|
Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes.
|
TL's reasoning behind malicious intent not being the case makes no sense. If you are viewbotting someone to get them in trouble, why would you then make it completely obviously by boosting it during the accusations? Their reasoning is backwards on that portion. Certainly Winter benefiting is a possibility. But if I am viewboting someone to get them in trouble, I could do the same, and no one can tell if it is me or Winter, boosting it only makes people think there is definitely viewboting and therefore makes Winter seem innocent, so I don't do that. Or i stop viewboting and makes it also seem like someone was viewboting and again making Winter seem innocent. So the only logical course a malicious viewbotter would take, would be to continue as they have been, not boosting or dropping viewers. I am not saying Winter did or did not, just saying TL's reasoning on that seems flawed. But they are not very good at policing their community in my opinion or doing much to streamers for obviously wrong doing, so it does not matter.
|
also his friend basetrade tv also viewbots. i'm sure i saw him viewbotting in begin
|
On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-snip-
Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me.
By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool.
Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy.
|
We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter.
This is not consistent with TL past practises. CombatEX was placed on TL's permanent shitlist and was unable to get featured by TL despite years of trying, and sincere apologies, to the point where he was driven off the scene. Why should Winter be treated more leniently than CombatEX?
|
Also, I forgot to mention in my other post but it's awesome the new requirements for the feature. It'd be good to see some people like pili or otherwise start getting up there. They've been streaming top 10-40 GM gameplay for quite some time and have slowly been building up a viewerbase. It'd be cool to see them get some more support in the community.
|
On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:59 Krugessin wrote:
Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:00 J6X16 wrote:
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof." Unfortunately, there really is no easy solution to this problem. It's undeniable at this point that Winter's stream was subject to viewbotting. That may or may not be his fault, but it is also undeniable that he benefited from it. The only available fact we have is that the stream's numbers are inflated and the stream was subjected to viewbotting. TL has no choice but to act on a stream that has been subject to viewbotting, regardless of intention. Now, we understand that this sets a dangerous precedent. It's possible that in the future, some malicious person or overzealous fan viewbots for another streamer, and we are forced to de-feature that stream. Unfortunately we can only act based on the information available to us. It would be great if Twitch independently and effectively investigated viewbotting (including source of viewbots), but that is something beyond our control. As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, through Facebook (person's existence is somewhat verifiable) or have his fans post with confirmed email and IP address. Someone more creative could think of a better solution. But like I said, this isn't an easy problem to fix, and we as a community need to do more to make sure that viewbotting does not become widespread.
Honestly I think if someone wants to hurt a streamer, there are far cheaper and more effective ways of doing it.
For starters, stream-sniping is an extremely effective way to fuck with streamers. It's 100% free, and it allows you to get an unfair advantage against them, which allows you to beat them, and then as an added bonus you get to BM them in front of their own audience.
For those sociopaths that want to do more, DDossing is far far cheaper, and there's zero chance that your DDos will backfire and end up helping the streamer.
Viewbotting is expensive, and it has a high chance of helping the streamer instead of hurting them. I just can't see sociopaths doing it when cheap, effective alternatives like stream-sniping and DDossing exist.
|
On March 16 2015 17:38 dreadlordx wrote:
TL's reasoning behind malicious intent not being the case makes no sense. If you are viewbotting someone to get them in trouble, why would you then make it completely obviously by boosting it during the accusations?
...To make it more harmful to the person you're trying to be malicious toward? At the time of most attention is when you put on the biggest show. That's tactic 101.
I really don't understand the objection toward this decision. Winter benefited greatly from the viewbots (Nvidia sponsorship). Would you rather Team Liquid support someone that excelled to success using illegitimate means? Because that's the alternative.
Compare it to someone using Maphacks to win a prestigious online tournament. You can not cheat your way to success. No prestigious organization is going to support that kind of conduct.
|
On March 16 2015 17:40 Legio wrote:Show nested quote +We will be reviewing this decision in six months time, where if Winter is able to show us that his channel is no longer supported by viewbots and his viewership meets our minimum standard for featuring, we will re-feature Winter. This is not consistent with TL past practises. CombatEX was placed on TL's permanent shitlist and was unable to get featured by TL despite years of trying, and sincere apologies, to the point where he was driven off the scene. Why should Winter be treated more leniently than CombatEX?
To be fair, CombatEX epitomized toxicity.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP.
|
On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow,
So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers?
Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here.
Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
|
On March 16 2015 17:40 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:30 codonbyte wrote:-unsnip- Excellent job, teamliquid.
The term "toxic" is thrown around (too) often in this community, but if there is one type of person who is truly deserving of the label, it's a viewbotter. Viewers who are into watching streams are finite, and the hours that said viewers are willing to devote to watching streams are also finite.
One of the things I've learned as I transition from kid world into the dark and dreary Adult World is that all those sayings that adults used to throw at me are lies. "Cheaters never win" is probably the biggest lie out there. Of course cheaters win. They have an unfair advantage, why wouldn't they win? Sure, sometimes they get caught, but most of the time people who cheat get away with it. The same goes for cops who beat innocent people up. And people who shoplift.
I currently work in retail and they've told me that I'm not allowed to stop someone from stealing something even if it's right in front of me (yeah yeah liability blaah blaah). Heck, it's especially true for people who shoplift; I've seen people walk out with a backpack full of stuff and the manager doesn't apprehend them "because we didn't actually see her put it in the bag". Sometimes I wish I was a little kid again, when I actually believed that the good guys would always win.
It is a lie to say that cheaters never win, but at least we can say that this particular cheater didn't win. That this particular cheater was brought to justice. That this particular thief didn't just walk right past my register with a backpack full of viewers. That this particular cheater, who was stealing viewers AND sponsorship money from honest hard-working streamers, was brought to justice.
