EPTPeople are being way too cavalier about this. If the rot sets in too deep then Korean SC2 is finished. It may already be too late. Everyone turning a blind eye based on the smallest sliver of possibility that he may be innocent, it isn't rational.
MVP's Statement on MarineKing - Page 4
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Exarl25
1887 Posts
People are being way too cavalier about this. If the rot sets in too deep then Korean SC2 is finished. It may already be too late. Everyone turning a blind eye based on the smallest sliver of possibility that he may be innocent, it isn't rational. | ||
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Quixotic_tv
Germany130 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:08 ZenithM wrote: Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players. I think this sums it up. Even if he saw it on the minimap, he could've thought it was an overlord. There are some high level football games that in my opinion clearly were fixed, like those euro league finals some years ago where Bayern lost to Zenit out of nowhere and a russian mafia boss' phone was wiretapped where that guy said he gave Bayern more than 50 million euro for losing. I think that's why Hoeness went to jail so eagerly, covering the bribe money from that suspicious bank account, of which he told he "speculated on the stock market", haha. But I can't prove it, so I can't run around and tell people Bayern is corrupt. I have to believe the official story, and tell mine to people while I'm drunk. To cut it short, the presumption of innocence is still applying to MKP as long as you don't bring any proof. Edit: typo | ||
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Wuster
1974 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:08 ZenithM wrote: I'm not sure what is the point of asking a progamer about every single mistake and bad decision he likely made for no reason. Especially if you've watched MarineKing a bit, even his wins are sometimes not rational. Show me some replays where you yourself lost, I'm sure you won't have answers for why you made half your bad moves. Progamers are no different. Sometimes it's just "I felt like this could work, well, it didn't  ". Only in the tiny world of the TL Strategy Staff team are people perfect players.While that's true, there were several very suspicious moments and they gloss the entire thing over with basically: "MKP denied it, we asked again and he kept denying it." I didn't really expect much from this statement, but when they delay giving it out for literally weeks, I expected something more than "we trust MKP, but we only pried because we knew others wouldn't be satisfied with MKP's word". | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught. While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes. Is there no moderation penalty for people who go around making matchfix jokes and accusations? Nothing good comes out of it and does more to damage the community experience than other variants of shitposting. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:20 Weavel wrote: Maybe people will finally stop the disgusting ''matchfixking'' jokes. A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
Hope that MK gets his shit together and just becomes a boring (in out of games terms), legitely good, charismatic player again and can repay MVP for their trust with wins. | ||
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Deathstar
9150 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:25 StarGalaxy wrote: A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on. Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:23 Deathstar wrote: Is there no moderation penalty for people who go around making matchfix jokes and accusations? Nothing good comes out of it and does more to damage the community experience than other variants of shitposting. There probably should be moderation, but when most of the moderating staff, like most of the community, is convinced that MK is indeed a matchfixer, it's easy for the mods to pass on these comments, understandably. On April 21 2015 08:25 StarGalaxy wrote: A joke? I wonder how you would feel if you lost thousands of dollards to matchfixers. You say, Let's just sweep it under the rug? Ignoring the problem will not solve it. If we don't adress the matchfixing it will get worse and worse. I would rather see anyone invovled in this scandal leave the scene and move on. As much as I believe there was indeed matchfixing going on, I can't believe some posters here are pitying the betters haha. "Oh my god, poor better, he bet thousands of dollars on young nerds playing video games, and lost it all, poor thing :'(". | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19152 Posts
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:16 TotalBiscuit wrote: The difference being I do know about the burden of proof which some people on this forum seem to have not been taught. But TL forums is no justice system - we don't have the means to investigate the matter nor the power to ban MK from tournaments. I see a suspicious situation and feel concerned about legitimacy of competition in SC2. The statement from MVP is basically "guys, we asked MKP, he told us nothing was wrong". It would be dissatisfying if one could expect anything else from the statement from MK's team. They won't say anything else because they also don't have the means to investigate the issue. They could stop fielding MK in case they believed he could fix matches in the future, but it doesn't seem the case. They still, however, moved him from captain position for whatever reasons. Edit: corrected a typo | ||
Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote: While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time. agreed w/ plexa and not so much with tb. yes the burden of proof is on us but if the statement had specifically said 'we watched the replay and at no point did his camera see the spine crawlers' this statement would have assuaged at least some of the doubt - i know it would have helped for me. and while that still wouldnt have been proof of guilt, it would have helped a ton for public perception...which surely counts for something since they released a statement in the first place. | ||
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HaRuHi
