|
On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter
That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point.
|
On March 16 2015 16:27 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
-snip-. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
Grounds for De-Featuring:
On-stream conduct determined unacceptable to Team Liquid. This includes acts of racism, homophobia, hate speech, and general assholery
I think viewbotting counts into this point.
Or you know.
This one.
Proof of viewbotting or artificially padding one's viewing numbers *
So even if he meets requirements, there are also reasons to de-feature him.
|
On March 16 2015 16:29 SirRobin wrote:
Sweeet. Great post, I agree with it all. I can't wait to show you guys what I've got.
You've gotta be getting close to being featured, keep at it bud.
|
On March 16 2015 16:32 codonbyte wrote:I talked to a twitch staff member (thrice) in avilo's stream tonight, and he said he'd forwarded the reddit posts to the appropriate twitch higher-ups. As you said they've already banned eggy, so I'm pretty optimistic that hammers will be droppin'.
Oh look, It's an Avilo chat moderator. I'm surprised you believe Twitch wasn't already aware of the Reddit post. If Winter was going to be banned it would have happened by now.
|
On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility.
|
Thank you, it's about time. I don't even understand how repressed speaking the two words "viewbot" and "Winter" in the same sentence was until now. We'll have to live with officially hailing that guy as the greatest streamer ever, I guess.
|
I'm really impressed with this decision. Not only the fact that you've removed Winter, but that you're going to be attempting to help out those streamers that put in the time and effort. I'm proud of you TL.
|
Vancouver14381 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:22 BreAKerTV wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:17 KadaverBB wrote:On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer? Do you meet any of the requirements? Let's just wait until early April. Maybe I'll apply then. Do these terms also apply to liquidlegends.net?
No. LL featured streams are pretty much only current and former pro players. The only exceptions I can think of are like streamers who can regularly get >5k viewers like Trick2g and Nightblue.
|
On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point.
I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list.
Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
|
+1
Does this mean Weedamins gets in? 
|
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately?
|
On March 16 2015 16:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility.
The subject is on whether Winter supported the viewbots on his channel or not. Your analogy does not allow for that, therefore it does not work here.
|
On March 16 2015 16:43 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:36 Shuffleblade wrote:
I don't really care about all this but I think its good that rules are enforced.
Winter obviously broke the rules, its his responsibility that his stream broke the rules.
If you walk into a store and walk out of it with a steak in your pocket, it will not be the stores burden to prove who put that steak in your pocket. Its your own pocket, its your responsibility you will be sentenced for theft. Winters stream, winters responsibility. The subject is on whether Winter supported the viewbots on his channel or not. Your analogy does not allow for that, therefore it does not work here.
You are ignoring the plain text in the OP.
The subject is NOT whether winter supported the viewbots. The subject is whether winter BENEFITED from the proven viewbots.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful.
Avilo was mentinoed in the power only because he gives a fairly comprehensive rundown of the damages that viewbotting does to legitimate streaming. Otherwise he hasn't had any influence over the decision making process nor did he supply the evidence.
|
On March 16 2015 16:27 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
-snip-. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter Yeah so easy to checklist all the reasons to discredit someone's viewpoint. Rather than respond to the actual content of their reply. What a plebeian way of responding to someone.
On March 16 2015 16:36 InDLegacy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:32 codonbyte wrote:I talked to a twitch staff member (thrice) in avilo's stream tonight, and he said he'd forwarded the reddit posts to the appropriate twitch higher-ups. As you said they've already banned eggy, so I'm pretty optimistic that hammers will be droppin'. Oh look, It's an Avilo chat moderator. I'm surprised you believe Twitch wasn't already aware of the Reddit post. If Winter was going to be banned it would have happened by now.
Hahaha look at this clown, gets mad when people call him out for being a Winter fanboy and then turns around and accuses someone else of being an Avilo fanboy
User was warned for this post
|
Really nice to see the new streamer requirements! They look pretty solid :D
Also a nice response on the Winter situation, I think this is about as reasonable as you can get given the facts.
OT:
On March 16 2015 16:39 JBright wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:22 BreAKerTV wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 KadaverBB wrote:On March 16 2015 16:13 BreAKerTV wrote:
There are jerks who will do anything to make someone look like they are crazy. A lot of them just have money to throw away to troll someone.
In my case, someone shelled out enough money to buy me like 60,000 fake twitter followers. Within a week twitter support took care of like 8,000. Then over the next three months, twitter took care of the rest of them when I emailed their support team.
On topic of the OP now, does this mean that I have what it takes to be feautured as a teamliquid streamer? Do you meet any of the requirements? Let's just wait until early April. Maybe I'll apply then. Do these terms also apply to liquidlegends.net? No. LL featured streams are pretty much only current and former pro players. The only exceptions I can think of are like streamers who can regularly get >5k viewers like Trick2g and Nightblue.
o.o did nightblue get featured? He wasn't last time I checked
|
On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
Rather than using the word "using" considering the the form of evidence wouldn't the proper term be "having"? Simply to be objective, it's easy to forget the implications common words have on a sentence.
