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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On February 16 2015 21:24 deth wrote:I didn't agree with any part of this post, but I wanted to address this point specifically. Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 21:01 NarAliya wrote:
But maps keep getting larger and larger so there are no rush distances. Current and future units do not reward micro. Expansions are way to close together and easy to get.
LotV's economy changes, by design, should help to mitigate (albeit not eliminate) deathball play. Depending on map design, this should lead to more games where constant small engagements all over the map reign supreme. Its simple: More bases = army must split up over a larger area. More small engagements = More rewarding micromanagement. All new units announced for LotV with the exception of the lurker require substantial micro.
Without complete redesign of Protoss it won't change anything. Protoss is designed as THE deathball race. That's why they have the only hero unit in the game. That's why they have planetary cannon with the range of a siege tank.
They can change bases as they like, but how is Protoss player supposed to defend his main when he is on his 4th? Now you have problems to defend your main when you are taking your 3rd!! E.g. KSS, Catallena.
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On February 16 2015 21:42 Aervhorn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 05:37 Noocta wrote:
Sounds to me they still have no idea in which direction going and they're testing random stuff they throw at each other in meetings. I work in a lab and I approve of this notion!
Hahah < 3
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Psione said that Shade had no manual activation. I wonder if he meant meant no manual deactivation, or if Shade is actually constantly cycling and teleporting the unit.
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On February 16 2015 12:03 Hotshot wrote:
Honestly, as long as swarm host are in this game, I highly doubt ill play it unless its FTP.
Of all the reasons to not play LotV, that's a pretty bad one. They're completely revamping it, instead of being turtley infinite waves of Locusts it'll be an active harass unit.
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I think from what we have seen today on the rotterdam stream, zergs attempt to use the swarmhost like the previous one. In mass numbers, supported by statics, kiting at each wave. I did not expect, even someone at the level of snute, to be as succesful as he was playing like this. In fact, I am not sure I like that the new swarmhost can be used as a part of the core army. It would be like seeing phoenixes being a part of the core protoss army in ZVP just in mass numbers, even without mutalisks on the field, or it would be like seeing mass oracle work in all matchups, at least it is the feeling i am trying to rationalize. I think the unit is best seen as a core harass unit not necessarily going beyond the numbers of 12-20, or at least not being a part of the deathball army. I don´t claim that players should not be able to use units just the way they want instead of the way blizzard intends them to, but if we are redesigning the swarm host, and we want to reduce the amount of super lategame games, why even change the unit?
However, without being too pessimistic, I think currently the average gamelength has probably been 30 minutes and I think that is a very reasonable gamelength for any unit. So my last words would be yes, this looks good, but we gotta be skeptic about the direction of the unit utility.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ga7aBGY.jpg)
make it happen blizzard
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On February 17 2015 09:40 a176 wrote:make it happen blizzard
It already exists. Oracle with static ward and phase prisms.
Protoss in SC2 is too mobile to have arbiters. It's like to give terran a stimpack to all units.
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On February 16 2015 00:02 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 23:53 Jenia6109 wrote:
FF is the problem only in PvZ. But in LotV zerg will have roach free burrow movement, ravager and lurker to counter FF. So the problem is solved! Except Protoss needs FF to trade with Roaches at all before having upgraded gateway units. I foresee many Protoss dying to Roach/Ravager rushes in alpha/beta before something is changed about that.
I think that this might have a good long-term outcome (i.e. weakening forcefields, compensating).
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remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race.
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On February 17 2015 11:12 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race.
I understand why people say Warpgate isn't very skilful (since it makes all-ins so easy) but why are Forcefields seen as skilless? The Protoss literally have to cast multiple spells just to trade efficiently in early game engagements, while other races can just amove.
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Not bad. But no update on the cyclone............................................
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Bisutopia19343 Posts
On February 17 2015 11:18 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:It will + Show Spoiler +
In a LotV campaign mission
I just hope the make a campaign compelling enough to want to play SC3 down the road.
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On February 17 2015 11:39 Krobolt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 11:12 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race. I understand why people say Warpgate isn't very skilful (since it makes all-ins so easy) but why are Forcefields seen as skilless? The Protoss literally have to cast multiple spells just to trade efficiently in early game engagements, while other races can just amove.
