and I believe criteria were, among others: tournament wins (sOs has gotten 2 more since then) consistency (sOs isn't very consistent) peak skill (sOs does well in that department) influence on the game (sOs doesn't influence the meta, he plays his own game) sOs cannot influence the meta. He is using his superb knowledge to make decisions no one below GM would be able to(And I have feeling that it would be hard for GM players to read the game the way sOs does). Ptitdrogo said it was impossible for him to or any foreign P to copy sOs. And i'd willingly bet it's impossible for anyone. Not sure how much Ptitdrogo talks with sOs I think sOs plays a style which needs to be explained by his author. In a lots of other styles(eg. templar opening by Parting) you can see the pattern, you can see the signs. You don't see this when sOs plays because because they are too subtle I wonder if Classic/Zest/herO can see these moments and say why is sOs doing what he's doing. It can be too risk for them to play his style or maybe he's that knowledgeable that even other top level Protoss cannot copy him. because I think it's really confusing what I wrote I give you an example. + Show Spoiler +There was a game in WCS last year(I think, not sure) where a Protoss went gas - gate to fake proxy oracle(or something) because pro players click on geysers to check how many gas was mined. The Terran player then scouted like a madman for proxy building which was not on the map because Protoss went full greed. Casters smartly said that they expect a lot of sad protoss players on ladder because standard low level player do not check the mined gas thus they won't be fooled sOs does similar things but on much higher level Can you be a bit more precise, e.g. give examples for such decisions based on the final series? I very well think there are pretty clear patterns. not that I'm superfamiliar with every tiny decision in his play which I guess is what PtitDrogo means, but the general direction of his plays is not that hard retrace I think. Well as I stated, I cannot see why is he doing some builds and decisions and it is actually hard for everyone to see. Though in these games he went almost every time blink/sentry, which as its pattern pretty clear. I meant in general. E.g. Life has blind spore crawlers almost every game and even though he goes for DTs twice. Why? He goes airtoss carrier storm in TvP agains jjakji(?) and wins, he haven't done that after the series. OK, the map was huge and OK, jjakji isn't the best Terran out there but still... what did he saw, why did he went for that build? Some of his decisions are simply weird, but I think there has to be some reasoning behind them which only sOs knows. And I believe the reasoning is actually pretty good because when he reads the subtle signs well he wins in an extraordinary fashion. But sometimes he reads them wrong and he fails miserably I think sOs just has a ton of builds. Sometimes they even feel a tad bit weaker than when played by masters of those builds (e.g Parting would hit that Soultrain with 3immortals and extraordinary prism micro sometimes up to 20seconds faster, see for example his build in the 2013 proleague showmatches), but given the amount of prepartion play by Koreans it must be extremely hard to play sOs for them.
i don't think he has a tonne of builds. they are not set builds and so they appear weaker than a close approximation of someone else's build you've seen be pulled off 1000X in a row by someone else... which is why he has no problems stirring up crazy shit at the start of a match.
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On November 10 2015 07:10 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2015 04:39 Ansibled wrote:
People who want to hide spoilers from everywhere are so incredibly annoying, maybe if you don't want to be spoiled don't look at community websites until after you watched the VoDs.
And where are the VODS ? Community websites ! Man you are a genius. Well i won't watch it then. Would have pisses me off though
https://www.youtube.com/user/WCSStarCraft
http://www.sc2tube.com
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Probably great games. I hate those morons who put the results in the news on the main page.
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EPT
