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KeSPA's official statement on match fixing - Page 12

Forum Index > SC2 General
272 CommentsPost a Reply
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Samx
Profile Joined August 2013
Singapore149 Posts
May 11 2015 21:05 GMT
#221
This was the damage to the sport that I was fearing after Kespa/blizzard/MVP did nothing to mkp after the match. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the players. Go forth n fix. See mkp? Blatant as hell, what do we do? Pretend that nothing is happening. Release statements saying all is fine
This would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore.
Our enemies are a legion and STILL you procrastinate
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:15:04
May 11 2015 21:10 GMT
#222
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 05:11 Swoopae wrote:
On May 12 2015 04:42 Ovid wrote:
On May 12 2015 02:57 Swoopae wrote:
Will update when they answer whether that closing line was Bomber (I assume thats the case) or the Sbenu line as well; i've asked for clarification. For anyone unfamiliar with sportsbetting, that betting line means a wager of $1250 would yield a $100 return


Even if Bomber was playing one handed I would still put my money on him over B4. Sorry B4.


Bomber is objectively about a 3-1 favourite

This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4.


In a best of 7, then Bomber is absolutely a 6-1 favourite or something. In a best of 3, he might be a 4-1 favourite. There is no way he is a 12-1 favourite in a best of 1 here ever.

This was a best of 1, and on a Zerg favoured map as well.

I checked his record on aligulac and the last time Bomber won 10 maps in a row (necessary at these odds) in tracked games was in November 2012. That includes matches against foreigners.
TheWinks
Profile Joined July 2011
United States572 Posts
May 11 2015 21:16 GMT
#223
On May 12 2015 06:05 maGicc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote:
On May 12 2015 05:11 Swoopae wrote:
On May 12 2015 04:42 Ovid wrote:
On May 12 2015 02:57 Swoopae wrote:
Will update when they answer whether that closing line was Bomber (I assume thats the case) or the Sbenu line as well; i've asked for clarification. For anyone unfamiliar with sportsbetting, that betting line means a wager of $1250 would yield a $100 return


Even if Bomber was playing one handed I would still put my money on him over B4. Sorry B4.


Bomber is objectively about a 3-1 favourite

This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4.


Thats a blank statement backed by absolutely nothing.

If you think that putting Bomber as 3-1 fav in a bo1 over B4 is "massively underrestimating" Bomber - i assume that means that you put Bomber at least 90% fav over B4 in a bo1? Based on what, exactly?

Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot.

In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber.
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:22:41
May 11 2015 21:21 GMT
#224
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:05 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote:
On May 12 2015 05:11 Swoopae wrote:
On May 12 2015 04:42 Ovid wrote:
On May 12 2015 02:57 Swoopae wrote:
Will update when they answer whether that closing line was Bomber (I assume thats the case) or the Sbenu line as well; i've asked for clarification. For anyone unfamiliar with sportsbetting, that betting line means a wager of $1250 would yield a $100 return


Even if Bomber was playing one handed I would still put my money on him over B4. Sorry B4.


Bomber is objectively about a 3-1 favourite

This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4.


Thats a blank statement backed by absolutely nothing.

If you think that putting Bomber as 3-1 fav in a bo1 over B4 is "massively underrestimating" Bomber - i assume that means that you put Bomber at least 90% fav over B4 in a bo1? Based on what, exactly?

Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot.

In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber.

If they played 100 bo1 in a row, you might be right. However, the 100 bo1's should have to played on an alternative universes so they aren't connected to each other. To illustrate, let's say 2base baneling bust for example (or some other cheese) has 25% odds of winning the match in a single match, but if you try it 100 times in a row, it won't work 25 times since Bomber knows it's coming.
DJHelium
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden13480 Posts
May 11 2015 21:21 GMT
#225
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:05 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote:
On May 12 2015 05:11 Swoopae wrote:
On May 12 2015 04:42 Ovid wrote:
On May 12 2015 02:57 Swoopae wrote:
Will update when they answer whether that closing line was Bomber (I assume thats the case) or the Sbenu line as well; i've asked for clarification. For anyone unfamiliar with sportsbetting, that betting line means a wager of $1250 would yield a $100 return


Even if Bomber was playing one handed I would still put my money on him over B4. Sorry B4.


Bomber is objectively about a 3-1 favourite

This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4.


Thats a blank statement backed by absolutely nothing.

