EPTArtosis says SC2 is more strategic than BW - Page 5
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 30 2015 15:34 Wildmoon wrote: You being punished hard kinda means the other side is rewarded more for his choice. That being said, there are not a lot of pro games these day that are won or lost by initial build order. There are still some but not a lot comparatively. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a gambling-like, RPS-like, WIFOM choice? It's a reward that is undeserved, as opposed to gathering information and making choices based on that. On June 30 2015 15:45 w3c.TruE wrote: I actually agree with Artosis (as usual). BW skill is much more about mechanics, than about strategy. have you studied both games equally? | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On June 30 2015 15:33 JieXian wrote: Thank you fellow wc3 player. Yes, rps elements are bad and shallow for me too. But if some people like it, it's their choice to play the game they like, we have different tastes. I mean I still like and play sc2, but I am definitely more a fan of winning by executing things better than my opponent instead of surprising my opponent with a strategy, or capitalising on a single mistake he made, to end the game. Edit: To elaborate on that single mistake: In wc3 when I made an army movement mistake I could still TP. Damn now I am 350 gold behind and even lost 1 or 2 units during the port. I am now behind, but the game is not over. Maybe I can still win by playing pefectly from now on? In sc2 I walk my units down a ramp, his army is waiting there and I didn't notice. I get forcefielded and lose most of my army without being able to do anything. Game over. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Uvantak
Uruguay1381 Posts
On June 30 2015 15:05 ppshchik wrote: I agree that map diversity is a huge problem in BW since 90% of the makers host FS or Python, but it has more to do with the outdated ladder system than the game / community itself. Disagree completely. The reason of why FS or Python are played is not in great part caused by the system, but because players simply don't like to torture themselves by needing to adapt to other than the standard maps. This is specially true regarding heavily nonstandard maps, Player and people in general like to blame other things for their mistakes or for not being able to do wherever they want, in BW and SC2 there are not as many escape goats because they are 1v1 games, but one of the very few are the maps. You can clearly see this on not only BW, but SC2, AoEx, or any RTS, where the player base sits around a limited amount of possible map layouts, and when the big core of players are pushed to play on maps outside of this set of layouts/maps gets really uncomfortable. And it is understandable! They are out of their comfort zone. Also, loving the discussion  Just one thing regarding the strategic depth, there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, just like there is an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 50k. Saying that SC2 has more strategic depth is like saying that BW Mech has more strategic depth than BW Bio. Both of them have near infinite strategic possibilities, even when one is more viable than the other. | ||
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looknohands119
United States815 Posts
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w3c.TruE
Czech Republic1055 Posts
No, I have to admit, that I didn't play BW nearly as much as I was playing SC2. But my point of view is, that BW is so much more mechanicaly demanding, than SC2, that there is much less room left for strategy... Mechanics are the main deciding factor in both games, but in BW it's much more true, than in SC2. At least according to my humble opinion  | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On June 30 2015 16:01 Uvantak wrote: Disagree completely. The reason of why FS or Python are played is not in great part caused by the system, but because players simply don't like to torture themselves by needing to adapt to other than the standard maps. This is specially true regarding heavily nonstandard maps, Player and people in general like to blame other things for their mistakes or for not being able to do wherever they want, in BW and SC2 there are not as many escape goats because they are 1v1 games, but one of the very few are the maps. You can clearly see this on not only BW, but SC2, AoEx, or any RTS, where the player base sits around a limited amount of possible map layouts, and when the big core of players are pushed to play on maps outside of this set of layouts/maps gets really uncomfortable. And it is understandable! They are out of their comfort zone. Also, loving the discussion Just one thing regarding the strategic depth, there's an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 2, just like there is an infinite amount of numbers between 1 and 50k. Saying that SC2 has more strategic depth is like saying that BW Mech has more strategic depth than BW Bio. Both of them have near infinite strategic possibilities, even when one is more viable than the other. haha smart words. They also blame the racial imbalance. other blame the game and blizz entirely. Just check out some of the sc2 blogs. On June 30 2015 15:52 Musicus wrote: I mean I still like and play sc2, but I am definitely more a fan of winning by executing things better than my opponent instead of