Thank you, teamliquid. Thank you for making the lie at least a tiny bit true on this night. It's nice to occasionally see someone actually have to pay for their crimes. Well, you sure do sound passionate. Today Winter was unfeatured on TL. Yet he still pulled in more than double the viewership of Avilo. Who by the way claimed that Winter turned off his viewbots because hes "scared". Still... seems like a winner to me. By the way. When someone is getting mugged on the street. The consensus is to hand over your valuables and let them walk away. The same applies to shop lifters in a retail store. It applies to people on cash registers too. Why? Because getting stabbed for material items does not make you a hero. It makes you a fool. Oh and holding police brutality on the same scale as viewbotting. Real classy.
Yeah of course he did, he's been at the top of the page for the past year thanks to his viewbots. That's the entire point of viewbots: fake viewers generate real viewers. That's the only motivation for viewbotting, since they don't generate ad revenue (thank god).
And yes, since you brought up avilo, I am mad that winter cheated his way to the top of the page while avilo has been working his ass off for the past three years to get to where he is today. I remember when I first started watching him and he only had about 50 viewers. He's come a long way since then.
Also, I never said that viewbotting was at the same level as police brutality; only that they are both things that people get away with far too often. Nice straw-man argument though :D
|
All those saying "even with the bots off and being unfeatured winter still has more viewers than everyone else" completely miss the point.
If you're high up in the rankings, more people will try out your stream for the first time. People who like the stream will see it again another day, and watch it again. After a while people get to like the streamer and follow him or her. Of course, much later, they have lots of legitimate viewers; the problem is they were disingenuous in getting those viewers.
If winter hadn't botted in the first place this wouldn't have happened. If 12 months ago Avilo (or anyone else) viewbotted, they would have been higher up in the ranks, and hence more likely for people to "try out" their stream, and become long term followers.
This isn't about whether you like Winter's stream or not, it's about the fact that Winter cheated to lure many people into watching. There are other streamers out there you would probably have enjoyed just as much, but you'll never know, because they are low down on the list so you never clicked on them. And of course, once you become popular and make money, it's easy for them to improve their stream with fancy hardware and graphics. Probably a lot of entertaining streamers have quit or gone to another game because they weren't popular enough (because people just looked at the list, saw Winter = 2000 viewers, oh this guy must be good, click - yes I suppose this is OK, let's keep watching).
You're entitled to like winter's stream, and continue watching it. But you were mislead into watching it in the first place, and that's wrong. There are plenty of people who work just as hard with their streams (Lowko, Neuroswarm etc) but don't get top of the list, or get featured, and hence don't get the chance to explode in popularity.
|
Wasn't Winter cleared by Twitch? Twitch investigates viewbotting before signing extended partnership.
As for HTOMario, he is often hosted. Usually by Gretorp.
|
On March 16 2015 17:50 lichter wrote:
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP.
"However, the streamer came forward himself regarding the matter on his twitter (without prompting by the community)"
How do you know this exactly? I saw the tweets. Someone in that position couldn't explain to his viewer base why he was denied, not without giving a reason. I'm not saying HTOMario is guilty of anything. I'm just amazed at how you can be so sure of his innocence and so sure of Winter's guilt when all you have on both is definitive proof that they've benefited from viewbots.
|
On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
Yes, the 600 subscribers would be enough. However, he's "disqualified" because he has benefited from viewbots...
Doesn't matter who paid for the veiwbots or why. The stream that benefited by cheating is being un-featured. End of story.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused.
I do not know what capabilities Twitch has. This is one of those unfortunate situations where the only party with the infortmation might not have the ability to investigate adequately.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:57 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:50 lichter wrote:
We have also made a statement regarding HTOMario, appended to the OP. "However, the streamer came forward himself regarding the matter on his twitter (without prompting by the community)" How do you know this exactly? I saw the tweets. Someone in that position couldn't explain to his viewer base why he was denied, not without giving a reason. I'm not saying HTOMario is guilty of anything. I'm just amazed at how you can be so sure of his innocence and so sure of Winter's guilt when all you have on both is definitive proof that they've benefited from viewbots.
The only reason we even know he was view botted was because he openly admitted it. He was not included in the reddit investigation so the only ascertainable evidence we have is his own admission.
|
Thank you for saying something outside of Twitch but within the community about this, whoever you ppl are. I don't rly post here but I've felt that Sc2 viewership being artificially padded by bots is not, in fact, helping bring more viewership. It more serves to confuse the fuck out of new players. tbqh if I didn't know the stream was botted, I'd be quite permanently creeped out over how quiet 3k starcraft players can be while watching some dude obnoxiously noobsplain everything to me. What if I had a question & no one answered? I'd be like, damn. Who do I gotta fuck to get some coaching around here
|
On March 16 2015 17:59 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:50 Krugessin wrote:On March 16 2015 17:18 lichter wrote:
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, So the 600 or so subscribers are not enough to verify that he has a decent chunk of legit viewers? Could maybe Twitch themselves somehow verify that most of them seem not to be Winter himself? Maybe I am missing something here. Maybe it isnt that many subscribers, maybe that's where I am confused. I do not know what capabilities Twitch has. This is one of those unfortunate situations where the only party with the infortmation might not have the ability to investigate adequately.
I think twitch is probably capable of dealing with it. After all, they did ban that EggY guy. Also, viewbots must already be detected at some level in the system since they don't generate ad-revenue. Obviously the software that's keeping track of ad impressions knows who the bots are. Hopefully they can extract that information somehow.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
