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Godwrath
Spain10155 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:20 bypLy wrote: thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:30 bypLy wrote: I basically want Apollo to say on any move a foreigner does: "Ok, look at this play, this is very good non-korean play. Look at this micro. Definatly, very well done for foreign standards. He doesnt have his third base up, which any decent korean would have had up running for three minutes but now he lands it, which is very good considering he is just a foreign player.." This is dumb and insulting. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:32 [PkF] Wire wrote: ??? This makes no sense to me. When are Korean players disrespected ? Did the casters say "Wow, Zest or Rain would definitely have been too stubborn to pull out this move, what strategical thinking by MaNa" or "That baneling focus fire by Bunny was amazing, fortunately we have WCS to see those clutch micro moves we don't see in GSL or SS2L" ? No. They're even quite genuine about the players mistakes, for instance they made it quite clear that Bunny really misread the situation vs MaNa in the Overgrowth game. I'm tired with people bashing foreigners without any consideration for the dedication they put into the game and their actual skill. If you weren't watching the games with that "those players do not compete in Korea therefore they must be God awful" flag you wouldn't say such bullshit. I watch both GSL/SS2L and WCS and you see abysmally dumb mistakes in Korea too. Koreans are better, yes. But WCS players are good too. i respectfully disagree. Of course i am not bashing foreigners. I see the dedication they put into it and enjoy the games and fan hype. I just think casual viewers shouldnt be fooled. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Whereas 4 times runner up and a 2014 GSL Champ are in Code B and one player called God has one of the worst SPL Stats ever. When you watch national finals in maybe 100m running, you will say the runners are good. But still they are nowhere near the international elite, but they are above 99,9% of the runners in that nation. That makes em good. There are reasons why there are the words good, better and best. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:35 bypLy wrote: i respectfully disagree. Of course i am not bashing foreigners. I see the dedication they put into it and enjoy the games and fan hype. I just think casual viewers shouldnt be fooled. Casual viewers already know Korea is the Mecca of SC2. They don't need to be reminded it. And once again, you wildly overestimate the difference between a KR player and a good foreigner. It's about very subtle things that add up, not "the foreigner can't take his third at a proper timing" or "the foreigner will always have 20 supply less than a decent KR would". | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3520 Posts
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players.... It's insulting and totally ludicrous. If you listen to some people on that thread, they barely know how to play. Really skilled people have not been able to go through the qualifiers. Those guys are legit and good. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:52 SC2Toastie wrote: Actually, thinking about this for a bit, it is downright insulting to state the best 32 players of all the world excluding eMecca are bad players.... WCS isn't the 32 best players outside of Korea btw. and the skill of some games have been quite low tbh (astrea literally dieing to 3marines a medivac and a hellion...) | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:55 [PkF] Wire wrote: It's insulting and totally ludicrous. If you listen to some people on that thread, they barely know how to play. Really skilled people have not been able to go through the qualifiers. Those guys are legit and good. looks like we have a foreign fanboy here. Dude we are foreign fanboys ourselves. But you have to see the huge gap in their play compared to koreans. There is really nothing to argue about  | ||
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Wintex
Norway16849 Posts
you don't have to watch all the starcraft in the world. No one watches every soccer league Or every chess tournament | ||
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royalroadweed
United States8301 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:32 Godwrath wrote: Who doesn't know that KR is SC2 masterrace ? That casual (whatever that word means) must be an hermit if he is watching esports and has never heard about KR as our goddamn Mecca. Doesn't mean they still aren't disrespected. I've seen enough complaints about "faceless koreans" and "random koreans" to know better. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:59 bypLy wrote: looks like we have a foreign fanboy here. Dude we are foreign fanboys ourselves. But you have to see the huge gap in their play compared to koreans. There is really nothing to argue about The skill gap is huge, but it's the skill gap between Federer and Gasquet, not between Federer and an amateur player who doesn't really master the basics. I remind you the title of the thread : WCS Premier Players Cannot Be Considered Good. I think this is absurd, ludicrous, insulting. | ||
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SFDuality
United States1318 Posts
