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On October 16 2015 05:44 Steelo_Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. or foreign players can just get good and quit complaining about people being better than them. Korean players and created the same way everyone else in the world is. I don't understand why people even make this a thing. iirc, Korean players rarely ever played with foreign players in BW and now all people can do is complain about how their lack of skill shows when they're up against their Korean brethren.
The thing is the complete foreign scene is a mess. I'd rather WCS be completely foreigner to grow the game's viewership internationally.
There's a reason why none of the established big Western orgs haven't touched SC2. There's not enough marketable foreigners that can place well, and the competition is extremely daunting for any Western pro to try.And when they acquire a Korean ringer, they end up sucking after a few months anyway.
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Back to the foreigner scene for DRG. He smells that easy foreigner money because if someone like lil bow can win WCS it would be a walk in the park for DRG.
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incoming TCM.DRG with DRG being part of the new TCM PL team
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On October 16 2015 07:08 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. So, basically, sacrifice ForGG, JaeDong, Polt and Hydra? (and maybe others I missed, do not follow WCS for foreigners) and lower even more the foreigner skill. Cool, I am OK with that, at least they will re-broadcast Korean leagues when EU/NA will become pathetic.
I think Polt has gotten enough easy foreigner money, let a few foreigners who haven't won that much win a few WCS titles. lil bow is a start, but I think we need more foreign winners.
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this is so stupid
Blizzard needs to make a choice, Koreans in WCS or not. I personally want to see the highest level of games everywhere which means Koreans in every region but having them not make a hard line decision is what's really killing the scene
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China6326 Posts
The Koreans still don't understand the fact that not any team can get you into WCS easily like EG/Root.
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On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2.
Agree. Last season Lilbow winning was great.
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51323 Posts
sigh, we're going to go back to wcs 2013-14 again.
even visas can't stop the influx of mediocre korean players going to america/europe to take foreign money.
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On October 16 2015 06:00 UberNuB wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 05:44 Steelo_Rivers wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. or foreign players can just get good and quit complaining about people being better than them. Korean players and created the same way everyone else in the world is. I don't understand why people even make this a thing. iirc, Korean players rarely ever played with foreign players in BW and now all people can do is complain about how their lack of skill shows when they're up against their Korean brethren. It's less the foreign players complaining and more the foreign audience. It's just less interesting (to me, and many others) watching Koreans who have little to no personality play each other. While there are obviously some who only want to see the absolutely top level play, I would rather see familiar faces play and better story lines. There was more hype around IdrA vs Jinro (even though the series ended up being terrible .. T__T) than Hydra vs ForGG will ever have.
Well in their time, IdrA and Jinro were some of the best around (Even by Korean Standards). They were more than familiar faces, they were good players who actually practiced and developed play styles that worked instead of just copying builds that other player do.
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mYi make the move pls! :D
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On October 16 2015 08:20 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 05:44 Steelo_Rivers wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. or foreign players can just get good and quit complaining about people being better than them. Korean players and created the same way everyone else in the world is. I don't understand why people even make this a thing. iirc, Korean players rarely ever played with foreign players in BW and now all people can do is complain about how their lack of skill shows when they're up against their Korean brethren. The thing is the complete foreign scene is a mess. I'd rather WCS be completely foreigner to grow the game's viewership internationally. There's a reason why none of the established big Western orgs haven't touched SC2. There's not enough marketable foreigners that can place well, and the competition is extremely daunting for any Western pro to try.And when they acquire a Korean ringer, they end up sucking after a few months anyway.
sorry to break it to you but that's not going to fucking grow the game's viewership internationally. You guys can theorycraft all you want. It's not going to change shit.
No the reason why people like MLG don't touch it is because of the WCS alone and the fact of the matter SC2's time is up with them. They're focused on other things.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 16 2015 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 07:08 deacon.frost wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. So, basically, sacrifice ForGG, JaeDong, Polt and Hydra? (and maybe others I missed, do not follow WCS for foreigners) and lower even more the foreigner skill. Cool, I am OK with that, at least they will re-broadcast Korean leagues when EU/NA will become pathetic. Would it lower the average skill short term? Yeah sure, but that misses the point. The idea is to have a competetive foreigner scene which actually wants to become better and has the chance to do so. Which means that players need the stability to go fulltime if they are good enough to try that step. Right now that is not the case. How can a potential sc2 ladder hero even be motivated to try the next step when he has to play vs some korean progamer in wcs qualifiers?
