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On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote:
If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba.
Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better)
It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby.
Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it.
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On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote:
If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it.
i think i know what your mistake is...
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On March 20 2015 03:15 Topin wrote:
PDD nerf is just too big
u haven't even seen what the nerf is...
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he doesn't use Queens that outheal Seeker Missiles on Broodlords and Ultras, since one SM doesn't kill both types ? I had a Terran SM my Ultra once while it was open ground on creep. His whole air blob died, after he gave me a super fast running Bomb and realized it to late.
Still I really hate the PDD and Swarmhost change. PDD one makes no sense, while free units shouldn't be able to fight on their own.
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On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote:
If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is...
I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords.
Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work.
The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore.
You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss.
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On March 21 2015 02:13 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote:
If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is... I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords. Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work. The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore. You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss.
If they are going mech and you have so few vipers that 5 vikings can deal with them then the problem is at your end. Blinding cloud range is huge, it is impossible for Vikings to kill everything before doing that. Drop the cloud and kill the mech.
And I think that his point was that you can totally disregard the opinion of someone who thinks that you can HSM and kill 30 Swarm Hosts and especially 50 Mutas - don't they fly? Fly them out of target range - ffs I even see Immortals escaping HSMs and they are not fast.
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It´s amazing how some terrans still tell you that mech is not strong against zerg. I guess it´s the same kind of thing like "terran gets nerfed in every patch" belief that is not reliant on real life.
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It's just terrible change. How can you say, first i remove +massive vs broodlord to allow Zerg to have a late game vs protoss (that means dk admits sh change make zerg in a bad shape on late game and need compensation). But oh wait i have a lot of protoss cry about pvp so i get back +massive. That means pvp design more important than z ability to face fight vs protoss ?
It says : players who play zerg i don't care if your underpower, i just care about viewers and protoss gold feedback.
Aslo, it aslo show the incompentence of dk, as there is some simple solution to affect only one match : you give + air shield or +air mecanical to tempest but no better double nerf zerg.
I aslo don't get the idea of sh change now. The problem exist until the beta, a long game with sh was present on beta, dk choose to do nothing. Now the lotv beta is close to be online, there is some arcade where you can test the flying locust if you find them cool (notice sh were cheaper on beta than on patch note), but you have to release the patchnote now ? Why should i undergo now a massive nerf of my race now ? It's not beta of hots, i've paid for a finished product, if dk want to test things, there is LOTV beta for it.
And i can choose to buy or not LOTV, it's like they force zerg to buy lotv if they want to be competitive on sc2.
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They should push bonus damage vs structures on the Tempest, as intended long ago, and give the colossus the structure attribute. Maybe if it's funky, it would work.
And also some posible use for banelings in ZvP as a present!
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On March 21 2015 03:11 RaFox17 wrote:
It´s amazing how some terrans still tell you that mech is not strong against zerg. I guess it´s the same kind of thing like "terran gets nerfed in every patch" belief that is not reliant on real life.
Terran whining it's a part of this game. Sometimes they even cry because MMM cant kill Gatewaycolossus armies while they are dropping at two locations at the same time, "saying Deathball OP" and "noskillrace". Basically they cry at anything that doesn't melt against MMM, even when Stimbio is probably the most effective composition against anything that doesn't have a decent AoE,
As a Protoss I wish that mixed gateways could work without the need of deathballing at LotV with the introduction of the Adept. The Forcefield+Blink+Shadow teleport is going to be a micro fest, so let's pray for the whining to stop.
Asides from the typical racial jokes, the problem with Terran is that Bio and Mech don't really synergize well, so using mixed styles is not really viable. The Siege Medivac thing and the Cyclone in LotV are thought to solve this problem a bit.
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Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible.
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On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible.
I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall).
I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
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On March 21 2015 02:13 kiLen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 00:49 Charoisaur wrote:On March 21 2015 00:33 duckk wrote:On March 21 2015 00:16 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2015 23:31 duckk wrote:
If it stays the way it is now zerg will be in a lot of trouble especially with korean terrans starting to learn how to properly abuse mech in zvt. Almost every top 100 terran has gone mech against me, even if they are previously strong with bio and every single game has been a walkover. I am even losing to terrans i cant match in ladder who go mech.
