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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
There's a reason we see no Thorin in shows like Remax or TLG, everytime he does, he gets called out on his bullshit. IIRC, he even ragequit vs Destiny once. Everybody can make a video on youtube, yell a lot, lalala. Once it comes to an actual argument, there's nothing left of him. ggnore Thorin. Learn to discuss. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27228 Posts
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TheBloodyDwarf
Finland7524 Posts
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OtherWorld
France17333 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:00 Wombat_NI wrote: I actually agree with his video, or at least large parts of it. I just don't think it really pertains to the SC2 scene for the most part. No. He apparently doesn't know what relativity is. Obviously when someone says a play or player is "good" or "incredible", it's relative to the level of play he is supposed to display. When an average foreign player like PtitDrogo makes a good move during a Challenger match, it would obviously be a shit move compared to what a top Korean would do. But the casters or viewers aren't going to say "oh look, that move would have been shit in Code S. PartinG would have done much better than PtitDrogo here. This isn't good at all." ; they'll say that it's a good move because it's implied that it's a good move "relatively to what we could expect given the reputation of the player and the tourney he is playing in". | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27228 Posts
Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it. I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent. My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:22 Wombat_NI wrote: Definitely correct, I'm very much in the 'foreigners are actually good' camp. I do think casters could do a better job in analysis of players relative strength and weaknesses though. Most casts are basically, both these guys are good, one is weird as fuck (if it's say Has), and then sort of explain the builds and choices they're making it. I'd love it if there were more points of distinction made just in terms of relative strengths. It does happen sometimes but not always. For example, Happy is a fantastic player mechanically, but maybe not the best at planning builds for a series. His opponent TLO isn't as strong mechanically, but has a range of clever builds and is very tactically intelligent. My bone of contention is not so much about the lack of relativist context, but more there's not enough on WHY people are good, but also what they suck at in casts. As I said earlier it's probably due to many of the casters having relationships with players and being loathe to be too critical, which is understandable. Gotta watch the french cast :D we kinda try to present the players as they are (and none except bogus is perfect :p) with their strenght, weaknesses, playstyle etc  | ||
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Krugessin
Sweden54 Posts
Let's continue calling foreigners good and great and superb and whatever. There will always be some inherent uncertainty in even those assessments vs other foreigners, and we can hope they turn out to have a chance vs even the half decent korean ûbergods. Either way it's been fun to see recently how several early sc2 koreans still seem to be able to tango with the kespa freaks. Pfft for elephants, the competition was never a COMPLETE joke. Yay for relativity! | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:03 TheBloodyDwarf wrote: This reminds me of Elephant in the room thread :D Elephant in the room at least tried to be well written and to back up it's point. This is just a pile of crap. If you need Thorin as intellectual reference, you're gonna have bad times.... | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:34 Gwavajuice wrote: Elephant in the room at least tried to be well written and to back up it's point. This is just a pile of crap. If you need Thorin as intellectual reference, you're gonna have bad times.... I like your sig :p | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12486 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:24 sAsImre wrote: Gotta watch the french cast :D we kinda try to present the players as they are (and none except bogus is perfect :p) with their strenght, weaknesses, playstyle etc You also had Funka going on for 2 and a half hours about how Soulkey made 4 GSL finals and no one correcting him (no, I haven't forgotten :p) | ||
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NihilisticGod
Northern Ireland174 Posts
On February 20 2015 10:42 Meatex wrote: well i half way typed up a logical argument with reasons and then remembered this is the internet so there is absolutely no point to doing so. Concept behind this thread is wrong and if OP wants to watch top koreans battle it out there is GSL and pro league for exactly that and if they hate casters saying foreigners are good then don't watch. Why do you even want to watch players that you think are only okay at best? That makes no logical sense I thought exactly the same thing! | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:51 Nebuchad wrote: You also had Funka going on for 2 and a half hours about how Soulkey made 4 GSL finals and no one correcting him (no, I haven't forgotten :p) welp I wasn't there I can promise that :D | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3520 Posts
WCS Premier players can be considered good. The absence of Koreans, means we don't have to call good players shit no more. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
Those guys are maybe not exceptional by Korean standards, but they are amazingly good at this game and train hard to gain recognition. No one is trying to deny the competition is harder in Korea and nobody called TLO Life or Bunny INnoVatioN but the players in WCS deserve to be called great players. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
However yesterday in WCS i saw some nice decision making by the players. It was really good, but when I looked on the minimap and saw that the third isnt landed up at around 13 minutes while it has been ready for seven minutes i noticed that these players lack just the multitasking and refined play. I see they know builds and do good attacks and timings, they are smart, but after the 10 minute mark the game is already one minute delayed from what we expect from korean standards. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10155 Posts
2015 - We need unlocked regions so Korean players can demolish what's left of the foreign scene and show who is the boss. If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are. It's not like people think WCS EU winner is at the same lvl than WCS KR level, both are good players, but definitly one is much better than the another. But i thought that was a given. If you don't want to watch WCS EU/NA, don't watch it. Other people might find it interesting (and viewer numbers agree with this). And yes, they are good by my definition of what being good implies. Deal with it. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:17 Godwrath wrote: If you are watching WCS EU/NA, you know what your expectations on the players are. thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more. It was not like that the best koreans went over for the top8... | ||
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7799 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:20 bypLy wrote: thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected edit: though its better to see beloved foreigners than semi good (and faceless) koreans like pigbaby or byul who would also loose in their own country, but have by some reason the chance to come over for the top placements. Good lord, I am so happy that this is not possible any more Except, no. They aren't. Literally everyone, even people who know nothing about StarCraft know about the "Koreans are really good at StarCraft" stereotype. There's no danger here, lmao. | ||
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bypLy
757 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:27 RPR_Tempest wrote: Except, no. They aren't. Literally everyone, even people who know nothing about StarCraft know about the "Koreans are really good at StarCraft" stereotype. There's no danger here, lmao. I basically want Apollo to say on any move a foreigner does: "Ok, look at this play, this is very good non-korean play. Look at this micro. Definatly, very well done for foreign standards. He doesnt have his third base up, which any decent korean would have had up running for three minutes but now he lands it, which is very good considering he is just a foreign player.." | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
On February 20 2015 22:20 bypLy wrote: thats the point, the casuals dont know this... and they are fooled, while on the same hand good koreans are actually disrespected ??? This makes no sense to me. When are Korean players disrespected ? Did the casters say "Wow, Zest or Rain would definitely have been too stubborn to pull out this move, what strategical thinking by MaNa" or "That baneling focus fire by Bunny was amazing, fortunately we have WCS to see those clutch micro moves we don't see in GSL or SS2L" ? No. They're even quite genuine about the players mistakes, for instance they made it quite clear that Bunny really misread the situation vs MaNa in the Overgrowth game. I'm tired with people bashing foreigners without any consideration for the dedication they put into the game and their actual skill. If you weren't watching the games with that "those players do not compete in Korea therefore they must be God awful" flag you wouldn't say such bullshit. I watch both GSL/SS2L and WCS and you see abysmally dumb mistakes in Korea too. Koreans are better, yes. But WCS players are good too. | ||
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