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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:32 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:12 geokilla wrote:
Here KeSPA goes again. In a way I support this request but I feel they're going too far with it. What if I'm a full time streamer like MC? I'm not a competitive progamer anymore. Just a pro streamer who streams when I'm not busy with real life. If you still want to watch me stream and you enjoy it, nothing wrong with that. I think. Full time streaming is EXACTLY why I side with Kespa here. Yoda should NOT be allowed to make a living out of Starcraft now that this has come out. For that matter, if they want to ban the BW match fixers who now do the same thing, I would welcome it.
Well, in this case the matchfixing players are able to make living of the game only because followers of said game ARE watching them. Stop watching them, case closed. Obviously there are people who give no fuck about this and they want to watch them. Get over it.
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I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On October 20 2015 17:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote:and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community.
Ehm, they seeded YoDa into GSL or what are you talking about?
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On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote:
I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.
Kespa is a NGO, not a private for-profit company.
they have no jurisdiction outside of their own tournaments
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I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.
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On October 20 2015 17:42 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 17:33 BeStFAN wrote:On October 20 2015 17:19 Probemicro wrote:On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote:
not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money? it would not be first time that there is embargo, even against player wishes the scene isn't really well-off, they don't have that kind of luxury only blizzard can do something
star2 scene is relatively unimportant for kespa
it is black eye for all team, and for kespa that they have associated with PRIME for now years in proleague (which mean loyal fans regularly see games that are manipulated)
compared to widespread suspicion about scene, the number arrested is relatively small. there will continue to be suspicion.
this means that kespa now has bad image, justified or not.
if they allow kespa player to play in afreeca gsl, it makes them vulnerable to further damage.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.
Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? 
(well they are, but still...)
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if it does become embargo-fight, kespa has more leverage because gsl would not be able to function with almost all player being kespa player.
kespa keep player in line
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On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.
Some people have really brilliant legal thinking. Sure, KeSPA can try to sue them for damage, no problem. But in what world you live, where an employer can retroactively take back employee's salary on his own decision?
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I find it hilariously cute how extremist asian countries are able to convince 1st world countries that making a bet on a video game is such a heinous crime. Sheep.
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On October 20 2015 18:15 gyrus wrote:
I find it hilariously cute how extremist asian countries are able to convince 1st world countries that making a bet on a video game is such a heinous crime. Sheep.
:/ they don't care about other country lol
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On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...)
Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.
On October 20 2015 18:14 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Some people have really brilliant legal thinking. Sure, KeSPA can try to sue them for damage, no problem. But in what world you live, where an employer can retroactively take back employee's salary on his own decision?
I have no idea if it's legally viable, never claimed such. Just spit balling.
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On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:
Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.
i do not think anyone disagree that it is bad...
but it is weird to read someone on computer saying that young men with computer and parents should be grateful for basic needs, when other question whether it is basically proper labor condition
and there is huge opportunity cost for (mostly) smart young mind to sleep and eat play game and not get education or compensation or job experience.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.
When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low.
That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier 
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On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote:
I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.
Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members.
The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups.
In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age"
So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
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On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote:
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
smooth
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On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote:
I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right.
I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot.
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France9034 Posts
This is completely uncalled for. They are banned from pro-gaming. That's enough. they won't be able to ever do that again. That's the point.
Now if they want to stream, and they still got fans after being convicted, that is because they're doing something right, be it skill-wise or entertainment-wise, something that appeal to these fans, and they deserve to keep these fans and w/e money they can make out of that stream. This is bullshit, seriously...
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On October 20 2015 18:53 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote:
I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right. I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot.
Its the same(or similar) in Sweden, basically no one is ever refused service, the reasons are likely many but in the rare chance that it does happen everyone goes crazy and state that its not allowed. Its practically never done to the extent that everyone thinks its against the law but it actually isn't. Sounds like its similar in our countries, that it is not done however does not mean that its strictly agains the law.
These kinds of situations come up sometimes though like a company can refuse a job if they see it will be too much work to be worth it or if it would rather cost them more than they would make. Companies do have great freedoms by the law but fear(for discrimination charges) and reputation loss keeps them from using it.
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EPT
