|
Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
|
On March 16 2015 16:24 lichter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. He definitely meets the requirements to be featured without viewbots. Unfortunately, until the viewbots are purged and he can prove that he had no hand in being viewbotted, he also breaks one of the rules and must be defeatured.
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof."
|
On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
Since a stance was taken by the liquid organization, can we as a community hope to receive a official statement about this matter once further large organizations take their stance and if a final verdict will be reached following conclusive evidence presented?
|
|
|
I used to watch Winter around 2 years ago (I think) and he was by far the most informative stream around. He used to play random in master league, and he told his race at the beginning of the game. He had very good insight and commentary all game long ("I am doing XXX because I saw YYY. I will transition to A or B depending on what I see in the next minute")
I was glad his viewership base grew, and it was fun to see his daily thread "Master random streamer!" on reddit get downvoted to oblivion ("That's that nobody again").
But the last dozen times I checked, he was doing random smurf things. I am only half surprised that he benefited from viewbotting. It's a good update to the policy, TL, and I hope that Winter will come back to his original endeavor.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 17:00 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here. Since a stance was taken by the liquid organization, can we as a community hope to receive a official statement about this matter once further large organizations take their stance and if a final verdict will be reached following conclusive evidence presented?
What? Stance on what? (Winter???) Official statement?? (if its about winter, the OP is an official statement) Final verdict? (???)
|
On March 16 2015 16:53 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately? TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
This should be proof enough:
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576170789692571648
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576170914846412800
twitter.com/Hfmario/status/576171280199618560
"One of the worst part is that we got featured on TL. I sent them a message telling them what I found out and accept any decision."
Before he was featured, he had roughly 60 concurrent viewers, but spiked to 600 for one week.
|
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true
|
On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true
Care to give some examples?
|
I see this as a tough one, Winter streams like 70 hours a week, he is very entertaining, has a pretty good support base, 600 or so subscribers, almost exclusively supports and promotes Starcraft ... and well Twitch is not banning him .. then I think he should be given at least some credit for what he does for Starcraft.
If nothing else, even if he did have viewbots then he would be well over the limits needed to be featured. I really hope that this lack of support does not dishearten him enough to stop streaming ...
|
Ha, well that figures. I've been less active on community streams since Destiny's heydey, and every time I saw some insanely bloated viewer count next to Winter's featured channel and tuned in for a moment, I was just baffled. The product being offered clearly never justified its audience. And now we know why.
Winter's presentation doesn't seem much better than someone like pewdiepie, or some of the attention whore clowns who stream LoL.
Anecdotal, sure, but it also sure lines up well in this instance.
|
Avilo is not personally my favorite person, but he is a smart streamer and he does have some pretty developed thoughts and experience in the area so you definitely have to give him some props for his time and video on it.
That said, I don't really understand what a person CAN do if someone else is maliciously botting their channel? Had Winter made a post asking why people are randomly botting his channel would the issues have been overlooked and he'd just go on making money and grabbing sponsors or what? I mean, it's sad this is happening to him in a way, due to just how much success he has had, but lets just assume he made a failed attempted to get viewbotting to stop and just hoped it would eventually, can he really be held accountable for it? I'm not so sure, and well, regardless of how it all happened to get to this point it doesn't really matter either way to me since I've never been a fan of winter's smurfing. As HuK has said, it's just a nasty taste when you see people doing that and somehow prospering in a community.
On a side note, I can actually think of a channel or two right now that get botted 24/7 whenenver they stream in the SC2 directory and they have been completely overlooked by Twitch even in light of previous offenses committed by said channels and the fact that it is so blatant... It's pretty interesting to think about how twitch can reasonably deal with this other than to simply just get better bot detection.. :/
|
Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:51 eieio wrote:
o.o did nightblue get featured? He wasn't last time I checked
I thought I saw nightblue on the featured list a while back. I remember his name being mentioned for being featured but maybe you're right.
|
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:59 Krugessin wrote:
Here's the part that make me itch:
If Winter previously didn't believe he was being viewbotted, how much effort is he supposed put into making a so called "genuine" appeal to his ANONYMOUS benefactor to stop the viewbotting?
Also I guess I feel vaguely insulted and sad when even TL seems to imply that I am an idiot for finding his stream (often) informative and entertaining. And always on, I'm following maybe two dozen streamers and subscribed to like half of them, but how often do I find White-Ra actually playing? Hrm hrm.
Bleh, Lichter, how can Winter ever "prove that he had no hand in being view botted"?
On March 16 2015 17:00 J6X16 wrote:
How would the you propose Winter provide "proof?" You want him to provide proof but yet fail to say what would be sufficient enough for proof for TL. Would you please enlighten me on exactly how he would do that, because it would seem like you specifically left that out in your post. What qualifies as "sufficient enough for proof."
Unfortunately, there really is no easy solution to this problem. It's undeniable at this point that Winter's stream was subject to viewbotting. That may or may not be his fault, but it is also undeniable that he benefited from it.
The only available fact we have is that the stream's numbers are inflated and the stream was subjected to viewbotting. TL has no choice but to act on a stream that has been subject to viewbotting, regardless of intention.
Now, we understand that this sets a dangerous precedent. It's possible that in the future, some malicious person or overzealous fan viewbots for another streamer, and we are forced to de-feature that stream. Unfortunately we can only act based on the information available to us. It would be great if Twitch independently and effectively investigated viewbotting (including source of viewbots), but that is something beyond our control.
As for what Winter could do, I can imagine a couple of possible options. He could have his fans verify their numbers somehow, through Facebook (person's existence is somewhat verifiable) or have his fans post with confirmed email and IP address. Someone more creative could think of a better solution. But like I said, this isn't an easy problem to fix, and we as a community need to do more to make sure that viewbotting does not become widespread.
|
On March 16 2015 17:14 Cove wrote:
Ha, well that figures. I've been less active on community streams since Destiny's heydey, and every time I saw some insanely bloated viewer count next to Winter's featured channel and tuned in for a moment, I was just baffled. The product being offered clearly never justified its audience. And now we know why.
Winter's presentation doesn't seem much better than someone like pewdiepie, or some of the attention whore clowns who stream LoL.
Anecdotal, sure, but it also sure lines up well in this instance.
You probably shouldn't use pewdiepie as your example. Since all it really does is prove that even with shitty presentation, you can be incredibly popular to the point of being a millionaire. Kind of guts the point you are trying to make, doesn't it?
|
On March 16 2015 17:11 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true Care to give some examples?
I don't have exact quotes no, but everytime I think his game knowledge/commentary is very subpar, especially when he's zerg(I dont know the other races that well so I don't know about them), he just says things about the games that are just not right.
|
On March 16 2015 16:00 looknohands119 wrote:
I'm very disappointed. You should know better.
Are you serious? Because I'm starting to wonder if you're some massive troll.
|
On March 16 2015 17:20 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 17:11 InDLegacy wrote:On March 16 2015 17:10 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:
Goodjob Teamliquid!
Funny how people call him so informative anyway, more then half the things he says are not even true Care to give some examples? I don't have exact quotes no, but everytime I think his game knowledge/commentary is very subpar, especially when he's zerg(I dont know the other races that well so I don't know about them), he just says things about the games that are just not right.
Then why does anyone say hes informative?
I mean. I guess I could help you out.
https://www.youtube.com/user/WinterStarcraft
This is obviously a link to his YT channel, where he has uploaded quick tips and tutorials. You're free to link what you find to be subpar information. Although honestly, I'd assume whatever you do link to be very subjective.
|
|
|
whoaaa that link to reddit was a good dose of drama. so much drama, so much intrigue. rip winter
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
