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On July 28 2015 15:09 feardragon wrote:Hey everyone. This is an f.y.i. that the organization has discussed a lot of the feedback that was given for this initial proposal and we are going to try some changes to the rules before things get rolling based on that feedback. A fairly large number of people, including players, felt that the system was not strict enough. We agreed and decided to find the best way to make the system more effective. Our options were to decrease the number of strikes(most suggested option from the community) from 3 to 2, increase the amount of time a strike would last before expiring from 3 months to something longer, or increase the amount of time a player would spend in jail from 2 months to something longer. Ultimately, we decided the best option was to increase the amount of time a strike would last before expiring from 3 months to 9 months. Reducing the number of strikes a player could get before being put in foreigner jail would also affect players who simply had unfortunate circumstances more, so we wanted to avoid this if possible. Increasing jail time would also make it more likely for players to lose motivation to play the game at all if they didn't qualify for WCS or offline events, which is not the intended purpose of this system. We decided by increasing the amount of time it takes for a strike to expire because this leaves players with a sense of consequence for no-showing and should hopefully disincentivize thoughts that were mentioned in feedback like "I can skip one event a month." Some other smaller changes were made to the rules such as some clarifications about certain situations and edge cases. For example, Nony where a player may have a family/medical emergency but not want it publicly disclosed. If you want to see the new ruleset, you can find it here. I also want to remind everyone that the objective of this system is not to turn this into "organizers versus players". The members of the TOA were selected carefully as reliable organizers who generally aren't the ones "screwing over players" as it's been pointed out. At some point, I personally hope we can start also creating standards for the organizers in this organization as well so that we too will be held accountable for poor player treatment. For now, we don't want to overreach with an already ambitious project. One step at a time. As always, if you have any questions, feel free to leave them here and we'll do our best to address the ones that haven't already been answered or addressed already.
Why not just tell them to kick rocks if they drop your tournament more than once? I'm sure a year or even 6 months of not being able to have the option to play will make them think about it more than two slaps on the wrist they can use anytime they want.
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On July 28 2015 08:22 Thax wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 06:13 Mistakes wrote:
Why isn't Kane's beautiful post Community News? Because a joke and/or a butthurt reaction (I honestly can't tell) generally aren't considered news.
It's a joke. 100%. And I was joking as well. But it seems just as valid is the TOA thing they came up with. Would be funny to see this top news side by side.
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Totally support this. No-shows are the bane of organizer's existence, forever alienating some sponsors. We have to remember this is an industry, with real-life business commitments. If you're a pro, or play on a professional level, this is paramount.
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Critical error: It says Lichter gets out of jail 9/29/2015, not 3015.
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Good idea, unprofessional behavior needs to be punished if "professional" e-sports is ever to be taken seriously. For that reason alone NANIWA deserves to be bull whipped and banned for life.
At any rate, as someone who's been following SC2 tournament casts fairly regularly I have to say that most casters have not been very clear about why people aren't showing up. Simply and consistently and more clearly pointing out unprofessional behavior in a cast would have gone a long way, too.
Having said that, I support the "foreigner jail" idea.
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On July 28 2015 15:27 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2015 10:45 NonY wrote:
(1) Bad name. I get enjoying an inside joke but that only works for something like this if the name, outside of the context of the joke, appears neutral. But "Foreigner Jail" is not neutral. If you are really committing to this then change the name now. I can already picture you guys talking about foreigner jail in a joking manner. Actually I have a hard time picturing a caster talking about it in completely serious tones, and even if they did then 'foreigner jail' will sound out of place every time it's said.
(2) A competitive person reads this system as "I can drop out of two events and then another one every three months, or even sooner than that if I'm not planning to play anymore of these organizers' tournaments for the following two months." Every warning system in any competitive environment is interpreted like that. It's like fouls in basketball. It's part of the game to use them to your advantage as long as you're not getting into foul trouble. I imagine that if players use as many dropouts as you're allowing them to, you'll still feel like there are too many dropouts. If that's the case, make it stricter. edit: Apparently two strikes can decay simultaneously so it's even less strict than I thought. Of course players are going to game this system like there is no tomorrow. If you got a dq on top of a cash fine for not showing up or dropping a tournament then attitudes would change. Players would of course be angry at first but they'd get over it.
