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ESL announces details of the anti-doping policy - Page 3
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Varanice
United States1517 Posts
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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CheRRyKiTTy
Finland38 Posts
On August 14 2015 01:56 GGzerG wrote: This is more so for FPS games than RTS, being on drugs in RTS isn't going to help very much lol Uh. You probably have never had any drugs. From the top of my head Benzodiazepines and amphetamines (excluding meth) will make you play better in tournament environment maybe some light opiates as well. (Benzos and opiates make you calmer, amphetamines make you more active and concentrated). | ||
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coolman123123
146 Posts
On August 20 2015 04:08 CheRRyKiTTy wrote: Uh. You probably have never had any drugs. From the top of my head Benzodiazepines and amphetamines (excluding meth) will make you play better in tournament environment maybe some light opiates as well. (Benzos and opiates make you calmer, amphetamines make you more active and concentrated). I have used both amphetamines and benzos extensively and I have to disagree. Amphetamines may be helpful for FPS games and for practicing long hours in any game, but what happens is tunnel vision. Adderall makes you "hyperfocus" which is great in an fps, not so great in a game about juggling and multitasking. I severely doubt the performance enhancing abilities of amphetamines in an RTS game. The only benefit I can see is them giving you stamina for a weekend bracket tournament (maybe Taeja used it). As far as benzos, well no. The reduction in nervousness is offset by the reduction in mental clarity they cause. | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
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NonY
8751 Posts
On August 20 2015 04:55 coolman123123 wrote: I have used both amphetamines and benzos extensively and I have to disagree. Amphetamines may be helpful for FPS games and for practicing long hours in any game, but what happens is tunnel vision. Adderall makes you "hyperfocus" which is great in an fps, not so great in a game about juggling and multitasking. I severely doubt the performance enhancing abilities of amphetamines in an RTS game. The only benefit I can see is them giving you stamina for a weekend bracket tournament (maybe Taeja used it). As far as benzos, well no. The reduction in nervousness is offset by the reduction in mental clarity they cause. Benzos aren't even banned. But I think it's weird that you feel comfortable providing such a strong opinion, or at least an opinion without any qualifying statements, on how they may affect performance given your extensive experience with drugs. I'm sure you know everything I'm about to say, but I have to say it to establish what I think is the appropriate context for taking drugs to increase productiveness. People study for years and are tested extensively and make entire careers out of managing drugs for patients, which involves learning about the exact issues the patient is having and choosing from a wide variety of options of drugs and combinations of drugs and dosages and then regularly discussing effects and making adjustments. There are so many variables and the complexity of the problem is so well established (given how much training and testing the psychiatrist must go through just to attempt to solve the problem) that I find it absurd for you to state directly that benzos couldn't possibly provide a net benefit. There is another discussion that could be had: in a theoretical perfect competitor, what natural mental state combined with performance enhancing drugs yields the best results? In that case, I would guess that you'd want the problems that benzos solve to not exist in the first place and so avoid any possible negative side effects. But there's no way of knowing whether a naturally "hyperactive" mind "slowed" by benzos actually would be better than an anxiety-free mind sped up. We know so little about brain chemistry and these issues in general that it's really impossible to speculate. I am absolutely confident that benzos could help some people though. Take an extreme example: a player who can't practice with any regularity without medication. There are people that aren't functioning and can't be productive with any regularity without benzos or other drugs that "slow you down." Certainly they'll win more games when they have the ability to actually practice despite some negative side effects. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I made a reply to this thread earlier and decided to delete it, mainly due to the tone I wrote it in. I'll just jot down my quick responses to ESL's decision to use this policy: (1) It has nothing to do with professionalization. Having rules against taking drugs is no different than having a rule against being late. Either you can enforce rules or you can't. Being able to enforce rules is a prerequisite for professionalization but I see nothing special about this rule. Professionalization isn't literally about being more professional or mimicking things that a body governing a professionalized field has done. I think the author should check Wikipedia for what professionalization means and understand that ESL having a drug policy doesn't bring eSports any closer to it. (2) The policy isn't fair. First, some drugs that actually can improve performance aren't banned. There are drugs that I have taken (legally) that have helped me perform that aren't banned. Either ban all drugs or none, in order to be fair in this respect. Second, people have varying levels of access to medical authorization for taking drugs. If the policy will allow exceptions to be made due to a doctor's note, then this is unfair to people who would also receive a doctor's note but cannot because they live in different circumstances. Are there people who ought to seek medical help but don't or can't who currently are handicapped? Are there people who are mentally healthy but convinced a doctor to give them a performance enhancing drug anyway? How can we possibly know that if, on balance, the existence of this policy makes the competition more fair? ESL seems to imply that it's a given and I think it's light-years from that. (3) Due to my thoughts above, I believe the policy is more of a PR thing than a thing of actual substance. It is a PR move of questionable effectiveness because it brings to people's minds the fact that drug abuse may be taking place when it may not have occurred to them in the first place or they may not have thought it serious enough to warrant taking action. Ignorance was bliss before, but now people think every eSports player is on Adderall like every NFL player is on steroids. And whether it's good PR or not, I don't believe that progress is being made with PR of this nature. Establishing and enforcing this drug policy is just a theater of fairness meant to impress the ignorant. I think it's a 20th century business tactic, that was effective on a generation older than eSports fans, to spend money on appearing to be better rather than spending money on actually becoming better. