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Do we really want to lose other people? We already lost MC! Do we need to lose ForGG, Polt or JD? Do we really want that?
If it is necessary to build a foreign scene, then it is something we have to do i guess. Is there an interested for a strong foreign scene? That is imo the only real question. You either have koreans winnig everything with a few foreigners here and there being able to compete somewhat, or we have a foreign scene which can get better over time (long term) when there is motivation for players to try to go fulltime sc2.
edit: Notice that i am a big JD fan, but if he cannot compete in korea, well then he still has the options to go to weekend tournaments and maybe play in proleague.
All options foreigners don't really have either.
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uuh there are players that are better than the ones of my country. Pls blizzard, make the players from my country able to win more. It's unfair that they get knocked out by better players who practice more, he's from my country so he deserves more success than better players from other countries.
On October 17 2015 00:45 The_Red_Viper wrote:
edit: Notice that i am a big JD fan, but if he cannot compete in korea, well then he still has the options to go to weekend tournaments and maybe play in proleague.
All options foreigners don't really have either.
I didn't know foreigners aren't allowed to play in weekend tourneys or in PL.
Hell they are even allowed to play in gsl although koreans aren't allowed to play in WCS.
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I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand?
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
I think the biggest take from this is he wants to play at least one season of WCS I thought he was retiring this year :D
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With Guild Wars 2 getting a 400.000$ ESL Pro League, maybe it is also time for a SC II ESL Pro League here in Europe
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poor drg no home again 
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand?
And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out.
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On October 17 2015 02:14 Clonester wrote:
With Guild Wars 2 getting a 400.000$ ESL Pro League, maybe it is also time for a SC II ESL Pro League here in Europe
Unless it's online, in which case no one would care about just like ATC and SC2ITL, then it's absolutely impossible given the current state of SC2. Most teams don't even have enough members to play a team league, and the ones that do don't have them together outside of TL.
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On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out.
The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder)
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 17 2015 06:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out. The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder)
I think that one's so long-term that it's too late for that, being a pessimist for once. At least I don't think it's a realistic way to ever decrease the skill gap by the amount that's "necessary". The Koreans weren't just playing ladder either, they helped with tournament practice, too, and they were on average still better than the high level foreigners (especially Hydra in-form is a landslide above pretty much everyone in WCS and his results in Korea never went past average).
So you probably have long-term gain for the scene/the fans/the teams outside of Korea, but the individual players I'm not so sure. I guess the best ones go practice in Korea if they feel they can't improve here? Because I doubt we ever establish KeSPA-like training regiments and a Proleague system.
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On October 17 2015 06:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 02:14 Clonester wrote:
With Guild Wars 2 getting a 400.000$ ESL Pro League, maybe it is also time for a SC II ESL Pro League here in Europe Unless it's online, in which case no one would care about just like ATC and SC2ITL, then it's absolutely impossible given the current state of SC2. Most teams don't even have enough members to play a team league, and the ones that do don't have them together outside of TL.
Why should nobody care? Does nobody care about the over 9000 CS:GO leagues (which are all played online?)
If we say, Blizzard would finance a ESL ProLeague like ArenaNet with Guildwars 2, so 400k per Season, maybe 2 Seasons a year, Teams all over Europe would invest heavy into the Scene. To get SC II pro players is not that expensive, it is online played and only the playoffs are played over a time. Bo7 ProLeague Format. Strickt play-days, penaltys for missing players and so on what makes a league professionel.
It is not compareable to ATC or SC2ITL: ATC was 20k, 20 times less then the Guild Wars 2 Pro League, SC2ITL even less. And both with less strict rules, smaller finals and so on.
You dont need to have your teams togeather to practice. Hell most strong CS:GO Teams just meet during bootcamps and tournaments and do not live togeather. Thats not a problem at all. It is the money that was allways missing for such a move. But money shouldnt be an option when you can share down over 600k for WCS Europe+someothers.
Why would nobody watch? Because XYZ Foreigner against ABC Foreigner? They also meet at WCS and people watch it.
No teams? With so much money on the line, teams could easily pick up players left and right and even give them some sort of (small payment).
Companys like Valve, ArenaNet, 343Industries/Microsoft dump money after money in Leagues to obtain a healthy scene and market their games, while Blizzard was allways shy about it. Yes, they sponsort WCS with over 1M per year for the complete year: (3 Seasons WCS, GSL, SSL + Global Finals). But thats much less then other companys investet into their game per year, LoL, Dota, CS:GO (yes they have more viewers and players) but it still stands.