If you think that putting Bomber as 3-1 fav in a bo1 over B4 is "massively underrestimating" Bomber - i assume that means that you put Bomber at least 90% fav over B4 in a bo1? Based on what, exactly?

Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot.

In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber.


How much better do you rate PenguiN compared to B4?
#1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:26:07
May 11 2015 21:24 GMT
#226
On May 12 2015 06:05 Samx wrote:
This was the damage to the sport that I was fearing after Kespa/blizzard/MVP did nothing to mkp after the match. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the players. Go forth n fix. See mkp? Blatant as hell, what do we do? Pretend that nothing is happening. Release statements saying all is fine
This would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore.


Well what do you really expect would happen? Even at this point, even after like 8 voids or so, if you go outside of this thread, about 80% of the community still thinks that this is just a witchhunt with zero evidence and that we should "leave the players alone"

We have reddit's /starcraft/ downvoting anything related to matchfixing and upvoting any nonsense like "zero proof, innocent before guilty, player 'x' was going to win anyway"

We have people like Wolf, saying "Forget about it, move on" on the ProLeague stream and posting that "There is still literally no proof that match-fixing has occurred in Korean SC2"

A lot of community figures will just keep quite because the matchfixing scandal or any damage to the sc2 scene could potentially hurt them financially. Thats why you see clueless people like TotalBiscuit coming here and pretending they know what they are talking about and trying to convience everyone that we have no real evidence of anything.

When the majority of the community and Kespa shows zero interest in finding out the truth and would rather pretend that "nothing is going on" - we will have this charade going on for as long as possible.

We already had the most blatant matchfixing you can imagine (MKP's game) - no effect. People confirming that matchfixing is rampant in korea - no effect. Matches being voided almost every week - no effect.

If dota2/Csgo would have anything NEAR close to the pile of evidence we have - the shit would be blown out of proportion in a matter of hours/days. Here we have matchfixing going on for MONTHS - and still practically no one cares.

At this point you just have to ask the important question - how come the Sc2 community is that retarded?
DJHelium
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden13480 Posts
May 11 2015 21:30 GMT
#227
On May 12 2015 06:24 maGicc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:05 Samx wrote:
This was the damage to the sport that I was fearing after Kespa/blizzard/MVP did nothing to mkp after the match. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the players. Go forth n fix. See mkp? Blatant as hell, what do we do? Pretend that nothing is happening. Release statements saying all is fine
This would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore.


Well what do you really expect would happen? Even at this point, even after like 8 voids or so, if you go outside of this thread, about 80% of the community still thinks that this is just a witchhunt with zero evidence and that we should "leave the players alone"

We have reddit's /starcraft/ downvoting anything related to matchfixing and upvoting any nonsense like "zero proof, innocent before guilty, player 'x' was going to win anyway"

We have people like Wolf, saying "Forget about it, move on" on the ProLeague stream and posting that "There is still literally no proof that match-fixing has occurred in Korean SC2"

A lot of community figures will just keep quite because the matchfixing scandal or any damage to the sc2 scene could potentially hurt them financially. Thats why you see clueless people like TotalBiscuit coming here and pretending they know what they are talking about and trying to convience everyone that we have no real evidence of anything.

When the majority of the community and Kespa shows zero interest in finding out the truth and would rather pretend that "nothing is going on" - we will have this charade going on for as long as possible.

We already had the most blatant matchfixing you can imagine (MKP's game) - no effect. People confirming that matchfixing is rampant in korea - no effect. Matches being voided almost every week - no effect.

If dota2/Csgo would have anything NEAR close to the pile of evidence we have - the shit would be blown out of proportion in a matter of hours/days. Here we have matchfixing going on for MONTHS - and still practically no one cares.

At this point you just have to ask the important question - how come the Sc2 community is that retarded?


Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.

As for Blizzard, TOs, community figures, teams and players it's obvious - it hurts them if the scandal were to become public. I believe that not doing anything about it would hurt them more in the long run (just look at BW), but maybe I'm wrong.
#1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
May 11 2015 21:35 GMT
#228
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:05 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote:
On May 12 2015 05:11 Swoopae wrote:
On May 12 2015 04:42 Ovid wrote:
On May 12 2015 02:57 Swoopae wrote:
Will update when they answer whether that closing line was Bomber (I assume thats the case) or the Sbenu line as well; i've asked for clarification. For anyone unfamiliar with sportsbetting, that betting line means a wager of $1250 would yield a $100 return


Even if Bomber was playing one handed I would still put my money on him over B4. Sorry B4.