It won't change without viewers! Right now we can theorycraft we like, but the fact is that there are not that many people who like to watch only foreigners fighting themselves.
Without viewers others than Blizzard don't have any reason to invest the money. There's a reason why the last DH was Thu/Fri and not during the weekend... I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if WCS World would be profitable for Blizzard at all.
Region lock will only make things worse IMO. Numbers will decline even more, because, frankly, there are only like 8 foreigners who are interesting enough to watch their games and don't laugh or feel bored.
The most funny part about this is that the biggest numbers we get is when foreigner is playing a "bad" Korean so he has a chance for a win. And by the strict region lock we will lose these numbers for WCS and therefore other investors will see another decline in numbers in the highest league outside of Korea(which is where they do the tournaments most of the time).
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Why is it that so many Koreans just do these things without huge amounts of research first? Like, you have a secured team (aka, a secured job!), yet you abandon that in the hopes of finding a foreign one? While I think it's possible he will find a team willing to do what he is interested in... It's not exactly a sure thing. Hopefully Korean teams will be interested in picking him back up if this does not turn out well.
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On October 16 2015 14:53 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 08:20 lestye wrote:On October 16 2015 05:44 Steelo_Rivers wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. or foreign players can just get good and quit complaining about people being better than them. Korean players and created the same way everyone else in the world is. I don't understand why people even make this a thing. iirc, Korean players rarely ever played with foreign players in BW and now all people can do is complain about how their lack of skill shows when they're up against their Korean brethren. The thing is the complete foreign scene is a mess. I'd rather WCS be completely foreigner to grow the game's viewership internationally. There's a reason why none of the established big Western orgs haven't touched SC2. There's not enough marketable foreigners that can place well, and the competition is extremely daunting for any Western pro to try.And when they acquire a Korean ringer, they end up sucking after a few months anyway. sorry to break it to you but that's not going to fucking grow the game's viewership internationally. You guys can theorycraft all you want. It's not going to change shit. No the reason why people like MLG don't touch it is because of the WCS alone and the fact of the matter SC2's time is up with them. They're focused on other things.
It's certainly more likely than whatever the hell WCS has been doing the last few years. Korean ringers having 0 marketable players doesn't do shit for the scene. Look at what happened with Lilbow when he won WCS last season. He scored his team recognition from France as well as score a telecom sponsorship.
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On October 16 2015 17:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 16 2015 07:08 deacon.frost wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. So, basically, sacrifice ForGG, JaeDong, Polt and Hydra? (and maybe others I missed, do not follow WCS for foreigners) and lower even more the foreigner skill. Cool, I am OK with that, at least they will re-broadcast Korean leagues when EU/NA will become pathetic. Would it lower the average skill short term? Yeah sure, but that misses the point. The idea is to have a competetive foreigner scene which actually wants to become better and has the chance to do so. Which means that players need the stability to go fulltime if they are good enough to try that step. Right now that is not the case. How can a potential sc2 ladder hero even be motivated to try the next step when he has to play vs some korean progamer in wcs qualifiers? It won't change without viewers! Right now we can theorycraft we like, but the fact is that there are not that many people who like to watch only foreigners fighting themselves. Without viewers others than Blizzard don't have any reason to invest the money. There's a reason why the last DH was Thu/Fri and not during the weekend... I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if WCS World would be profitable for Blizzard at all. Region lock will only make things worse IMO. Numbers will decline even more, because, frankly, there are only like 8 foreigners who are interesting enough to watch their games and don't laugh or feel bored. The most funny part about this is that the biggest numbers we get is when foreigner is playing a "bad" Korean so he has a chance for a win. And by the strict region lock we will lose these numbers for WCS and therefore other investors will see another decline in numbers in the highest league outside of Korea(which is where they do the tournaments most of the time).
Is this actually proven? That foreigners alone don't get numbers? When was the last time we actually had a big event with foreigners only? Some weekly online cup shouldn't count for obvious reasons.
