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On August 02 2015 12:46 feardragon wrote:
A strike was given to State and Enderr today for no-showing for the NA Ladder Heroes Monthly Finals. State contacted me about an hour before the event and let me know he would be unable to attend(and I'm very grateful for that since I was able to find GAMETIME to replace him in the event). Enderr I was never able to reach and was dq'd about not being around in time for his match, 10 minutes after the event started.
Wait so why was State given a strike? I feel like if you had ample time to find a replacement then what's the issue? If you couldn't find a replacement I understand but there was one and the event carried on.
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On August 02 2015 13:00 lichter wrote:
you should make a liquipedia page for strikes, for easy reference. actually you should make a liquipedia page for this so people can find info about it easier
I considered doing a Liquidpedia for this but the excel spreadsheet was easier to maintain for organizer's without being editable by anyone else who shouldn't be putting in random info. I'd be grateful if someone wanted to help maintain a synchronized liquidpedia list to the excel spreadsheet but I'm already having trouble remembering to update the liquidpedia for my own events when others aren't helping me with it.
On August 02 2015 13:14 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2015 12:46 feardragon wrote:
A strike was given to State and Enderr today for no-showing for the NA Ladder Heroes Monthly Finals. State contacted me about an hour before the event and let me know he would be unable to attend(and I'm very grateful for that since I was able to find GAMETIME to replace him in the event). Enderr I was never able to reach and was dq'd about not being around in time for his match, 10 minutes after the event started. Wait so why was State given a strike? I feel like if you had ample time to find a replacement then what's the issue? If you couldn't find a replacement I understand but there was one and the event carried on.
So consider this, a replacement was found but it wasn't the "next runner up" for the event. I specifically scheduled the event around all the qualified players' availability, including State. PandaBearMe should have been able to participate in the event before GAMETIME(qualifications for the event are based on points earned throughout the month and PandaBearMe had more than GAMETIME), but was not in a situation where he could play because he was only given an hour's notice. On top of that, this was a somewhat unideal time for the event because if the games were longer, it could have potentially run over the time where players would be qualifying for the next month's qualifying ladder lock for the same event, dampening their chances at qualifying next time because they were playing. This was an unfortunate reality given player availability, including State who is going to be at IEM and really wasn't available any time in the next 2 weeks besides today and yesterday.
So compromises were made to make the event happen at a time that was convenient for his schedule, but he wasn't able to make it. There's nothing personal involved in this. In fact, I really don't enjoy giving strikes. But we have the rules laid out for a reason. We have a minimum amount of time needed to give notice and it wasn't met. I don't think State is a terrible person or want him banned from the online events run by the organizer's in this, but I also don't want to be biased and start letting players I like get away with things whilst punishing players I dislike(don't even know who that would be). It's only his first strike and we stuck with a 3 strike system for a reason.
Missing an event here or there isn't a big deal. Life happens. Missing events consistently is a problem. I hope and want to believe this is the former problem for State. Hope that makes sense.
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On August 02 2015 13:14 chipmonklord17 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2015 12:46 feardragon wrote:
A strike was given to State and Enderr today for no-showing for the NA Ladder Heroes Monthly Finals. State contacted me about an hour before the event and let me know he would be unable to attend(and I'm very grateful for that since I was able to find GAMETIME to replace him in the event). Enderr I was never able to reach and was dq'd about not being around in time for his match, 10 minutes after the event started. Wait so why was State given a strike? I feel like if you had ample time to find a replacement then what's the issue? If you couldn't find a replacement I understand but there was one and the event carried on.
Getting lucky in finding a replacement doesn't mean ample time was given.
Think of the converse: Should a player earn a strike if they give the appropriate (24h or whatever it is) notice and a replacement is not found? No.
Enforcing rules is about consistency, not the result in one particular instance.
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The strike against Enderr has been removed.
I just discussed the situation with him that caused him to miss the tournament, and it was an emergency situation he would like to remain private. The excuse falls under the "immediate emergency" section of the rules, leaving as a reasonable excuse to not earn a strike. He provided evidence of the situation happening so the strike will be removed in accordance to the rules.
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On August 01 2015 23:48 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 21:21 OtherWorld wrote:On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I think just having the players acknowledge that by entering a tournament they have to respect the organizer's terms is enough. It's not "legal" in any ways (as in, there are no laws ruling that), but it doesn't need to be. Kinda like organizers of car races like the NASCAR or the FIA can fine teams & drivers whatever the country without needing a "real" law to be applied. Well, no they can't. They are association based on a country law (french for FIA, USA for nascar), and they can't prosecute in the name of that country, only tell the authority of a contract violation. Any fine given without appearing before a court of law of a representative of the state is void and will be easily overturned should there be a judgement I don't think you understand what a fine is. No one is saying that any tournament would prosecute a player - the enforcement method, like in every other sports or gaming league ever, is that the player/team wouldn't be able to participate further if they didn't pay the fine within a reasonable time.
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Why we limiting this to foreigners?