A serious made SC II Europeen ProLeague would bring the strong structure for the foreigner, the constant money flow the foreigners would need (not only some tournamentmoney, but a possible (low) monthly income) and the practice arena with strong team structures. It was a missplay to not intro
On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder)
Thats just plain disrespect for player like Hyun, MC, MMA, Patience, Golden and more. As the WCS EU champ of 2014 was also the blizzcon runner-up.
And what after you build up the scene from the ground? It is 2023 and Warcraft IV goes into the alpha? The scene is build up and finds out it is now more behind then ever before? Especially when the money from WCS Europe+someothers is enough for the scene to not die, but not enough to breath and live. And for breathing and living, Blizzard would have to invest much more.
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On October 17 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out. The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder) I think that one's so long-term that it's too late for that, being a pessimist for once. At least I don't think it's a realistic way to ever decrease the skill gap by the amount that's "necessary". The Koreans weren't just playing ladder either, they helped with tournament practice, too, and they were on average still better than the high level foreigners (especially Hydra in-form is a landslide above pretty much everyone in WCS and his results in Korea never went past average). So you probably have long-term gain for the scene/the fans/the teams outside of Korea, but the individual players I'm not so sure. I guess the best ones go practice in Korea if they feel they can't improve here? Because I doubt we ever establish KeSPA-like training regiments and a Proleague system.
Well yes maybe it is already too late, that might be the case, but i still would rather try that than say "fk it not worth it".
The idea is that more people are actually motivated to go fulltime/tryhard into sc2. Right now players with potential probably won't do that because there really isn't ANY noteworthy competition without koreans.
If you have to play vs a korean your chances to get any money are pretty low. Why even bother then to try hard?
This isn't about lazyness or anything, it's about having a fair chance to develop as a player/scene.
I don't know if enough people would be interested in a foreign only wcs, but at that point it is also part of the production, we need hype foreigner content, build some stars, people will get interested in it imo.
That also would probably help weekend tournaments, because foreigners wouldn't play koreans all the time, it would be more hype (if used correctly)
But yeah, maybe we are already too late for it, but LOTV is the last sc2 instalment, when we don't try it now when then? :D
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Of course you'd say try it because you're not going to be the one fronting half a million.
There's already too many tournaments, the best thing is for Blizzard to mediate the times of such tournaments to prevent clashes and giving peak viewers to each individual tournament.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 17 2015 07:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 06:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out. The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder) I think that one's so long-term that it's too late for that, being a pessimist for once. At least I don't think it's a realistic way to ever decrease the skill gap by the amount that's "necessary". The Koreans weren't just playing ladder either, they helped with tournament practice, too, and they were on average still better than the high level foreigners (especially Hydra in-form is a landslide above pretty much everyone in WCS and his results in Korea never went past average). So you probably have long-term gain for the scene/the fans/the teams outside of Korea, but the individual players I'm not so sure. I guess the best ones go practice in Korea if they feel they can't improve here? Because I doubt we ever establish KeSPA-like training regiments and a Proleague system. Well yes maybe it is already too late, that might be the case, but i still would rather try that than say "fk it not worth it". The idea is that more people are actually motivated to go fulltime/tryhard into sc2. Right now players with potential probably won't do that because there really isn't ANY noteworthy competition without koreans. If you have to play vs a korean your chances to get any money are pretty low. Why even bother then to try hard? This isn't about lazyness or anything, it's about having a fair chance to develop as a player/scene. I don't know if enough people would be interested in a foreign only wcs, but at that point it is also part of the production, we need hype foreigner content, build some stars, people will get interested in it imo. That also would probably help weekend tournaments, because foreigners wouldn't play koreans all the time, it would be more hype (if used correctly) But yeah, maybe we are already too late for it, but LOTV is the last sc2 instalment, when we don't try it now when then? :D
Yeah sure, but I think Koreans aren't really just ahead in their general skill. They already have all the infrastructure set up. A "random" GM that gets picked up by a Korean team has an better chance of going pro successfully than a random GM on EU/NA I think. Even the public reception of successful players. Flash and Boxer became national heroes by playing SC. sOs's image is on an airplane. They're celebrities. The biggest companies of the country have eSports teams, in different games even. And I think we're pretty far away from that point.