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
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CheRRyKiTTy
Finland38 Posts
(2) The policy isn't fair. First, some drugs that actually can improve performance aren't banned. There are drugs that I have taken (legally) that have helped me perform that aren't banned. Either ban all drugs or none, in order to be fair in this respect. Second, people have varying levels of access to medical authorization for taking drugs. If the policy will allow exceptions to be made due to a doctor's note, then this is unfair to people who would also receive a doctor's note but cannot because they live in different circumstances. Are there people who ought to seek medical help but don't or can't who currently are handicapped? Are there people who are mentally healthy but convinced a doctor to give them a performance enhancing drug anyway? How can we possibly know that if, on balance, the existence of this policy makes the competition more fair? ESL seems to imply that it's a given and I think it's light-years from that. This is an excellent point. There are doctors who give the patient the drugs they want for a payment. Of course this is illegal, but the risk of being caught is non-existent. You can literally never know if the person holding a prescription has a medical need for the drug unless you know the person. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
This is an excellent point. There are doctors who give the patient the drugs they want for a payment. Of course this is illegal, but the risk of being caught is non-existent. You can literally never know if the person holding a prescription has a medical need for the drug unless you know the person. Possible but extremely rare and irrelevant. In context of esports and drug usage, how do you separate drugs used for medical reasons and drugs used purely for performance enhancement. Description. No way it's possible to enforce "no performance enhaning substances" rule and have they mentioned which drugs are banned? | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1169 Posts
ESL has always been a bad host, and now they prohibit to drink a beer or two... Playing a tournament without drinking a beer with the folks is like having sex without a partner. gtfo esl User was warned for this post | ||
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CheRRyKiTTy
Finland38 Posts
On August 20 2015 20:30 Ryndika wrote: Possible but extremely rare and irrelevant. In context of esports and drug usage, how do you separate drugs used for medical reasons and drugs used purely for performance enhancement. Description. No way it's possible to enforce "no performance enhaning substances" rule and have they mentioned which drugs are banned? I have to disagree with you. The doctors are not rare. I'm Finnish and I have some experience with the drug abuse culture here. People can get a prescription for 3-4 different drugs from more than one private doctor. It's not a rare occurence, just something people do not talk about outside certain social circles. The drug abusers are highly knowledgeable where they can get the prescriptions. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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rikter
United States352 Posts
Adderall, Benzo's and Beta Blockers to me are the three that will actually enhance performance, when dosed properly. Lower doses of Adderall, or any of a number of other synthetic amphetamines really, can give you energy and focus without the "tunnel vision" someone described above which would be helpful in a longer event. Beta Blockers reduce jitters and are used by concert musicians to keep their hands steady, so I'm sure we can see the relevance to SC2; however a teenager would have a harder time getting something like that prescribed. Benzos, at lower doses, can relieve anxiety and might be helpful in a competitive environment as well. I'm pretty sure I've read about pro golfers using benzos or other anti anxiety meds as well. Marijuana is a weird one, it is a stimulant and at proper doses I imagine it could have a positive effect in some people, though in my experience it's not great for competitive events. Cocaine is another one that would be pretty terrible. Opiates could calm you down in a way similar to benzos, and the inflated sense of well-being could also relax the mind and put you in a good state to play. The big thing about stimulants, in my experience, is the effect it has on practice. I used to be big into the Myth RTT series, and I can tell you that a massive percentage of the top players were tweakers, simply because meth and such basically gave them super human endurance that allowed them to play an unreasonable amount of games, which is a great way to improve. Even in CoD, I used to play a lot of Domination with #5, who used his prescription Adderall to also grind out an insane amount of games, which is why he was #5. Basically, the performance enhancing aspects of these substances are real, I have seen them first hand, and I have seen them in others, all over the course of many many years. However, given that the most useful of the bunch (Adderall) is something that would not, under ordinary circumstances, be an issue to legally obtain, the whole thing seems like a bunch of feel-good nonsense, and is ultimately a waste of time and money. | ||