The pdd nerf would only be significant in zvt if swarmhosts were as they are now, however after the changes that wont be an issue. Zerg will not physically be able to beat mech. Swarmhosts are the only good unit zerg has to fight mech and even with it the ravens once massed just autowin. Honestly what army comp could possibly trade with mech.
zvp is not too bad, but the hydra needs a buff in some way, perhaps start with range and their old +10 back. The phoenix upgrade should only give 1 range to encourage more skilled phoenix users and not have them be such an overwhelming hardcounter over muta and corrupters.
Also not looking at the widow mine or hellbat is very disappointing. Both are way too cost effective which would be fine if there was a micro element to either of them. Maybe the fact you lose to mech and think hellbats are cost effective is why you arent gm on korea... typical unskilled biased zerg. seriously, i don't think zerg will be in nearly as much trouble as you think. At the moment mech barely works vs someone who scouts and knows how to play vs it and the viper buff and raven nerf is absolutely huge. Broodlord corruptor or ultra viper will probably deal really well with mech, imo it will be even to strong vs mech, but we will see how it plays out. Only because you have problems vs mech on ladder doesn't mean it's imba. Broodlords cant work because raven's hardcounter them with hsm (viper should be able to abduct broodlords again would fix this). corrupters still get negated by pdd's which isnt an issue either side. Ultras are weak vs pf placement and hsm also kills them. ( they should not be able to get seekered and they would be better) It is not just me who is having problems vs mech. The few zergs who seem to do well vs mech rely on swarmhosts and hour long games at a minimum. It is not even that mech is too strong, it is that it is invincible with pdd. It is easy to instantly kill 30 swarmhosts with HSM, or 50 mutas with HSM. Skill can overcome imbalance, but when ravens make your entire army invulnerable it is very difficult to get "better" vs. Is my gameplan really suppose to be hope i can chain fungal 200 supply at once? Relying on abduct is also bad as you have to be in range of vikings to do it, so best case scenario it is 1 viper for 1 abduct which is not a guaranteed kill. Overseer circle spamming can be useful but can be risky with thors nearby. Remove the swarmhost and raven from the game and it would be a better matchup IMO. would be worth testing at the very least. If any1 has tested a zvmech build please pm me it. i think i know what your mistake is... I see that cherry picking is your speciality! Anyway, zerg WILL have a very hard time versus mech without the current swarm hosts. You see what makes the raven so strong is not the HSM, its the PDD, and yes, even if it is nerfed it still lasts 20 seconds which will be long enough vs corruptors and broodlords. Zerg will not have a reliable way to break tanks or even stall them anymore, Broodlords are counterd by 3 things, Ravens, Thors and the fact that mech gets their upgrades combined, fighting 2-2 vikings with AT BEST 2-0 corruptors are not going to work. The only real way zerg will be able to win is in the early game and mid game unless the swarm host harass turns out to be so strong that terrans wont be able to take a 4th base safely anymore. You said in a previous post that vipers where a problem for mech and I can safely tell you that if you had made more than 5 vikings the vipers becomes almost uselss.
1.- How will PDD affects broodlords?
2.- Zerg anti air is shit yes but no zerg would be stupid enough to stay in the sameplace for the duration of the 20 seconds, a zerg army is much more mobile than a mech one, if a zerg simply stays in range of a PDD for the 20 seconds its not the fault of the PDD.
3.- I have no idea why you think HSM is so strong, they barely do any damage if they don't do a lot of damage to terrans units when they bait the HSM and fly the units into their army, theres a reason HSM is barely used in pro play and instead they prefer PDD/HSM
4.- 5 vikings killing all vipers... ok I think theres no point to argue anymore
I think that these changes need to be tested, the only reason the SH was needed was because skyterran (aka the raven) was too strong, but now the mech army has no transition, once on hellbat/tank/thor/viking (and maybe medivacs/banshees) there is nothing to transition to (since BC suck really bad) so there wouldn't be a timer on the zerg.
With the new viper change I think we just need to wait and see, the raven is pretty much useless now so I don't see why there would still be a problem with, we just need to wait and see how the other units in both arsenal would interact.