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On October 17 2015 07:11 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 07:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 06:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out. The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder) I think that one's so long-term that it's too late for that, being a pessimist for once. At least I don't think it's a realistic way to ever decrease the skill gap by the amount that's "necessary". The Koreans weren't just playing ladder either, they helped with tournament practice, too, and they were on average still better than the high level foreigners (especially Hydra in-form is a landslide above pretty much everyone in WCS and his results in Korea never went past average). So you probably have long-term gain for the scene/the fans/the teams outside of Korea, but the individual players I'm not so sure. I guess the best ones go practice in Korea if they feel they can't improve here? Because I doubt we ever establish KeSPA-like training regiments and a Proleague system. Well yes maybe it is already too late, that might be the case, but i still would rather try that than say "fk it not worth it". The idea is that more people are actually motivated to go fulltime/tryhard into sc2. Right now players with potential probably won't do that because there really isn't ANY noteworthy competition without koreans. If you have to play vs a korean your chances to get any money are pretty low. Why even bother then to try hard? This isn't about lazyness or anything, it's about having a fair chance to develop as a player/scene. I don't know if enough people would be interested in a foreign only wcs, but at that point it is also part of the production, we need hype foreigner content, build some stars, people will get interested in it imo. That also would probably help weekend tournaments, because foreigners wouldn't play koreans all the time, it would be more hype (if used correctly) But yeah, maybe we are already too late for it, but LOTV is the last sc2 instalment, when we don't try it now when then? :D Yeah sure, but I think Koreans aren't really just ahead in their general skill. They already have all the infrastructure set up. A "random" GM that gets picked up by a Korean team has an better chance of going pro successfully than a random GM on EU/NA I think. Even the public reception of successful players. Flash and Boxer became national heroes by playing SC. sOs's image is on an airplane. They're celebrities. And I think we're pretty far away from that point.
Well yeah but that is exactly my point. Why should teams try to set up infrastructure for sc2 when it is much easier to just get a korean on the team? Look at the LCS, i hate riot, but the lcs gave teams the chance to slowly build their infrastructure, etc.
Which is why i think some kind of weekly league would actually be the best thing which could happen for foreign sc2, but WCS is the next best bet.
It's also a lot about players who are actualy marketable though, WCS can improve a lot in that department, build storylines and with it star players.
Maybe sc2 is already too small for this step, who knows.
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On October 17 2015 06:50 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 06:31 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On October 17 2015 02:14 Clonester wrote:
With Guild Wars 2 getting a 400.000$ ESL Pro League, maybe it is also time for a SC II ESL Pro League here in Europe Unless it's online, in which case no one would care about just like ATC and SC2ITL, then it's absolutely impossible given the current state of SC2. Most teams don't even have enough members to play a team league, and the ones that do don't have them together outside of TL. Why should nobody care? Does nobody care about the over 9000 CS:GO leagues (which are all played online?) If we say, Blizzard would finance a ESL ProLeague like ArenaNet with Guildwars 2, so 400k per Season, maybe 2 Seasons a year, Teams all over Europe would invest heavy into the Scene. To get SC II pro players is not that expensive, it is online played and only the playoffs are played over a time. Bo7 ProLeague Format. Strickt play-days, penaltys for missing players and so on what makes a league professionel. It is not compareable to ATC or SC2ITL: ATC was 20k, 20 times less then the Guild Wars 2 Pro League, SC2ITL even less. And both with less strict rules, smaller finals and so on. You dont need to have your teams togeather to practice. Hell most strong CS:GO Teams just meet during bootcamps and tournaments and do not live togeather. Thats not a problem at all. It is the money that was allways missing for such a move. But money shouldnt be an option when you can share down over 600k for WCS Europe+someothers. Why would nobody watch? Because XYZ Foreigner against ABC Foreigner? They also meet at WCS and people watch it. No teams? With so much money on the line, teams could easily pick up players left and right and even give them some sort of (small payment). Companys like Valve, ArenaNet, 343Industries/Microsoft dump money after money in Leagues to obtain a healthy scene and market their games, while Blizzard was allways shy about it. Yes, they sponsort WCS with over 1M per year for the complete year: (3 Seasons WCS, GSL, SSL + Global Finals). But thats much less then other companys investet into their game per year, LoL, Dota, CS:GO (yes they have more viewers and players) but it still stands. A serious made SC II Europeen ProLeague would bring the strong structure for the foreigner, the constant money flow the foreigners would need (not only some tournamentmoney, but a possible (low) monthly income) and the practice arena with strong team structures. It was a missplay to not intro
CSGO can have 9000 leagues because CSGO is over 9000 more times popular than SC2 is right now and that's just reality. WCS already costs Blizzard a lot, and Blizzard isn't going to sell $400k worth of copies extra by having a EU Proleague on top of WCS which they already invest millions into. We have to keep in mind that WCS is a marketing tool and a crutch to keep the scene alive after Blizzard realized they fucked up massively and SC2 was dying. Over half of players who buy the game never touch multiplayer, it's for the campaign alone, so I just can't see it ever happening. And especially don't compare it to LoL. LoL makes over a billion dollars are year, any money they put into their scene is negligible to them.
