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On March 24 2015 05:20 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 05:07 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager. i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most. I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell. When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks. The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks. I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol. Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv. I think you are overestimating the power of abduct. Firstly roach hydra without vipers is total shit after protoss gets few colossi and game is over when there are HT and storm. Against mech blinding cloud is not insta win! Thanks to ravens and vikings attacking terran mech is super hard and if you attack without SH you often just get rekt. When you say how stupid viper is i see how dumb protoss death ball is or the power of mech. I don´t mind taking away the viper if you give something back to fight the absurd power of protoss and terran mech.
I never said that vipers are too strong, i just don't like the unit from a design-perspective.
I know that mech and protoss deathballs are super hard to defeat and you need vipers to even have a chance to do that but
I just don't like the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on the usage of one spell, especially if that spell doesn't have a lot of micro potential.
Of course zerg needs another unit once vipers are getting changed, that's why lotv is the perfect opportunity to do that.
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The Viper is one of the best bandaids in SC2. It's a unit that - unlike other bandaids like the MsC - doesn't just shut down something on its own. It requires units and certain compositions to work and only works really well against certain units and compositions. Without ever becoming useless in the purpose you built it - hello reaper, oracle...
It's still a bandaid, mainly existing because Colossi with the protection of stalkers and storms are a broken unit if you dont have (air) artillery to fight them, but blizzard didnt want to force zerg into BLs every game. (Rather the opposite. When they made the Viper in late 2011 it was already clear that the broodlord was zergs only endgame option in WoL against Protoss but it caused bad gameplay)
I guess these days it is also necessary against mech because instead of nerfing the (against mech) broken combination of Swarm Hosts with Vipers, they buffed mech until the former broken composition remained the only playable one.
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From the language they use it's pretty obvious that they think/know this patch will break the game.
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On March 24 2015 04:45 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Corruptor hard counters something?
The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol. They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS. In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting.
They have their uses, but corruptors are really awful. Being able to take on mutalisks, a fast harrass unit and tempest, a slow long range unit, is hardly a ringing endorsement, when everything that is able to shoot air beats them on a straight up engagement anyways. And pheonix handles corruptors fairly well once they get their +2 range upgrade. Anyhow I am replying to bronzeknee, not Tyrhanius, who seem to think corruptors hard counter something, to the extent he has bolded it. I am genuinely curious to see what exactly does he think the corruptor hard counters.
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On March 24 2015 04:45 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Corruptor hard counters something?
The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol. They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS. In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting.
Building Curroptors against Mutas is like one of those "Who would win, a shark with knifes attached to his finns, or a tiger in a full body plate" things, it just doesn't happen and those two are so bad in killing each other...
But yeah, the concept of hard-counters is pretty weak and does not make for interesting games.
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About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea.
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On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea.
Imagine an upgrade at hive ( at the hive) for overlords to morph into increased supply overlords. Something like 200 minerals 100 gas upgrade.
Overlord: Mutated Sacs ( name up for debate obviously) 100 minerals, 200 gas grants 10 supply ( this supply extends above 200 and the new maximum cap that becomes reachable is 300) No health increase or stat changes just physical reiteration different colour/addon looking overlord: see supply depot extension.
This would allow for zerg to get more queens and even promotes zerg drop. You hide the expensive overlords.
You go into broodlord queen static d + infestor + viper or you don't get this army and continue zergy style.
Either way the investment is huge enough and the effect of it not buffing the overlord would make it zerg doesn't get to just exploit this new mechanic. Yet it can over time invest into this new style or over invest if zerg is massively ahead. ( for example big battle happens and both races trade hugely and need to remax) It would promote other races to try and hunt down these overlords because the reward incentive would be very good.
This does not fix zerg's anti air but it does take advantage of the zerg style blizzard and people already enjoy which is multitask macro/agression. Currently no zerg is really promoted to do zerg drops. As the supply cost of roaches or even the swarmhost (old or new for that matter) is essentially a wasted supply. You only ever see roaches being used to help vs zealot warp ins. With the warp in mechanic it's much easier for protoss to remax than compared to zerg. With the removal/change of the current SH i can garantuee zergs won't be able to defend everywhere.... Whilest still maintaning a good anti air army or a counter potential. I think all games will devolve into base trades without this change.
Another less cool change would be to speed up the base broodloord speed and acceleration a very small bit.
But honestly if you ask me i think that would really suck and not be anywhere near as interesting. The fact that Tempest is getting a + massive damage nerf... i don't see any reason to buff broodlords yet.
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On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea.
Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking.
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On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking.
It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game.
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On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game.
I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm....
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On March 24 2015 18:00 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game. I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm....
I wan´t to be able to fight against late game death balls without having taken the whole map while my opponent sits on 3-4 and rolls my armies again and again. You do understand that if your army dies and the opponent loses almost nothing you are dead if your opponent attacks? If you don´t max on kings it still takes a while.
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Zerg can already overmax. Yeah there's an issue, especially in ZvT, where Zerg's army supply is lower than their opponent's and this can cause issues. I'm not sure there's a call for something that can do that, though.
Being able to instantly remax, occasionally more than once is still a thing (I'd like to see more hatcheries made ultra late game. I usually see Zerg not being able to remax due to larvae before not being able to remax due to bank).
Edit: Maybe a hive upgrade that ups the base larvae growth limit to 5 from 3 and has them come out faster.
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On March 24 2015 18:00 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 24 2015 15:06 RaFox17 wrote:On March 24 2015 11:40 fried_rice wrote:On March 24 2015 09:49 Ninigi wrote:
About the Zergs weakness in lategame after the SH de-facto removal: Someone, somewhere brought up the idea of giving Zerg a researchable ability to raise supply-max. I found that idea quite interesting, because it would give Zerg an even more "swarmy" feeling, would make up for the relatively weak forces while avoiding another game-stalling free unit spawner.
I guess you would have to make some adjustments, otherwise it would be op, but basically I really like the idea. Yeah man, incredible idea, I'm sure blizzard is going to implement that, cuz u know, it's not like Zerg can remax instantly after losing their army, or switch tech after banking. It´s great to be able to remax instantly into another army that gets wiped out in the late game. I see. So u want a comparably army strength AND want to remax instantly? Hmm....
If zerg had an army unit comparable to the High Templar, Tempest or Raven in supplyefficieny zerg's also wouldnt be able zo remax because they'd spend all their money making those units.
Terran and Protoss could also remax very fast (and they do sometimes: parade pushing, mass warpgate endgame). They just cant remax on a composition that was more expensive than the zerg ones to begin with.
That is the crux. Protoss and Terran have the ability to slowly replace their core units with more supplyefficient ones. At 15mins Mech can be maxed. At min 20 Mech has replaced 10hellbats with Ravens. At min 30 Mech still has no incentive to walk out because they can replace 200gas/6supply units with 3 200gas/2supply units.
But what are you going to replace your roaches and ultras with? Banelings only work well vs light, cant clean up and are easily countered. Infestors and broodlords have been nerfed into the ground to prevent these strategies, overseeing that the other races now have a free pass to do just that.
It's swarm hosts and vipers trying to get freekills and slowing down the process of reaching 50ravens+50viking armies for zerg. Eventually trying to bleed out the opponents bank and income with he slowest form of costefficieny possible.
If the new SH works nothing changes in that regard. Zergs trying to trade for free in lengthy games. P/Mech trying to reach singleplayerlike perfection.
If it doesnt work, Zerg is done.
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EPT