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On August 03 2015 17:59 TAMinator wrote:
Why we limiting this to foreigners?
It isn't. The OP explains it.
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On August 03 2015 17:59 TAMinator wrote:
Why we limiting this to foreigners?
It's not KeSPA that sits in Kespa Jail, nor is it foreigners that sit in Foreigner Jail.
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On August 03 2015 14:38 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 23:48 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 21:21 OtherWorld wrote:On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I think just having the players acknowledge that by entering a tournament they have to respect the organizer's terms is enough. It's not "legal" in any ways (as in, there are no laws ruling that), but it doesn't need to be. Kinda like organizers of car races like the NASCAR or the FIA can fine teams & drivers whatever the country without needing a "real" law to be applied. Well, no they can't. They are association based on a country law (french for FIA, USA for nascar), and they can't prosecute in the name of that country, only tell the authority of a contract violation. Any fine given without appearing before a court of law of a representative of the state is void and will be easily overturned should there be a judgement I don't think you understand what a fine is. No one is saying that any tournament would prosecute a player - the enforcement method, like in every other sports or gaming league ever, is that the player/team wouldn't be able to participate further if they didn't pay the fine within a reasonable time.
I'm pretty sure I know what a fine is. And no, you can't fine anyone without legal basis, or it's extortion. No matter how small the fine is
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you can't fine anyone without legal basis
Of course you can... I can run a party that imposes a $5 fine for any people who turn up late.... There's no 'legal' basis for that. The people have a choice whether they want to pay the $5, or not come to the party. That's their choice.
If I remove their choice, and say they have to pay $5, otherwise I'll hurt them or people they know. That's extortion.
Sometimes, people are so melodramatic over things... get a grip - this is a scheme to help clean up no-shows at online gaming tournaments in a relatively niche area.
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On August 03 2015 21:32 hZCube wrote:Of course you can... I can run a party that imposes a $5 fine for any people who turn up late.... There's no 'legal' basis for that. The people have a choice whether they want to pay the $5, or not come to the party. That's their choice.
well, yes there is legal basis, and if you do this and someone press charge against you're gonna be in trouble. Not knowing about the law doesn't mean you can do whatever you want.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the whole thing is bad, I'm only saying that fining people at your will is not legal
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On August 03 2015 22:55 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2015 21:32 hZCube wrote:you can't fine anyone without legal basis Of course you can... I can run a party that imposes a $5 fine for any people who turn up late.... There's no 'legal' basis for that. The people have a choice whether they want to pay the $5, or not come to the party. That's their choice. well, yes there is legal basis, and if you do this and someone press charge against you're gonna be in trouble. Not knowing about the law doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the whole thing is bad, I'm only saying that fining people at your will is not legal
So in that party example what's the difference between a fine and charging a higher entrance fee for people who arrive after a certain hour?
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On August 03 2015 22:55 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2015 21:32 hZCube wrote:you can't fine anyone without legal basis Of course you can... I can run a party that imposes a $5 fine for any people who turn up late.... There's no 'legal' basis for that. The people have a choice whether they want to pay the $5, or not come to the party. That's their choice. well, yes there is legal basis, and if you do this and someone press charge against you're gonna be in trouble. Not knowing about the law doesn't mean you can do whatever you want. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the whole thing is bad, I'm only saying that fining people at your will is not legal
You're the one that doesn't know what you're talking about, just like the post above me mentions this is not extortion. If I have a party and ask everyone that comes to pay me 5 dollar for sharing the cost of the food and the drinks. If one person shows up, eats and drinks but doesn't pay.
The next time I have a party I tell him that if he wants to come this time he has to pay 10 dollars since he didn't pay the first time. I impose a fine on him for not paying my initial fee for coming to the party.
This is the same thing as what we are discussing, and no the fact that he "owes" me the 5 dollars from before doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how much you owe someone demanding their money is still extortion as I am sure you know. All this means is that saying pay/do X or I won't let you Y is not extortion and its not even fining. Its just phrased wrongly, which someone that has any understanding of the law should understand.
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yeah you have no idea how the law works so I'm gonna stop here.
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I've been in court many times, normally as a defense witness. I'm not legally trained, nor bar certified, but I have been involved in multiple cases, and dealt closely with barristers.
Can you show me exactly where it's illegal under law to fine someone in a private situation?
As you made that claim, so the burden of proof is on you to actually provide something that supports what you're saying.
Maybe there's crossed wires, but you almost seemed to imply that any sort of fine is illegal. If that's the case, how do you think libraries fine for late returns, or car rental agencies fine for damage?
Fine's are not illegal.
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Canada13389 Posts
Can we stop discussing the codified legality of privately imposed fines?
Its derailing the thread.
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There are a lot of issues to consider here. I understand that it is hard to support yourself as a professional player in Starcraft 2 and it makes sense to try and take part in as many tournaments as possible.
The organisers in the alliance can be said to run good events and be trustworthy, however many players are still going to want to sign up to tournaments run by people not in the alliance.