Obviously WCS would need to build these foreign players and make stars out of them. We need hype interviews, videos, etc
Kinda like LCS
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On October 16 2015 17:07 Blargh wrote:
Why is it that so many Koreans just do these things without huge amounts of research first? Like, you have a secured team (aka, a secured job!), yet you abandon that in the hopes of finding a foreign one? While I think it's possible he will find a team willing to do what he is interested in... It's not exactly a sure thing. Hopefully Korean teams will be interested in picking him back up if this does not turn out well.
perhaps they realize life goes on after sc2 and think it's worth the "risk" to travel and have fun? perhaps they don't expect a computer game to pay the bills forever and do what excites them, perhaps their self worth doesn't depend on being a top 20 kespa gosu
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On October 16 2015 17:00 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 16 2015 07:08 deacon.frost wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. So, basically, sacrifice ForGG, JaeDong, Polt and Hydra? (and maybe others I missed, do not follow WCS for foreigners) and lower even more the foreigner skill. Cool, I am OK with that, at least they will re-broadcast Korean leagues when EU/NA will become pathetic. Would it lower the average skill short term? Yeah sure, but that misses the point. The idea is to have a competetive foreigner scene which actually wants to become better and has the chance to do so. Which means that players need the stability to go fulltime if they are good enough to try that step. Right now that is not the case. How can a potential sc2 ladder hero even be motivated to try the next step when he has to play vs some korean progamer in wcs qualifiers? It won't change without viewers! Right now we can theorycraft we like, but the fact is that there are not that many people who like to watch only foreigners fighting themselves. Without viewers others than Blizzard don't have any reason to invest the money. There's a reason why the last DH was Thu/Fri and not during the weekend... I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if WCS World would be profitable for Blizzard at all. Region lock will only make things worse IMO. Numbers will decline even more, because, frankly, there are only like 8 foreigners who are interesting enough to watch their games and don't laugh or feel bored. The most funny part about this is that the biggest numbers we get is when foreigner is playing a "bad" Korean so he has a chance for a win. And by the strict region lock we will lose these numbers for WCS and therefore other investors will see another decline in numbers in the highest league outside of Korea(which is where they do the tournaments most of the time).
As much as I hate the region lock, I cannot agree:
People watched WCS all the year more then WCS US and EU last year. Not because of 5 koreans there, but because of 27 foreigners there. People want locals even when they dont show great games. You and me, loving the high stakes, loving the greatest games, the greatest plays, who understand that Koreans are never "faceless" nor less interesting then foreigners, we will allways be against the region lock. But we are a minority it seems.
I loved the days I could go to cologne and just watch San, MMA, Patience, Golden, Jjakji, Stardust, ForGG, MC, Hyun (at least 1 time), First and Yoda. On top of that I also saw Snute, Bunny, Vortex and many more.
I loved what WCS became, bringing the Koreans in the world, to the fans. Who says these guys dont build storys and are faceless, is a arrogant retard. It is the same to say players like Bunny, Mana or Snute are faceless boring, because they dont BM, they dont behave like asshole but as nice and calm guys. But thats completly not true.
I loved that WCS 2014 year, all these strong players direclty in front of me. But it is not how the majority wants it. They want local heros, local players who show what they can. The viewership has shown it.
And Esport does not need to directly generate money, LCS (where more and more koreans play in foreign teams and kick foreign asses) does not make money, but it brings more people into the game. And yeah WCS 2014 and IEM Worlds 2015 had the best viewer numbers ever. It is not like nobody wants to watch top koreans, but it seems only for weekenders. And not to be reminded how much foreigners are behind em.
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Czech Republic12128 Posts
On October 16 2015 23:28 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 17:00 deacon.frost wrote:On October 16 2015 07:35 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 16 2015 07:08 deacon.frost wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. So, basically, sacrifice ForGG, JaeDong, Polt and Hydra? (and maybe others I missed, do not follow WCS for foreigners) and lower even more the foreigner skill. Cool, I am OK with that, at least they will re-broadcast Korean leagues when EU/NA will become pathetic. Would it lower the average skill short term? Yeah sure, but that misses the point. The idea is to have a competetive foreigner scene which actually wants to become better and has the chance to do so. Which means that players need the stability to go fulltime if they are good enough to try that step. Right now that is not the case. How can a potential sc2 ladder hero even be motivated to try the next step when he has to play vs some korean progamer in wcs qualifiers? It won't change without viewers! Right now we can theorycraft we like, but the fact is that there are not that many people who like to watch only foreigners fighting themselves. Without viewers others than Blizzard don't have any reason to invest the money. There's a reason why the last DH was Thu/Fri and not during the weekend... I