A cash fine to players making drastically less then minimum wage should learn them a lesson.
Frankly every time I see the entitlement of people on the internet I laugh a little.
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On July 30 2015 15:29 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 15:27 Baarn wrote:On July 27 2015 10:45 NonY wrote:
(1) Bad name. I get enjoying an inside joke but that only works for something like this if the name, outside of the context of the joke, appears neutral. But "Foreigner Jail" is not neutral. If you are really committing to this then change the name now. I can already picture you guys talking about foreigner jail in a joking manner. Actually I have a hard time picturing a caster talking about it in completely serious tones, and even if they did then 'foreigner jail' will sound out of place every time it's said.
(2) A competitive person reads this system as "I can drop out of two events and then another one every three months, or even sooner than that if I'm not planning to play anymore of these organizers' tournaments for the following two months." Every warning system in any competitive environment is interpreted like that. It's like fouls in basketball. It's part of the game to use them to your advantage as long as you're not getting into foul trouble. I imagine that if players use as many dropouts as you're allowing them to, you'll still feel like there are too many dropouts. If that's the case, make it stricter. edit: Apparently two strikes can decay simultaneously so it's even less strict than I thought. Of course players are going to game this system like there is no tomorrow. If you got a dq on top of a cash fine for not showing up or dropping a tournament then attitudes would change. Players would of course be angry at first but they'd get over it. A cash fine to players making drastically less then minimum wage should learn them a lesson. Frankly every time I see the entitlement of people on the internet I laugh a little.
I can see no legal basis on tournaments admins fining players. it's never gonna happen. Worst they can do is banning them from their tournament
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On July 30 2015 18:32 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2015 15:29 bo1b wrote:On July 28 2015 15:27 Baarn wrote:On July 27 2015 10:45 NonY wrote:
(1) Bad name. I get enjoying an inside joke but that only works for something like this if the name, outside of the context of the joke, appears neutral. But "Foreigner Jail" is not neutral. If you are really committing to this then change the name now. I can already picture you guys talking about foreigner jail in a joking manner. Actually I have a hard time picturing a caster talking about it in completely serious tones, and even if they did then 'foreigner jail' will sound out of place every time it's said.
(2) A competitive person reads this system as "I can drop out of two events and then another one every three months, or even sooner than that if I'm not planning to play anymore of these organizers' tournaments for the following two months." Every warning system in any competitive environment is interpreted like that. It's like fouls in basketball. It's part of the game to use them to your advantage as long as you're not getting into foul trouble. I imagine that if players use as many dropouts as you're allowing them to, you'll still feel like there are too many dropouts. If that's the case, make it stricter. edit: Apparently two strikes can decay simultaneously so it's even less strict than I thought. Of course players are going to game this system like there is no tomorrow. If you got a dq on top of a cash fine for not showing up or dropping a tournament then attitudes would change. Players would of course be angry at first but they'd get over it. A cash fine to players making drastically less then minimum wage should learn them a lesson. Frankly every time I see the entitlement of people on the internet I laugh a little. I can see no legal basis on tournaments admins fining players. it's never gonna happen. Worst they can do is banning them from their tournament They have the same basis as any other tournament or league - pay the fine or you can't play here again.
Not saying it's a good idea, but...
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On August 01 2015 02:11 bduddy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 30 2015 18:32 oGoZenob wrote:On July 30 2015 15:29 bo1b wrote:On July 28 2015 15:27 Baarn wrote:On July 27 2015 10:45 NonY wrote:
(1) Bad name. I get enjoying an inside joke but that only works for something like this if the name, outside of the context of the joke, appears neutral. But "Foreigner Jail" is not neutral. If you are really committing to this then change the name now. I can already picture you guys talking about foreigner jail in a joking manner. Actually I have a hard time picturing a caster talking about it in completely serious tones, and even if they did then 'foreigner jail' will sound out of place every time it's said.