Bomber is objectively about a 3-1 favourite

This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4.


Thats a blank statement backed by absolutely nothing.

If you think that putting Bomber as 3-1 fav in a bo1 over B4 is "massively underrestimating" Bomber - i assume that means that you put Bomber at least 90% fav over B4 in a bo1? Based on what, exactly?

Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot.

In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber.


Unfortunately for you we have sites like aligulac where we can compare players and see their recent match history to draw a realistic objective opinion, instead of some delusional bias.

All your assumptions are either false (Bomber being on the top of his game and TvZ being his best matchup) or irrelevant (B4 not doing anything noteworthy and not being on a pro Korean team).

After all, not being on the korean team and not doing anything noteworthy for a long long time did not stop Morrow from winning bo3 against Hydra.

But of course, "it was different!"
Popkiller
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
3415 Posts
May 11 2015 21:40 GMT
#229
On May 12 2015 04:31 Swoopae wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 03:12 Popkiller wrote:
in a situation like this, are the same people betting on multiple betting sites?

Some get voided, maybe some don't, and they still make money?


They would be yes.

Nitrogensports voided todays too it seems like some other sportsbooks are taking the lead from Pinnacle on this

A lot of action would happen on illegal korean sportsbooks too


And on the sites where the bets are not voided... who are they winning the money from? Other bettors and the sportsbook itself? I'm assuming even an illegal site in Korea wouldn't want this happening?
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
May 11 2015 21:40 GMT
#230
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.
DJHelium
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden13480 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:51:49
May 11 2015 21:51 GMT
#231
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.


Maybe they all play protoss?

Do you know of any examples like this in other esports?
#1 player in the world atm: J-god | Follow me on twitter! @DJHelium
sushiman
Profile Joined September 2003
Sweden2691 Posts
May 11 2015 21:53 GMT
#232
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.

It's not surreal. No matter how much people like you scream "BETTING LINES!!1", that doesn't change the fact that this would be: a) a police investigation, which would not be public, and b) very likely to be lacking in evidence unless someone is caught red-handed or confess to it.
The betting sites are also illegal in Korea, would you expect the teams to blindly go by them as evidence of their players being guilty of a crime?

Some people seem to forget that this would be treated as a serious crime and be completely under internal investigation, you're not going to get anything unless they get some actual evidence, like what happened during the BW scandal when everyone was essentially rounded up in one go.
1000 at least.
Clonester
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany2808 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:57:02
May 11 2015 21:55 GMT
#233
IbuyPower in CS:GO
When the fixed match happend in August 2014, the community got split:
Half said "they fixed obvious, dont say other shit"
Half said "you fucking retards, they did not throw, they had just bad day, jetlag, stop saying such toxic stuff"

Februar 2015 RL made the article with hard evidence that the match 6 month earlier was fixed. 50% of the community did say nothing. Other 50% said "knew it, idiots".
Valve reactet to the hard evidence, but did not care at all, did not do any own actions after the game in August.
10 days later and a little bit of investigation of CS:GO-Lounge and Valve, over 10 and more people got part time or life time bans.
Bomber, Attacker, DD, SOMEBODY, NiKo, Nex, Spidii
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 21:57:04
May 11 2015 21:56 GMT
#234
On May 12 2015 06:51 DJHelium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.


Maybe they all play protoss?

Do you know of any examples like this in other esports?


http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/30402-team-redemption-permanently-banned-from-valve-tournaments
Swoopae
Profile Joined January 2015
Australia339 Posts
May 11 2015 21:56 GMT
#235
Popkiller; yes the money is won from legitimate bettors who bet on the other side and in some cases the sportsbook if the action is entirely one sided and the bets dont get voided

Magicc; I agree and it's really unfortunate. We've had a lot of top foreign progamers speak up about matchfixing (Huk, Kane, Welmu off the top of my head) and yet nothing is being done. The overwhelming problem is that there isn't enough money in the scene and the non-elite players aren't being paid properly. When you're making 10k a year and hovering at the poverty line it's a lot easier for some players to be tempted to say 'f it i'll throw a couple unimportant map 1s and make some real money'

Until there are consequences for match fixing the number of matches that are being fixed will only grow. It's a cancer that will spread and while it's not terminal right now if action is taken and the 5-10 players in question are punished the scene can move on from this and players will see 'there are consequences for match fixing if i'm caught maybe i won't do this'. After all, if you stopped punishing people for stealing... what's the logical conclusion? More people will steal. The threat of punishment is a major part of the whole reason the criminal justice system works for the most part.