don't have any numbers but I would be surprised if WCS World would be profitable for Blizzard at all. Region lock will only make things worse IMO. Numbers will decline even more, because, frankly, there are only like 8 foreigners who are interesting enough to watch their games and don't laugh or feel bored. The most funny part about this is that the biggest numbers we get is when foreigner is playing a "bad" Korean so he has a chance for a win. And by the strict region lock we will lose these numbers for WCS and therefore other investors will see another decline in numbers in the highest league outside of Korea(which is where they do the tournaments most of the time). As much as I hate the region lock, I cannot agree: People watched WCS all the year more then WCS US and EU last year. Not because of 5 koreans there, but because of 27 foreigners there. People want locals even when they dont show great games. You and me, loving the high stakes, loving the greatest games, the greatest plays, who understand that Koreans are never "faceless" nor less interesting then foreigners, we will allways be against the region lock. But we are a minority it seems. I loved the days I could go to cologne and just watch San, MMA, Patience, Golden, Jjakji, Stardust, ForGG, MC, Hyun (at least 1 time), First and Yoda. On top of that I also saw Snute, Bunny, Vortex and many more. I loved what WCS became, bringing the Koreans in the world, to the fans. Who says these guys dont build storys and are faceless, is a arrogant retard. It is the same to say players like Bunny, Mana or Snute are faceless boring, because they dont BM, they dont behave like asshole but as nice and calm guys. But thats completly not true. I loved that WCS 2014 year, all these strong players direclty in front of me. But it is not how the majority wants it. They want local heros, local players who show what they can. The viewership has shown it. And Esport does not need to directly generate money, LCS (where more and more koreans play in foreign teams and kick foreign asses) does not make money, but it brings more people into the game. And yeah WCS 2014 and IEM Worlds 2015 had the best viewer numbers ever. It is not like nobody wants to watch top koreans, but it seems only for weekenders. And not to be reminded how much foreigners are behind em.
With all the honesty, I think there are 2 reasons why numbers were higher:
1) SC2 is rising on popularity, not much, but it is getting slowly up
2) They had the chance. WCS NA 2014 was pathetic. We all knew how it would look like and RO16 looked like a Korean tournament. WCS EU was closer to the optimal tournament, foreigners in RO8 with a theoretical chance for a win.
But more restricting region lock? Like seriously? Does it mean that a Canadian player studying in Europe cannot play WCS EU? Or do we just restrict only Koreans?
And again - the biggest numbers we get is for a match where a foreigner is playing a bad Korean, so he has a chance for a win. This is what was happening in WCS EU 2014.
Faceless Koreans - why is this still a thing? We are talking about Captain America! About ForGG who is known across Europe, about JD who is known and loved across the world. Not sure how well recognized are Hydra and Violet. Right now all the Koreans in WCS World are not faceless, Hydra is getting up there and DRG is not faceless too. First, Yoda, Patience etc. these were faceless but now the situation is different.
I am totally OK with harsh region lock, I just don't think it will help the scene. I found the actual restrictions enough. You cannot just fly in, cash the money, fly out. You have to be here and live here.
Do we really want to lose other people? We already lost MC! Do we need to lose ForGG, Polt or JD? Do we really want that?
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On October 16 2015 17:45 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 14:53 StarStruck wrote:On October 16 2015 08:20 lestye wrote:On October 16 2015 05:44 Steelo_Rivers wrote:On October 16 2015 01:50 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I hope WCS gets a full region lock next year, i am one of the biggest korean fanboys here on TL, but this simply destroys ANY chance for the foreign scene, which is probably bad for sc2. or foreign players can just get good and quit complaining about people being better than them. Korean players and created the same way everyone else in the world is. I don't understand why people even make this a thing. iirc, Korean players rarely ever played with foreign players in BW and now all people can do is complain about how their lack of skill shows when they're up against their Korean brethren. The thing is the complete foreign scene is a mess. I'd rather WCS be completely foreigner to grow the game's viewership internationally. There's a reason why none of the established big Western orgs haven't touched SC2. There's not enough marketable foreigners that can place well, and the competition is extremely daunting for any Western pro to try.And when they acquire a Korean ringer, they end up sucking after a few months anyway. sorry to break it to you but that's not going to fucking grow the game's viewership internationally. You guys can theorycraft all you want. It's not going to change shit. No the reason why people like MLG don't touch it is because of the WCS alone and the fact of the matter SC2's time is up with them. They're focused on other things. It's certainly more likely than whatever the hell WCS has been doing the last few years. Korean ringers having 0 marketable players doesn't do shit for the scene. Look at what happened with Lilbow when he won WCS last season. He scored his team recognition from France as well as score a telecom sponsorship.
Just to precise, the Orange sponsorship was planned way before Lilbow's victory. Things like this take months.
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EPT