1220 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:01 TotalBiscuit wrote: So I'd like to ask the thread exactly what they expected out of TL. The burden of proof is on the accuser. It is not up to MVP to do the impossible, that being to prove a negative. It is up to everyone else to prove Marineking was involved in matchfixing. Thus far all they have to go on is Pinnacle suspending betting on that match, which is not an awful lot to go on. Suspicious betting activity does not in fact mean that there was any wrongdoing. I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative. They can't, yet they tried. This is a strange PR move. So yeah, it is compelling to tell them in a more obnoxious way what you formulated a lot more british, they can't and have no means to do anything to restore Marineking's reputation. Actually, people go on the combination of suspicious betting action, which indicates someone knew how this game would end before it was played, aswell as a Korean Pro not seeing something on his minimap for minutes while nothing else is happening. What would convince me? Well, I don't know how much pinnacle profites, allowing people to rig there system, appearantly they don't want that to happen. I don't know how legal that betting in korea is in the first place, if it is though, together with the police, they could start investigating the people that rigged the betting line in the first place. Only then we will know who will go down with them and where the money went. | ||
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felisconcolori
United States6168 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:22 Plexa wrote: While I agree there is little MVP can do in this situation, there's very strong circumstantial evidence that something fishy was up. 1) We know bet manipulation is going on in Korea (thanks to your own tournament coming out against the suspicious sponsors) 2) The suspicious line movement on pinnacle 3) The bizarre events that unfolded during the game The body that needs to say something on the matter is KeSPA but of course they won't even if there were matchfixing occurring. Exposing it arguably kills off the scene by scaring off sponsors and possibly has deeper ramifications across all esports. But hey, maybe it will take the Korean police to get involved like they did last time. This part of the debacle I have some issue with - the actions of third parties that may have had no actual influence on the game being presented as evidence. The line movement was suspicious, I would agree. But was it because "Hey, the fix is IN!" (in which case, generally, the people seeking to profit from the fix would not bet in a manner guaranteed, by experience, to KNOW Pinnacle is aware of and fully capable of voiding all of their bets, making fixing the match a complete waste of time and money) or was it because "Hey, MKP looks like someone hit him in the parking lot with a 2x4, hurry up and bet against him" phone calls or was it because of irrational betting patterns by people that are betting, not logically and using statistics, but people that are betting on their favorite player without any regard and high hopes? + Show Spoiler + The gambling industry lives on high hopes. High hopes build the hotels and casinos in a desert. Professional gamblers are not the ones that are supporting the gambling industry, legal or illegal. | ||
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Penev
28440 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:14 Circumstance wrote: Quick reminder that TB has personally had to do EXACTLY what MVP did here - question one of his own players due to allegations of intentionally losing games and release a statement explaining it. I'll take his word on the matter as trustworthy. ? That doesn't mean anything, we're talking different people here. Anyway, TB doesn't say MK did or didn't match fix, just that there is no definite proof and MVP can't be expected to do/ say much more than they did. I personally think that the line movements in particular, are pretty incriminating evidence. I suspect that people disagreeing with this opinion did not properly investigate what these line movements actually mean in reality. | ||
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coverpunch
United States2093 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:22 Quixotic_tv wrote: I think this sums it up. Even if he saw it on the minimap, he could've thought it was an overlord. There are some high level football games that in my opinion clearly were fixed, like those euro league finals some years ago where Bayern lost to Zenit out of nowhere and a russian mafia boss' phone was wiretapped where that guy said he gave Bayern more than 50 million euro for losing. I think that's why Hoeness went to jail so eagerly, covering the bribe money from that suspicious bank account, of which he told he "speculated on the stock market", haha. But I can't prove it, so I can't run around and tell people Bayern is corrupt. I have to believe the official story, and tell mine to people while I'm drunk. To cut it short, the presumtion of innocence is still applying to MKP as long as you don't bring any proof. I would just point out that the presumption of innocence only applies with regards to the government in criminal cases, where someone's freedom is at stake. This is more the presumption of honesty, like how most governments allow people to self-report their income and expenses to determine their taxes or like science where we simply take researchers at their word that they collected the data honestly. MarineKing says he didn't do it. How much more can anyone expect out of him? The answer to all the apparent offers around here for armchair coaching is "no, thanks". I think this dents his credibility, but this only becomes a problem worthy of the kind of scrutiny others are asking for if he's involved in more suspicious games. He played another game and it was apparently clean, so whatevs. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9341 Posts
I'm honestly a little surprised at some peoples willingness to just say "yup, he obviously did it and this statement doesnt convince me otherwise". Tell me, exactly what would convince you? How exactly could they convince you? They can't, they have no means to, you can't prove conclusively a negative. MVP finding MarineKing innocents without very strong arguments = Useless (which was what MVP did) MVP finding Marineking guilty = Proof. MVP finding Marineking innocent with strong arguments = Useful, but not conclusive due to MVP not being a neutral 3rd party evaluator. at no point did his camera see the spine crawlers' this statement would have assuaged at least some of the doubt - i know it would have helped for me. and while that still wouldnt have been proof of guilt I assume you mean the creep spread here? Because the Spine was on his minimap as showed by the observor and he also looked at the minimap (as can be seen by his eye movement). | ||
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orllyfools
United States153 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On April 21 2015 08:27 Deathstar wrote: Yeah you guys are doing a great job fixing the problem. Yes I did. I did everything that was in my power. I provided sreenshots of manipulated odds here on TL. I provided analysis on them since there are probably not a lot of people out there that know as much about that matter as I do. (E.G http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/476033-pinnacle-voids-dark-vs-san-bets-due-to-match-manipulation-concerns?page=52#1034 ) Thank you for ridiculing the people that contribute to raise awareness. | ||
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