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On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels that way. I'd even say it worse than Vortex vs Broods, because at least you could split to counter Vortex (though Vortex was still overpowered). Against Abduct, you just watch you expensive units fly into a mass of cheap Zerg crap.
And there is no skill, no positioning to get an angle or concave, no outmaneuvering, no fancy micro that separates pros from noobs. Whether or not the Zerg lands the Abduct often decides the fight, nothing more. Either the Feedback beats the Abduct or it doesn't. There is no inbetween. It's terrible.
Zerg shouldn't be dependent on it, but because they are it is easier to land Abduct with lots of Vipers than it is to feedback them. It is horrendous game design.
In fact, the Corrupters, an incredibly one dimensional hard counter (hard counters are also terrible game design) unit, provide more opportunities for skill on both the Zerg and Protoss side than the Viper does.
At the very least, they could make Abduct like Blitzcrank's or Pudge's hook. Make it at least require some aiming.
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Lol, what's your league ? Whining about vipers. The unit cost a lot of gaz, 3 supply, and have no dps. What about chargelot, archons, void charge, collossus, wm, hellbat.
And corruptor hard counter ? lol. What about mass void that kill mutas/corruptor/hydralisk.
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Corruptor hard counters something?
The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol.
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On March 23 2015 00:06 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Corruptor hard counters something?
The only thing corruptors hard counter are units that don't shoot back lol.
They are quite strong against mutas,phoenixes and tempests, for example. But they don't "hardcounter" any air unit that plainly because they have short range and low DPS.
In fact, I'd love to see more units with that "low DPS" - "softcounter" concept. Game would be fairly more interesting.
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On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager.
i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most.
I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell.
When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks.
The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks.
I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol.
Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv.
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On March 24 2015 05:07 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2015 13:49 playa wrote:On March 21 2015 13:11 BronzeKnee wrote:
Am I the only one who hates the Viper?
I think Abduct is the dumbest ability in the game, worse than FF. It is so easy to pull off. It just counters every tech unit, forcing players to build tier 1 crap (which is why we see so many Protoss focus so heavily on tier 1 PvZ). And Vipers double counter Siege Tanks with Abduct and Blinding Cloud...
I am not saying that Zerg should lose the Viper and gain nothing, I just think the whole design of the unit from a game design perspective is terrible. I absolutely hate vipers. It's so tilting to watch a guy a-moving and then clicking on 1 colossus to abduct, to instantly win the game. HT vs Vipers is so stupid. I don't know whether I'm flipping coins, playing poker or what is going on. I don't know what to make of it. All I know is it feels a lot like vortex vs infestor, broodlord, but a lot more Zerg favored. Give me WoL any day over anything P vs Z related in HotS (minus photon overcharge and recall). I can't believe they're finally giving Zerg a unit that requires a person's presence at their keyboard. I'm not sure the shock will ever wear off, until they decide to remove force field instead of going ahead with the ravager. i completely agree, the viper is probably after swarmhosts and tempests the unit i hate the most. I wouldn't say it's too strong or to easy to pull of but i just hate the fact that the outcome of an engagement depends entirely on one spell. When Gateway collossus armies fight vs roach hydra viper the only thing that determines who wins the engagement is who clicked at first. Did he hit feedback on the viper before his collossi got abducted? There is no thought behind this spell, you just click on the collossus and pray that the protoss is to slow with his feedbacks. The same goes for tvz. did he cast blinding cloud before the vikings killed the viper? if yes you win the game instantly, if no your army just melts vs his tanks. I don't think a single spell should have that much influence on engagements, it also reminds me of archon toilet in wol. Hopefully the viper gets removed/redesigned in lotv.
I think you are overestimating the power of abduct. Firstly roach hydra without vipers is total shit after protoss gets few colossi and game is over when there are HT and storm. Against mech blinding cloud is not insta win! Thanks to ravens and vikings attacking terran mech is super hard and if you attack without SH you often just get rekt. When you say how stupid viper is i see how dumb protoss death ball is or the power of mech. I don´t mind taking away the viper if you give something back to fight the absurd power of protoss and terran mech.
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Really? I think the Viper is in such a good spot and is surprised they actually have any changes in store for this unit, coming LotV.
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EPT