If it gets to the stage where literally every second match is voided due to fixing it's too late. It's not there yet, but it's headed in that direction if nothing is done and no real investigation is launched.
chipmonklord17
Profile Joined February 2011
United States11944 Posts
May 11 2015 21:56 GMT
#236
On May 12 2015 06:51 DJHelium wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.


Maybe they all play protoss?

Do you know of any examples like this in other esports?


Didn't Arrow gaming get caught as well? (In DOTA 2)
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-05-11 22:10:39
May 11 2015 22:06 GMT
#237
On May 12 2015 06:53 sushiman wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.

It's not surreal. No matter how much people like you scream "BETTING LINES!!1", that doesn't change the fact that this would be: a) a police investigation, which would not be public, and b) very likely to be lacking in evidence unless someone is caught red-handed or confess to it.
The betting sites are also illegal in Korea, would you expect the teams to blindly go by them as evidence of their players being guilty of a crime?

Some people seem to forget that this would be treated as a serious crime and be completely under internal investigation, you're not going to get anything unless they get some actual evidence, like what happened during the BW scandal when everyone was essentially rounded up in one go.


Dont mix up criminal charges with community/tournaments aknowledging the fact that "yep, they are 99% matchfixing" - do not invite them to the tournaments, do not support them, let them know you are aware that they are throwing matches, do not watch the rigged korean leagues.

MarineKing coming to dreamhack and crowd cheering for him - yes, thats surreal.

After all that shit yet another match getting voided today and someone posting on reddit "Can we please stop making these threads, its all just speculation" - and getting massive upvotes - yes, thats freaking surreal to me.

showstealer1829
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Australia3123 Posts
May 11 2015 22:17 GMT
#238
The Yoda-Myungsik match being voided somewhere doesn't shock me just watching Pinnacle's line. That had a lot of action on it. Although not entirely suspicious action. But Yoda's odds were swinging violently in the half hour before that match started, like literally one minute he'd be 2.00, the next he'd be 6.00-7.00. Not suspicious, but there was money around that game
There is no understanding. There is only Choya. Choya is the way. Choya is Love. Choya is Life. Has is the Light in the Protoss Dark and Nightmare is his chosen Acolyte
Popkiller
Profile Blog Joined March 2012
3415 Posts
May 11 2015 22:22 GMT
#239
On May 12 2015 07:06 maGicc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 12 2015 06:53 sushiman wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote:
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote:
Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it.
.


Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days.

Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal.

It's not surreal. No matter how much people like you scream "BETTING LINES!!1", that doesn't change the fact that this would be: a) a police investigation, which would not be public, and b) very likely to be lacking in evidence unless someone is caught red-handed or confess to it.
The betting sites are also illegal in Korea, would you expect the teams to blindly go by them as evidence of their players being guilty of a crime?

Some people seem to forget that this would be treated as a serious crime and be completely under internal investigation, you're not going to get anything unless they get some actual evidence, like what happened during the BW scandal when everyone was essentially rounded up in one go.


Dont mix up criminal charges with community/tournaments aknowledging the fact that "yep, they are 99% matchfixing" - do not invite them to the tournaments, do not support them, let them know you are aware that they are throwing matches, do not watch the rigged korean leagues.

MarineKing coming to dreamhack and crowd cheering for him - yes, thats surreal.

After all that shit yet another match getting voided today and someone posting on reddit "Can we please stop making these threads, its all just speculation" - and getting massive upvotes - yes, thats freaking surreal to me.



as long as there is room for doubt, and there will be until a player gets banned or kicked off a team or does jail time, people will keep watching and cheering if they think its fun
maGicc
Profile Joined March 2015
Finland134 Posts
May 11 2015 22:27 GMT
#240
On May 12 2015 07:17 showstealer1829 wrote:
The Yoda-Myungsik match being voided somewhere doesn't shock me just watching Pinnacle's line. That had a lot of action on it. Although not entirely suspicious action. But Yoda's odds were swinging violently in the half hour before that match started, like literally one minute he'd be 2.00, the next he'd be 6.00-7.00. Not suspicious, but there was money around that game


Did he really went to 6.00-7.00? Even 3.00 would be already very suspect, with 4.00 being near conclusive. 6.00-7.00 is nothing but 200% fixed.
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