No they cant.
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On February 17 2015 12:06 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 11:39 Krobolt wrote:On February 17 2015 11:12 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race. I understand why people say Warpgate isn't very skilful (since it makes all-ins so easy) but why are Forcefields seen as skilless? The Protoss literally have to cast multiple spells just to trade efficiently in early game engagements, while other races can just amove. No they cant.
What do they have to do, then?
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I do like forcefields in some situations.
I love parting pvz early 8ish sentries move out with obs to clear creep and get an earlier third with the extra minerals.
To secure it relies on buying time with forcefields and getting the colossus out
I love how it delays flanks and allow protoss to crush one part of the flank and reposition once the ff runs out.
But the problem is just that it seems to provide more bad games than good ones
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On February 16 2015 22:27 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2015 21:24 deth wrote:I didn't agree with any part of this post, but I wanted to address this point specifically. On February 16 2015 21:01 NarAliya wrote:
But maps keep getting larger and larger so there are no rush distances. Current and future units do not reward micro. Expansions are way to close together and easy to get.
LotV's economy changes, by design, should help to mitigate (albeit not eliminate) deathball play. Depending on map design, this should lead to more games where constant small engagements all over the map reign supreme. Its simple: More bases = army must split up over a larger area. More small engagements = More rewarding micromanagement. All new units announced for LotV with the exception of the lurker require substantial micro. Without complete redesign of Protoss it won't change anything. Protoss is designed as THE deathball race. That's why they have the only hero unit in the game. That's why they have planetary cannon with the range of a siege tank. They can change bases as they like, but how is Protoss player supposed to defend his main when he is on his 4th? Now you have problems to defend your main when you are taking your 3rd!! E.g. KSS, Catallena.
Warp-ins + Photon Cannons. It's partially why I always try to leave 10-20 supply open in the late/super-late game.
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On February 17 2015 12:23 Krobolt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 12:06 Big J wrote:On February 17 2015 11:39 Krobolt wrote:On February 17 2015 11:12 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race. I understand why people say Warpgate isn't very skilful (since it makes all-ins so easy) but why are Forcefields seen as skilless? The Protoss literally have to cast multiple spells just to trade efficiently in early game engagements, while other races can just amove. No they cant. What do they have to do, then?
Micro, since every unit in the game has basic microability and if you don't do it yourself you will get outmicroed.
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It seems to be LotV is heading towards more moba-like micro centric units rather than overall macro and strats.
That isn't bad but it sure feels like it.
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On February 17 2015 11:39 Krobolt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 11:12 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
remove forcefields and warpgate tech already. make protoss a skillfull race. I understand why people say Warpgate isn't very skilful (since it makes all-ins so easy) but why are Forcefields seen as skilless? The Protoss literally have to cast multiple spells just to trade efficiently in early game engagements, while other races can just amove.
Firstly, no race ever can "just a-move", maybe up to Diamond but after that every race requires skill to fight properly.
The problem with forcefields is not that they dont take skill, they certainly do, but they are this completely binary mechanic that your opponent can't do anything about. Once an enemy is trapped in forcefields, it's(almost always) over and you win the fight.
Every other micro mechanic has some sort of escape mechanic except for forcefields and fungal. People have stopped complaining about fungal because it's super hard for zerg to do a proper follow-up. Rolling in banelings is an okay-ish idea but that cuts into your army quite a lot, and it can also be taken care off(by having ranged units or units that don't really take that much damage from them).
Now look at a typical PvZ, if the P has got a few colossi together with forcefields and he traps the zerg's army, it's almost 100% completely dead. Nothing the zerg can do except never fight his army. Which is not a great idea either since if you let Protoss have map control, he can use forcefields to just never let Z_s army inside his main base, or his third, or (...). Nothing Z can do about that.
Now of course there's a whole lot more to PvZ and it's not always that harsh, but thats the kind of situation people think of when they hear forcefield. Remember Archon Toilet? People hated that shit as well even though it was, for the most time, the only reliable way a Protoss could win PvZ in WoL.
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EPT