And to say foreigners don't work as hard as Koreans is such utter bullshit. Perhaps their practice isn't as efficient or focused owing to the lack of a team house environment, but to say they don't work as hard is an insult to the likes of Snute and even to ladder beasts like Kas who practice their hearts out to be able to compete at the top level. Obviously there are individual differences between players. The same exists for Koreans. Don't just throw a blanket "but white guys are lazy!" statement around unless you truly believe guys like Genius are more hard working than everyone not in Korea. I get it. You want to watch the best, highest skilled starcraft, and the foreign scene isn't there yet. But it never will be there so long as condescending attitudes like the ones displayed in this thread are the norm. Maybe that doesn't matter to some, but it should. SC2 isn't Brood War. It can't survive in South Korea alone. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Beastyqt
Serbia516 Posts
Comparing foreigners to Koreans in Starcraft 2 (or any other game that Koreans invest time in) is like comparing high school basketball to NBA (I'll use Thorin's example). They just aren't same league and will never be any time soon and it's just silly to compare them in the first place. As far as Thorin's how good someone is Harstem is a top player and yes top for foreigners, because Harstem doesn't have same training as Zest does, he doesn't practice versus the players Zest does and he cannot be as good as Zest is, which is why you should not compare the two, they are different leagues. Him saying "casual players" don't know who is good and who is not and they don't know the difference between the players, what makes you think hardcore viewer knows anything about which player is good and which isn't? Hell, casters even have no freaking idea who are the top players in the foreign community. I'm pretty sure both casual and hardcore viewers thought Violet will go through WCS and that Kelazhur will get demolished by TLO, what happened? The only people who have good insight who's actually good skill wise are the pro players themselves, because pro players get to play against other players and observe their games against other pro players which then they can analyze or just feel in game the amount of pressure they are putting on you and the multitasking they have, how they defend your drops, how they are positioning their army based on your army. You cannot know that from watching a tournament game. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17705 Posts
On February 20 2015 10:06 Powerfoe wrote: At the end of 2014, Blizzard announced a change to their WCS system which would highly restrict the players eligible to participate in their non-Korean WCS events. Now, barring exceptional circumstances, you pretty much have to be white in order to compete in this event. Now when games are being played, we can see that a lot more fan favourites, such as TLO and MaNa, are able to advance further and more easily in these tournaments due to lesser competition. This is great and all, but there is an issue where casters and fans start calling these players "good" or "awesome" or "outstanding". However, this is not the case because we know that these players would most likely not have the same success if they had to compete against players wielding the Korean flag. In my opinion it is extremely unfair and borderline offensive to the top Korean players that these foreign hopes are considered to be "good players" when they are clearly not on the same level. WCS Premier is not the same calibre as GSL or NSSL, so those players should be held in a lesser regard. i just play very casually now. i know little about game play above diamond. and i listen to these commentator compliments. even guys like me who know very little about the intricacies of the game are expecting the non-koreans to get rolled at the next Blizzcon just based on history. in the first few Blizzcons Testie would get invited and then get rofl-stomped by every korean at the event. That is probably what we're headed for with this WCS set up. its no different than when i watch the Canadian Football League and the commentators are yelling and screaming about "the best running back in the country". any one with half a brain knows the guy would struggle to be a 2nd string running back in the NFL. let the commentators hype up the players all they want. | ||
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Quateras
Germany867 Posts
I actually enjoy WCS premier more than NSSL or GSL for that, i noticed a lot of insanely well played games tend to end really quick and are pretty straight forward and boring. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2015 23:47 Quateras wrote: Honestly, after 4+ years of watching SC2, i cant give a crap anymore about *good players* all i wanna watch now are entertaining or super scrappy games that are exciting and dont follow specific plans. I actually enjoy WCS premier more than NSSL or GSL for that, i noticed a lot of insanely well played games tend to end really quick and are pretty straight forward and boring. just select carefully your players. Some will play standard and "boring" most of the time (Happy, Snute in EU, Bogus, Taeja in kr eg) and some will have tons of exceptionnal games that fit your criteria (Zest, Maru, Life, Gumiho in kr, TLO/Catz) | ||
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