EPTThis would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore.
KeSPA's official statement on match fixing - Page 12
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Samx
Singapore149 Posts
This would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore. | ||
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Swoopae
Australia339 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:01 TheWinks wrote: This is massively underestimating Bomber's skill level over B4. In a best of 7, then Bomber is absolutely a 6-1 favourite or something. In a best of 3, he might be a 4-1 favourite. There is no way he is a 12-1 favourite in a best of 1 here ever. This was a best of 1, and on a Zerg favoured map as well. I checked his record on aligulac and the last time Bomber won 10 maps in a row (necessary at these odds) in tracked games was in November 2012. That includes matches against foreigners. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:05 maGicc wrote: Thats a blank statement backed by absolutely nothing. If you think that putting Bomber as 3-1 fav in a bo1 over B4 is "massively underrestimating" Bomber - i assume that means that you put Bomber at least 90% fav over B4 in a bo1? Based on what, exactly? Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot. In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber. | ||
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Jarree
Finland1004 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote: Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot. In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber. If they played 100 bo1 in a row, you might be right. However, the 100 bo1's should have to played on an alternative universes so they aren't connected to each other. To illustrate, let's say 2base baneling bust for example (or some other cheese) has 25% odds of winning the match in a single match, but if you try it 100 times in a row, it won't work 25 times since Bomber knows it's coming. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote: Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot. In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber. How much better do you rate PenguiN compared to B4? | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:05 Samx wrote: This was the damage to the sport that I was fearing after Kespa/blizzard/MVP did nothing to mkp after the match. It sends out a clear message to the rest of the players. Go forth n fix. See mkp? Blatant as hell, what do we do? Pretend that nothing is happening. Release statements saying all is fine This would kill the sc2 scene. More and more fans will become deluded and not watch/support the scene anymore. Well what do you really expect would happen? Even at this point, even after like 8 voids or so, if you go outside of this thread, about 80% of the community still thinks that this is just a witchhunt with zero evidence and that we should "leave the players alone" We have reddit's /starcraft/ downvoting anything related to matchfixing and upvoting any nonsense like "zero proof, innocent before guilty, player 'x' was going to win anyway" We have people like Wolf, saying "Forget about it, move on" on the ProLeague stream and posting that "There is still literally no proof that match-fixing has occurred in Korean SC2" A lot of community figures will just keep quite because the matchfixing scandal or any damage to the sc2 scene could potentially hurt them financially. Thats why you see clueless people like TotalBiscuit coming here and pretending they know what they are talking about and trying to convience everyone that we have no real evidence of anything. When the majority of the community and Kespa shows zero interest in finding out the truth and would rather pretend that "nothing is going on" - we will have this charade going on for as long as possible. We already had the most blatant matchfixing you can imagine (MKP's game) - no effect. People confirming that matchfixing is rampant in korea - no effect. Matches being voided almost every week - no effect. If dota2/Csgo would have anything NEAR close to the pile of evidence we have - the shit would be blown out of proportion in a matter of hours/days. Here we have matchfixing going on for MONTHS - and still practically no one cares. At this point you just have to ask the important question - how come the Sc2 community is that retarded? | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:24 maGicc wrote: Well what do you really expect would happen? Even at this point, even after like 8 voids or so, if you go outside of this thread, about 80% of the community still thinks that this is just a witchhunt with zero evidence and that we should "leave the players alone" We have reddit's /starcraft/ downvoting anything related to matchfixing and upvoting any nonsense like "zero proof, innocent before guilty, player 'x' was going to win anyway" We have people like Wolf, saying "Forget about it, move on" on the ProLeague stream and posting that "There is still literally no proof that match-fixing has occurred in Korean SC2" A lot of community figures will just keep quite because the matchfixing scandal or any damage to the sc2 scene could potentially hurt them financially. Thats why you see clueless people like TotalBiscuit coming here and pretending they know what they are talking about and trying to convience everyone that we have no real evidence of anything. When the majority of the community and Kespa shows zero interest in finding out the truth and would rather pretend that "nothing is going on" - we will have this charade going on for as long as possible. We already had the most blatant matchfixing you can imagine (MKP's game) - no effect. People confirming that matchfixing is rampant in korea - no effect. Matches being voided almost every week - no effect. If dota2/Csgo would have anything NEAR close to the pile of evidence we have - the shit would be blown out of proportion in a matter of hours/days. Here we have matchfixing going on for MONTHS - and still practically no one cares. At this point you just have to ask the important question - how come the Sc2 community is that retarded? Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it. As for Blizzard, TOs, community figures, teams and players it's obvious - it hurts them if the scandal were to become public. I believe that not doing anything about it would hurt them more in the long run (just look at BW), but maybe I'm wrong. | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:16 TheWinks wrote: Bomber is near the top of his game right now, TvZ is his jam, B4 hasn't seen anything noteworthy for 2 years, wasn't on a pro Korean team before rejoining prime, and has the worst proleague record and his games were awful to boot. In 100 BO1s, there's no way he's taking 25 games off of Bomber. Unfortunately for you we have sites like aligulac where we can compare players and see their recent match history to draw a realistic objective opinion, instead of some delusional bias. All your assumptions are either false (Bomber being on the top of his game and TvZ being his best matchup) or irrelevant (B4 not doing anything noteworthy and not being on a pro Korean team). After all, not being on the korean team and not doing anything noteworthy for a long long time did not stop Morrow from winning bo3 against Hydra. But of course, "it was different!" | ||