And I agree with Team-liquids decision to unfeature winter based on the factor of viewbots, but I see a lot of people being very accusatory on a personal level which -what I believe- something this community could not only do without but also brings the discussions about the topic itself to somewhat of a standstill of opinions rather than facts. Since a person will be suffering from this I wish that intil more definite proof atleast we as members of a community we shouldn't ostracize people.
This due to me believing in the concept of "innocent intil proven guilty".
|
On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum
No one has objected to the notion that Winter's channel had viewbots. It is also quite clear to me that the bias is in your court, since you claim I am somehow ignoring facts. If you properly read my statement, you would have known that my issue is with the excuses TL has given to unlist Winter.
"But it is impossible for us to measure the strength of that legitimate viewership in relation to our normal featuring standards while viewbotting continues on Winter's channel."
I'm not arguing against the decision. I'm arguing against the way it is being done. TL should simply be taking a stance of neutrality to the issue, instead of blatantly choosing a side they way they are. They say they will review this subject in 6 months, and should Winter provide enough to convince TL that he isn't being supported by viewbots they would consider relisting him. This is fine. The rest of the announcement sounded like Avilo himself typed it up.
|
On March 16 2015 16:51 Zachris wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 16:40 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:34 Zachris wrote:On March 16 2015 16:24 Taidanii wrote:On March 16 2015 16:17 InDLegacy wrote:
Oh please. Let me point out what this is really all about. This is about TL trying to avoid any of this drama. There are trolls all over Twitch and Reddit looking to create drama anywhere and everywhere Winter is advertised, and TL doesn't want any of it. If you honestly expect any rational person to accept that you can't gauge if Winter meets your 100-150 viewer requirement, viewbots or not, then you are trying too hard to come up with excuses. You can already look up stats on his subs, being way over that amount (Over 600).
Avilo has had an obsessive attitude towards Winter for a long time now. The kind that borders stalking. This is why any mention of his name warrants a time out in Winter's chat. I looked through that reddit post. I saw the proof. I agree that there has undoubtedly been viewbots on Winter's channel. Yet some of those "suspicious" accounts Avilo cites follow typical stupid naming schemes people have been using for decades now. Really? We're to suspect xxCloudUchihaxxk because his name is dumb and he is only following Winter?
There is only one party that can determine if Winter is at fault here. That is Twitch. All Twitch has done thus far is work with Winter to take measures to stop his channel from getting viewbot traffic. They have in the past banned streamers for viewboting. Yet here they haven't. I'm sorry but you can't just point out "Twitch is doing nothing about it" like they are simply choosing not to.
For anyone else, the burden of proof is on the accuser. The evidence Avilo presented is not good enough to determine if Winter backed those bots.
All being said. Winter HAS helped the Sc2 community. His viewership is the only way SC2 hits the top streamed games list when there are no professional games being streamed. For TL to take a stance like this so publicly, I can only find it disrespectful. The fact that you made an account on this site just to post in this thread indicates that you're biased to defending winter's ethics in this matter. The community has collectively decided that the support of an individual that excels using illegitimate means is unwarranted. We apologize if this causes any inconvenience for you, or your friend winter That is under the assumption that a argument can't be held under objective standards while being subjective to a side, which isn't true. 1+1=2 is still true even if you can feel it otherwise. Disregarding the fact that having a discussion about something involves -to a certain degree- taking sides according to various statements and with that always comes a subjective aspect. Let us not ignore the fact that we are human while remembering that it doesn't make us incapable of having a valid objective point. I completely agree with you, however in this particular instance only two aspects exist when making a decision on what to believe here: There is undeniable evidence implicating winter in using viewbots. Viewbots have been deemed as reason to be unfeatured from Team Liquids featured stream list. Any objection to this is ignoring facts and new policy changes. Or to be better put: A temper tantrum Rather than using the word "using" considering the the form of evidence wouldn't the proper term be "having"? Simply to be objective, it's easy to forget the implications common words have on a sentence. And I agree with Team-liquids decision to unfeature winter based on the factor of viewbots, but I see a lot of people being very accusatory on a personal level which -what I believe- something this community could not only do without but also brings the discussions about the topic itself to somewhat of a standstill of opinions rather than facts. Since a person will be suffering from this I wish that intil more definite proof atleast we as members of a community we shouldn't ostracize people. This due to me believing in the concept of "innocent intil proven guilty".
Thank you. I'm having trouble presenting this thought. You're doing it much better.
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 16 2015 16:42 oOOoOphidian wrote:
HTOMario was viewbotted for the week which earned him featured status, should he be removed as well until he can maintain the requirements that were posted legitimately?
TL isn't going to go around and investigate each streamer who gets an unusual bump in viewership. We have enough on our plates as is. However, if evidence would surface that a user viewbotted we would examine that and make a judgement on it in line with what we have done here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