And sadly, I don't believe teams all over Europe would invest heavily into the scene even if it did happen. C9 reportedly had plans to pick up some NA Starcraft players until they realized there were literally none worth picking up who weren't already on a team. There simply isn't enough talent in EU and NA to have more than 8 teams just like Proleague does. Even if 8 teams only had 4 players each, the bare minimum to run something like that, are there even 32 EU and NA players good enough to compete for $400k? WCS already brings money to the foreigner scene. Frankly, it brings way more than the foreign scene deserves. Ro32 at WCS gets you almost $1000 more Ro4 at GSL, despite the fact that no WCS player could ever hope to make Ro4 at GSL. And then we wonder why a guy like DRG wants to switch over hmmmmm I wonder?!
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 17 2015 07:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2015 07:11 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 07:00 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:47 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 06:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:On October 17 2015 06:25 Elentos wrote:On October 17 2015 01:19 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I didn't say they aren't allowed to, but these options aren't really all that viable.
You guys simply have this mindest of "hurr durr, foreigners just need to get better!!"
Well yes they need to improve, but right now it's simply way too hard to do so, is that really so hard to understand? And the solution to it being too hard is to give up on it entirely and seperate foreign and Korean competition, why exactly? What is gained from that? A bigger foreign community? Maybe, but the gap's not gonna get any smaller from that so we might aswell have Blizzcon KR and Blizzcon WCS at that point, to make it fair. And a league for Korean WCS rejects who were willing to leave their home country and culture behind to play in WCS but got kicked out. The idea is to build a foreign scene from the ground, this is a long term solution, not a short term one (like some mediocre koreans playing on the eu/na ladder) I think that one's so long-term that it's too late for that, being a pessimist for once. At least I don't think it's a realistic way to ever decrease the skill gap by the amount that's "necessary". The Koreans weren't just playing ladder either, they helped with tournament practice, too, and they were on average still better than the high level foreigners (especially Hydra in-form is a landslide above pretty much everyone in WCS and his results in Korea never went past average). So you probably have long-term gain for the scene/the fans/the teams outside of Korea, but the individual players I'm not so sure. I guess the best ones go practice in Korea if they feel they can't improve here? Because I doubt we ever establish KeSPA-like training regiments and a Proleague system. Well yes maybe it is already too late, that might be the case, but i still would rather try that than say "fk it not worth it". The idea is that more people are actually motivated to go fulltime/tryhard into sc2. Right now players with potential probably won't do that because there really isn't ANY noteworthy competition without koreans. If you have to play vs a korean your chances to get any money are pretty low. Why even bother then to try hard? This isn't about lazyness or anything, it's about having a fair chance to develop as a player/scene. I don't know if enough people would be interested in a foreign only wcs, but at that point it is also part of the production, we need hype foreigner content, build some stars, people will get interested in it imo. That also would probably help weekend tournaments, because foreigners wouldn't play koreans all the time, it would be more hype (if used correctly) But yeah, maybe we are already too late for it, but LOTV is the last sc2 instalment, when we don't try it now when then? :D Yeah sure, but I think Koreans aren't really just ahead in their general skill. They already have all the infrastructure set up. A "random" GM that gets picked up by a Korean team has an better chance of going pro successfully than a random GM on EU/NA I think. Even the public reception of successful players. Flash and Boxer became national heroes by playing SC. sOs's image is on an airplane. They're celebrities. And I think we're pretty far away from that point. Well yeah but that is exactly my point. Why should teams try to set up infrastructure for sc2 when it is much easier to just get a korean on the team? Look at the LCS, i hate riot, but the lcs gave teams the chance to slowly build their infrastructure, etc. Which is why i think some kind of weekly league would actually be the best thing which could happen for foreign sc2, but WCS is the next best bet. It's also a lot about players who are actualy marketable though, WCS can improve a lot in that department, build storylines and with it star players. Maybe sc2 is already too small for this step, who knows.
Maybe foreign team owners should start threatening their players with mandatory military service.
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Teamliquid DRG
Millenium DRG would please me.
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On October 17 2015 07:34 wjat wrote:
Teamliquid DRG
Millenium DRG would please me.
It's gotta be EG DRG for the double-Dong action.
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EPT