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DrDevice
Canada132 Posts
Don't really want to say much about prescription drugs but I will agree it is not hard to get a prescription from a shady doctor even if there is no actual medical reason for the prescription. This does make things more complicated and more difficult. Some drugs such as Adderall are used by some people use purely recreationally/to enhance game performance but used by other people who actually have medical conditions and they need the drug just to be as functional as an average person would be WITHOUT the drug. Very sticky situation if you ask me. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On August 21 2015 05:51 DrDevice wrote: I am also just laughing my ass off that weed/cannabis would be classified as performance enhancing for anything. Well for any esport anyway. As a frequent cannabis user and an experienced sc2 player I would describe cannabis as extremely performance-inhibiting. Don't really want to say much about prescription drugs but I will agree it is not hard to get a prescription from a shady doctor even if there is no actual medical reason for the prescription. This does make things more complicated and more difficult. Some drugs such as Adderall are used by some people use purely recreationally/to enhance game performance but used by other people who actually have medical conditions and they need the drug just to be as functional as an average person would be WITHOUT the drug. Very sticky situation if you ask me. Unless your esport is watching cartoons on the couch and giggling while eating junk food. THEN pot is a performance enhancing drug. | ||
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Grollicus
Germany287 Posts
Also somewhere out there in the gd studio archive is a story of 2GD where they sent a dutch team manager to buy weed in the US so their Quake pro was hitting better. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On August 21 2015 07:12 Grollicus wrote: Obviously you don't play egoshooters. Some of the best CS players i know were better when high. Also somewhere out there in the gd studio archive is a story of 2GD where they sent a dutch team manager to buy weed in the US so their Quake pro was hitting better. Not sure if they knew it was working or it was just some psychological factor, as some one said above in this topic and I can prove myself, cannabis is slowing u down, it is simply harder to focus on anything since u hear and see things that not even useful at the moment. Even a few cans of energy drink will make u three times better player in comparison to high person. | ||
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NonY
8751 Posts
On August 21 2015 08:00 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Not sure if they knew it was working or it was just some psychological factor, as some one said above in this topic and I can prove myself, cannabis is slowing u down, it is simply harder to focus on anything since u hear and see things that not even useful at the moment. Even a few cans of energy drink will make u three times better player in comparison to high person. I think part of it is that some people "overthink" things and when they are on a drug that removes inhibitions, they can actually end up performing better. Someone who is nervous and anxious and thinking too much and decides to have a ton of caffeine is definitely gonna be in some trouble... I also think some "downer" drugs make it easier to get comfortable despite being in unusual circumstances. Some drugs can help you focus, so distractions don't bother you, but other drugs can make it so you don't care about distractions, so they don't bother you. A routinely taken drug could also just be some arbitrary thing, like chewing gum, that a person has associated with performing and now has a compulsion to do. The actual effects of the drug aren't as important as doing it, like it's a ritual or superstition. | ||
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Varanice
United States1517 Posts
Edit: On August 21 2015 09:10 NonY wrote: I think part of it is that some people "overthink" things and when they are on a drug that removes inhibitions, they can actually end up performing better. Someone who is nervous and anxious and thinking too much and decides to have a ton of caffeine is definitely gonna be in some trouble... I also think some "downer" drugs make it easier to get comfortable despite being in unusual circumstances. Some drugs can help you focus, so distractions don't bother you, but other drugs can make it so you don't care about distractions, so they don't bother you. A routinely taken drug could also just be some arbitrary thing, like chewing gum, that a person has associated with performing and now has a compulsion to do. The actual effects of the drug aren't as important as doing it, like it's a ritual or superstition. Just wanted to say that I think Nony got this down perfectly. I think the issue with a lot of these "bad drugs" is that it removes the thought process behind an action and lets you become more impulsive, meaning in a FPS, better players play better and bad players play worse. | ||
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
However, one important thing to note is that not all drug experiences are the same for everyone. So even if you experimented with a ton of drugs and found that it didn't help, it may have been because your body/brain was used to tougher substances or you are less susceptible to being affected by the drug genetically. A lot of factors go into this but there are performance enhancing drugs out there which aid in playing SC2 and although this may have been a shaky step with the lack of clarification and extensive tests, it is a good one. tl;dr I approve. Note that I have never used Adderall or other substances but I am currently studying health and to be specific, how substances affect our body and our psyche. Edit: On a different tangent this is especially relevant nowadays because students are actually using Adderall and other ADD prescriptions because they find it helps them focus. I actually do know a few friends that do this but I'd just like to say that I highly disapprove of this behavior because it can be damaging. | ||
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