There are many reasons for a game to be missed and a tournament to be off schedule. Such as a player does not show up which can negatively impact the show. or there are technical difficulties, or the organisers are inexperienced and run into problems that they were not prepared for. Travel arrangements for live events or even just to get home being disrupted and causing players to miss on-line events, to name a few.
Lets say a player signs up for two online tournaments. The game for tournament 1 is to be played at 5pm, the game for tournament 2 is to be played at 8pm and the player is also trying to consistently run their personal stream starting at 10pm each day.
Tournament 1 is then delayed for any combination of reasons beyond the players control and the game is moved to 8pm. The player then decides to pull out of tournament 1 and play the game for tournament 2. Then after making this choice tournament 2 is delayed, again for any combination of reasons and the game is moved to 10pm. Which disrupts and has a negative effect on the player trying to build their own personal stream. All of this also eats into any time to dedicate practice towards a larger event where thousands of dollars could be won instead of hundreds or tens. A player might win nothing at all due to not having the time to practice. On top of all of this they might now get a strike, if a compromise cannot be reached,for pulling out of a tournament with little notice.
It is all connected and delays or things not running to schedule can have this knock on effect which causes others to have to pull out. Everything mentioned about opportunity costs for tournament organisers is also true for players and circumstances or actions that are beyond a players or an organisers control can cause them to have to miss games just as much as a simple mistake.
A solution could be to only sign up for one tournament at a time or for organisers to communicate with one another and not allow players to sign up if they were already playing in another tournament running at similar times. But then is starcraft 2 big enough for a player to establish themselves without playing in as many tournaments as possible?
Likewise do organisers really want to push players into playing in less tournaments and potentially get less 'big' names to take part? Although perhaps them not signing up at all is better than signing up and then pulling out with little notice.
Also with this strike system I suspect the well established players will not care as much. They may not sign up for as many tournaments and focus on their own streams, which has the potential to be more beneficial to them, particularly if they get comparable views for themselves as the part of the tournament that will show them playing.
Or they will focus more on practicing for the larger events, which if they do well in, will bring them greater recognition and attention from sponsors. The less well established players and organisers that are not part of this are going to suffer more.
If many players are missing games for no particular reason better than they forgot, It seems like a worthwhile first step to try and take. It is good that this is committed to a certain level of transparency and they mentioned developing a list for the purpose of punishing organisers for making mistakes and being unprofessional just as this one is designed to punish players for making mistakes and being unprofessional. However are the organisers going to assign strikes to themselves? Or are players going to have to form a group to do that. Which then means even with the best motives for improving Starcraft 2 tournaments and whether intended or not an 'organisers versus players' debate is only going to increase.
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Can we stop discussing the codified legality of privately imposed fines?
Its derailing the thread.
Sorry ZeromuS, I just wanted to clarify that it isn't illegal to fine someone. When someone accuses the thread starter of conducting something that is against the law, I thought it worthwhile to just highlight that in fact TeamLiquid, nor the OPs, are engaging in criminal behaviour with this project.
I think the main problem, comes from the fact that the vast majority of people signing up to these tournaments aren't considering SC2 a career, and so naturally won't be expected to approach it fully professionally at all times. It strikes me that some entrants simply enter for something to do, a way to kill time if you will, and possible earn a little bonus to boot.
If this, as I suspect, is the case - then trying to turn it something 'super professional' isn't really an achievable goal. Fact is, many of these tournament entrants are minors, the vast majority aren't doing this as a serious full time career, and frankly, most of tournaments listed wouldn't even come close to supporting a person financially. So expecting people to be professional in that regard isn't realistic.
If you offer $100k for winning, then sure, make people turn up to the minute/second.
And this is also missing another serious element, if someone does no show three times, and gets a strike - how are you going to stop them playing on alternate smurf accounts? With a lack of accountability in online world (anonymous, multiple accounts) - then really, how are the bans to be enforced?
Oh no, I can't play in a tournament for 9 months, well, $15 buys a new account that bypasses that problem.
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i wonder if some betting sites will start taking wagers on who will end up in Foriegner Jail and when?
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On August 04 2015 01:51 Startyr wrote:
Lots of stuff
I agree with the example you gave. That's why we included this for now:
In the event that a player is playing in multiple events, and is forced to drop out of one, tournament organizers will try to reach a compromise in match playing before issuing a strike.
We very specifically aren't bringing in new members into this "alliance" so that it is a group of people that do tend to pay out in a reasonable amount of time, aren't "out to get players", willing to schedule with others for players in multiple events, etc. In the future, we may make a more concrete ruleset for this, but creating concrete rules for this kind of situation can get messy so we want to see how things play out first so the rules we make are based on reality, not theory.
P.S. Nobody is being fined! Why are people talking about the legality of fines? I don't care if it's legal or illegal because nobody is being fined! I appreciate those trying to give me warning about something I'm doing that could be illegal, as well as those trying to defend my right to do it, but it's not relevant. =[
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EPT