(2) A competitive person reads this system as "I can drop out of two events and then another one every three months, or even sooner than that if I'm not planning to play anymore of these organizers' tournaments for the following two months." Every warning system in any competitive environment is interpreted like that. It's like fouls in basketball. It's part of the game to use them to your advantage as long as you're not getting into foul trouble. I imagine that if players use as many dropouts as you're allowing them to, you'll still feel like there are too many dropouts. If that's the case, make it stricter. edit: Apparently two strikes can decay simultaneously so it's even less strict than I thought. Of course players are going to game this system like there is no tomorrow. If you got a dq on top of a cash fine for not showing up or dropping a tournament then attitudes would change. Players would of course be angry at first but they'd get over it. A cash fine to players making drastically less then minimum wage should learn them a lesson. Frankly every time I see the entitlement of people on the internet I laugh a little. I can see no legal basis on tournaments admins fining players. it's never gonna happen. Worst they can do is banning them from their tournament They have the same basis as any other tournament or league - pay the fine or you can't play here again. Not saying it's a good idea, but...
yeah that's what i'm saying, the player can say "fuck off" and not pay his fine
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I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways.
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On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways.
On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion
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On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion
I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I think just having the players acknowledge that by entering a tournament they have to respect the organizer's terms is enough. It's not "legal" in any ways (as in, there are no laws ruling that), but it doesn't need to be. Kinda like organizers of car races like the NASCAR or the FIA can fine teams & drivers whatever the country without needing a "real" law to be applied.
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so this is the end of Major's career?
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I've been waiting for this.
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On August 01 2015 21:21 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I think just having the players acknowledge that by entering a tournament they have to respect the organizer's terms is enough. It's not "legal" in any ways (as in, there are no laws ruling that), but it doesn't need to be. Kinda like organizers of car races like the NASCAR or the FIA can fine teams & drivers whatever the country without needing a "real" law to be applied.
Well, no they can't. They are association based on a country law (french for FIA, USA for nascar), and they can't prosecute in the name of that country, only tell the authority of a contract violation. Any fine given without appearing before a court of law of a representative of the state is void and will be easily overturned should there be a judgement
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On August 01 2015 23:48 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 21:21 OtherWorld wrote:On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion I'm far from an expert on the matter, but I think just having the players acknowledge that by entering a tournament they have to respect the organizer's terms is enough. It's not "legal" in any ways (as in, there are no laws ruling that), but it doesn't need to be. Kinda like organizers of car races like the NASCAR or the FIA can fine teams & drivers whatever the country without needing a "real" law to be applied. Well, no they can't. They are association based on a country law (french for FIA, USA for nascar), and they can't prosecute in the name of that country, only tell the authority of a contract violation. Any fine given without appearing before a court of law of a representative of the state is void and will be easily overturned should there be a judgement
Hmm ok, I didn't know that. Thanks !
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On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion
I...said we weren't fining them....I'm very confused right now.
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On August 02 2015 03:28 feardragon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2015 20:22 oGoZenob wrote:On August 01 2015 03:45 feardragon wrote:
I really don't have an interest in fining players. Pretty sure the ones that are full time are making little enough as it is and most of the ones that aren't are often times broke college/high school students or not making a lot anyways. On what legal basis can you fine players ? on which jurisdiction ? A private institution fining an individual so he can use its service, I'm pretty sure it's called extortion I...said we weren't fining them....I'm very confused right now.
well, it doesnt really matters what you said, you can't either way ^^
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A strike was given to State and Enderr today for no-showing for the NA Ladder Heroes Monthly Finals. State contacted me about an hour before the event and let me know he would be unable to attend(and I'm very grateful for that since I was able to find GAMETIME to replace him in the event). Enderr I was never able to reach and was dq'd about not being around in time for his match, 10 minutes after the event started.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
you should make a liquipedia page for strikes, for easy reference. actually you should make a liquipedia page for this so people can find info about it easier
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EPT