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On May 12 2015 04:31 Swoopae wrote: They would be yes. Nitrogensports voided todays too it seems like some other sportsbooks are taking the lead from Pinnacle on this A lot of action would happen on illegal korean sportsbooks too And on the sites where the bets are not voided... who are they winning the money from? Other bettors and the sportsbook itself? I'm assuming even an illegal site in Korea wouldn't want this happening? | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:30 DJHelium wrote: Maybe it has to do with the scene being in korea - it's hard for us fans to get in contact with the players and learn their thoughts. Imagine if Marineking was streaming regularly, he would have to talk to his fans about it. Until this recent news with Soulkey in Kespa Cup, we don't even know if koreans fans were talking about it. . Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days. Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote: Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days. Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal. Maybe they all play protoss?  Do you know of any examples like this in other esports? | ||
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sushiman
Sweden2691 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:40 maGicc wrote: Still does not explain the thickness of the sc2 community. I assure you, even after 1 dota2 void the whole team would get banned from every tournament in a matter of days. Here we have near 10 voids and players still showing up and play like its nothing. Its absolutely surreal. It's not surreal. No matter how much people like you scream "BETTING LINES!!1", that doesn't change the fact that this would be: a) a police investigation, which would not be public, and b) very likely to be lacking in evidence unless someone is caught red-handed or confess to it. The betting sites are also illegal in Korea, would you expect the teams to blindly go by them as evidence of their players being guilty of a crime? Some people seem to forget that this would be treated as a serious crime and be completely under internal investigation, you're not going to get anything unless they get some actual evidence, like what happened during the BW scandal when everyone was essentially rounded up in one go. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
When the fixed match happend in August 2014, the community got split: Half said "they fixed obvious, dont say other shit" Half said "you fucking retards, they did not throw, they had just bad day, jetlag, stop saying such toxic stuff" Februar 2015 RL made the article with hard evidence that the match 6 month earlier was fixed. 50% of the community did say nothing. Other 50% said "knew it, idiots". Valve reactet to the hard evidence, but did not care at all, did not do any own actions after the game in August. 10 days later and a little bit of investigation of CS:GO-Lounge and Valve, over 10 and more people got part time or life time bans. | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:51 DJHelium wrote: Maybe they all play protoss? Do you know of any examples like this in other esports? http://www.gosugamers.net/dota2/news/30402-team-redemption-permanently-banned-from-valve-tournaments | ||
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Swoopae
Australia339 Posts
Magicc; I agree and it's really unfortunate. We've had a lot of top foreign progamers speak up about matchfixing (Huk, Kane, Welmu off the top of my head) and yet nothing is being done. The overwhelming problem is that there isn't enough money in the scene and the non-elite players aren't being paid properly. When you're making 10k a year and hovering at the poverty line it's a lot easier for some players to be tempted to say 'f it i'll throw a couple unimportant map 1s and make some real money' Until there are consequences for match fixing the number of matches that are being fixed will only grow. It's a cancer that will spread and while it's not terminal right now if action is taken and the 5-10 players in question are punished the scene can move on from this and players will see 'there are consequences for match fixing if i'm caught maybe i won't do this'. After all, if you stopped punishing people for stealing... what's the logical conclusion? More people will steal. The threat of punishment is a major part of the whole reason the criminal justice system works for the most part. If it gets to the stage where literally every second match is voided due to fixing it's too late. It's not there yet, but it's headed in that direction if nothing is done and no real investigation is launched. | ||
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chipmonklord17
United States11944 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:51 DJHelium wrote: Maybe they all play protoss? Do you know of any examples like this in other esports? Didn't Arrow gaming get caught as well? (In DOTA 2) | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 06:53 sushiman wrote: It's not surreal. No matter how much people like you scream "BETTING LINES!!1", that doesn't change the fact that this would be: a) a police investigation, which would not be public, and b) very likely to be lacking in evidence unless someone is caught red-handed or confess to it. The betting sites are also illegal in Korea, would you expect the teams to blindly go by them as evidence of their players being guilty of a crime? Some people seem to forget that this would be treated as a serious crime and be completely under internal investigation, you're not going to get anything unless they get some actual evidence, like what happened during the BW scandal when everyone was essentially rounded up in one go. Dont mix up criminal charges with community/tournaments aknowledging the fact that "yep, they are 99% matchfixing" - do not invite them to the tournaments, do not support them, let them know you are aware that they are throwing matches, do not watch the rigged korean leagues. MarineKing coming to dreamhack and crowd cheering for him - yes, thats surreal. After all that shit yet another match getting voided today and someone posting on reddit "Can we please stop making these threads, its all just speculation" - and getting massive upvotes - yes, thats freaking surreal to me. | ||
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showstealer1829
Australia3123 Posts
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Popkiller
3415 Posts
On May 12 2015 07:06 maGicc wrote: Dont mix up criminal charges with community/tournaments aknowledging the fact that "yep, they are 99% matchfixing" - do not invite them to the tournaments, do not support them, let them know you are aware that they are throwing matches, do not watch the rigged korean leagues. MarineKing coming to dreamhack and crowd cheering for him - yes, thats surreal. After all that shit yet another match getting voided today and someone posting on reddit "Can we please stop making these threads, its all just speculation" - and getting massive upvotes - yes, thats freaking surreal to me. as long as there is room for doubt, and there will be until a player gets banned or kicked off a team or does jail time, people will keep watching and cheering if they think its fun | ||
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maGicc
Finland134 Posts
On May 12 2015 07:17 showstealer1829 wrote: The Yoda-Myungsik match being voided somewhere doesn't shock me just watching Pinnacle's line. That had a lot of action on it. Although not entirely suspicious action. But Yoda's odds were swinging violently in the half hour before that match started, like literally one minute he'd be 2.00, the next he'd be 6.00-7.00. Not suspicious, but there was money around that game Did he really went to 6.00-7.00? Even 3.00 would be already very suspect, with 4.00 being near conclusive. 6.00-7.00 is nothing but 200% fixed. | ||
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