surprising my opponent with a strategy, or capitalising on a single mistake he made, to end the game. Edit: To elaborate on that single mistake: In wc3 when I made an army movement mistake I could still TP. Damn now I am 350 gold behind and even lost 1 or 2 units during the port. I am now behind, but the game is not over. Maybe I can still win by playing pefectly from now on? In sc2 I walk my units down a ramp, his army is waiting there and I didn't notice. I get forcefielded and lose most of my army without being able to do anything. Game over. Okay Well that's actually contrary to what artosis said about strategy, you have to be careful of how you control your units, which I agree that it's needed in SC2.And to me that fragility is definitely not a reason to claim that SC2 is "more strategic" | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oIzhv2o.png) I think in sc2 strategy is more impactful than in BW because the impact of perfect execution is lower. But that does not mean sc2 is more strategic, it just seems this way since execution is less important. Well I think the graph explains what I mean  . | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
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Subversive
Australia2229 Posts
On June 30 2015 16:16 juvenal wrote: lol as if you would be interested in what Marius Copil has to say about tennis. Who is he? #187 in the ATP rankings, yeah that's about where I'd rank Artosis in both bw and sc2. You can't be more strategic with 1ctrl army, just watch the minimap in a game of bw, then in a game of sc2. If he's talking about "strategies" as in crisp timings/attack with a certain composition in a certain location then it's all about execution, so he kinda invalidates his own point. I think 187 is ridiculously high. Probably more like 1187... No that's too high too. But he doesn't need to be a top player to have an opinion or be a good analyst. | ||
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
This whole thread feels like bait, and the fish sure are biting. Well played, Artosis. Causing forum drama is the most strategickest game of all, and he has mastered it. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AQJH3W3.gif) | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/37233_Advokate_vs_Jaedong http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/38937_Androide_vs_Control http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/37503_BoxeR_vs_White-Ra Clearly the game of who's got better mechanics. Also this article might provide some insight: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/226236-god-of-the-battlefield-part-1 | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50630 Posts
On June 30 2015 12:44 Waxangel wrote: But basically I'm posting this just to fish for a response from Rekrul lol | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On June 30 2015 16:28 OtherWorld wrote: I don't even get the point of this thread It's just Wax baiting and an opportunity to post paint graphs and argue! Obviously you can also make fun of Artosis and discredit all his years of SC in a single sentence . | ||
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aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
On June 30 2015 16:33 juvenal wrote: I'll just leave these here as a post scriptum: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/37233_Advokate_vs_Jaedong http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/38937_Androide_vs_Control http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international/games/37503_BoxeR_vs_White-Ra Clearly the game of who's got better mechanics. Also this article might provide some insight: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/final-edits/226236-god-of-the-battlefield-part-1 the sort of people who believe and care about this statement aren't going to be convinced by mere logic | ||
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Chilling5pr33
Germany518 Posts
Adaption Micro and Strategie Speed are the four things describing SC2 for me. So yeah i guess Artosis is right in a way. The thing is i really loved to see tactical Moves from pros and thats what im missing in SC2. (Forward moving Flash was the most beautifull thing in BW) In SC2 Tactics are still rewarding and nice to see but everything is always over so fast. Two good players still create nice games to watch thou. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On June 30 2015 16:15 Musicus wrote: So I had to bust out the paint skills here for one more point: + Show Spoiler + I think in sc2 strategy is more impactful than in BW because the impact of perfect execution is lower. But that does not mean sc2 is more strategic, it just seems this way since execution is less important. Well I think the graph explains what I mean .This graph makes no sense and none of the arguments in this whole thread make any sense. | ||
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Wildmoon
Thailand4189 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it a gambling-like, RPS-like, WIFOM choice? It's a reward that is undeserved, as opposed to gathering information and making choices based on that. There are choices that are gambling and there are ones that are not. There are not a lot of gambling in SC2 at the top anymore. Otherwise you wouldn't see mostly expected faces at the final of GSL. | ||
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