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Legacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 24

Forum Index > SC2 General
732 CommentsPost a Reply
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royalroadweed
Profile Joined April 2013
United States8301 Posts
February 14 2015 21:08 GMT
#461
On February 15 2015 05:24 RaFox17 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2015 05:20 TheDwf wrote:
On February 15 2015 05:12 Grumbels wrote:
What's actually stopping Blizzard from adding overkill to tanks and rebalancing accordingly? Is it mostly that the phrase isn't zooming around reddit and battle.net so the development team doesn't take notice (maybe this is too cynical)?

There should be discussions around this, yes, but from memory Blizzard has some weird policy about not wanting to "dumb down" the IA of units; yet units go full derp around Forcefields since 5 years. Go figure.

Ultras don´t even need FF for that :D

Neither do thors. BW goliaths seem more responsive.
"Nerfing Toss can just make them stronger"
FuzzyKuriboh
Profile Joined February 2015
United States2 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-14 21:53:38
February 14 2015 21:50 GMT
#462
I hate how LOTV is beginning to resemble more MOBA and less RTS. I want to be rewarded for macro and army positioning, and less so for spending 200 apm on a single oracle or warp prism. As a low level toss player, here are some of my ideas for LOTV (mainly toss related). Basically the idea is to make toss more solid in the midgame and reduce reliance on gimmicks to survive.

Zealot
Remove charge. Increase natural move speed with upgrade (like BW).

Positioning zealots to be in front and getting surrounds becomes more important.

New unit - the Cragoon
Costs ~120/50/2. Built at gateway after getting cybercore. 5 range. Attacks ground only. Speed ~2.25-2.5. HP/shield = 80/80. Around 6-7 dps. Can research an ability at cybercore for 100/100/100s that gives new unit ability to recharge other units shield by depleting its own shield by twice the amount (so it depletes entire shield after recharging 40 shield to another unit). Shield recharge rate is ~1/2 the rate of medivac heal (probably need to play around with this to balance correctly). Cragoons can't attack while using ability. Ability can be autocast.

This should help toss in the midgame and force them to make a decision of whether to research warpgate or this ability first. Small clusters of Cragoon/zealot should be able to fight fairly well with small clusters of MM or ling/roach. Micro is rewarded to the opponent by targeting down units. Toss will also have to make the choice of whether the Cragoon should attack or heal.

Sentry
Guardian shield costs 50 energy. Forcefield costs 75 energy so it can't be abused without significantly investing in sentries.

Stalker
Now requires twilight council to make. Costs ~175/125 but can be scaled appropriately. HP/shield = 100/100. Higher DPS to reflect increase in cost. Still can research blink.

Stalker now becomes stronger midgame unit, but requires more tech and time to build to prevent blink stalker snowballing. However, toss might become significantly weaker against drops.

MSC
Remove photon overcharge. Maybe even remove the unit entirely and give recall to the oracle or something.

Oracle
Remove the stupid pulsar beam ability. Replace with normal attack similar to arbiter in BW. Slightly increase HP. Replace stasis trap with stasis field and require stasis field upgade from fleet beacon. Keep the combined revelation/detection ability.

Oracle becomes a support unit that can scout in the midgame.

Warp prism
Revert the drop range back to HOTS.

Collosus
Don't know about this one. Basically toss needs something AOE without a hard counter but also doesn't shred armies in 1 second. I'm thinking something like cut dps in half, shrink AOE, costs 250/175. Slightly lower movespeed. Remove range upgrade. Can no longer be targeted by air.

Other
Personally, I think the fights are too short because there's too much AOE in the game. Rather than reduce game speed, just reduce the AOE range of everything (siege tanks, mines, storm, fungal, emp, colossus, etc...) Increase size of marines slightly so that they don't clump so much. This will lower the amount of DPS they dish/take.

For economy changes, I don't like the 12 workers since that basically eliminates early game. I would prefer the HOTS economy, but just remove 2 mineral patches per game, so that optimal/full saturation is 12/18 per base.

Thanks for reading!

Edit: also remove the disruptor. Invincible AOE units are stupid.
MarlieChurphy
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States2063 Posts
February 14 2015 22:27 GMT
#463
Scan range experimentation

We've also seen some community feedback about changes that can be made to the scan range to increase the responsiveness of units in combat. We’ve made some adjustments internally and we’re initially liking how it plays out. This is something we’re planning on testing further in the beta.


Woah, blizzard doing something right and listening to the community for once.
RIP SPOR 11/24/11 NEVAR FORGET
MarlieChurphy
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
United States2063 Posts
February 14 2015 22:36 GMT
#464
What is this Air ability they talked about switching off the infestor to the viper?
RIP SPOR 11/24/11 NEVAR FORGET
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
February 14 2015 22:51 GMT
#465
On February 15 2015 04:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:
[...]

Show nested quote +
On February 14 2015 18:49 ZenithM wrote:
On February 14 2015 18:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On February 14 2015 18:39 ZenithM wrote:
On February 14 2015 16:29 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 14 2015 12:00 ROOTFayth wrote:
why does blizzard need to make mech work?

Because Swarm Hosts and Protoss deathball suck and are boring and noskill while Mech is an insanely exciting, fun, skill-based, fast-paced, action-packed style of play.

Haha, fair enough. Honestly I'm Terran and I'm not too keen on seeing mech viable, especially at low levels of play. Don't want to have to wait 20 minutes to kill a gold noob with my decayed MMR :O


Then kill them. Mech is extremely vulnerable. That doesn't mean we don't need a viable mech for the best SC2 possible.

because they hate that Terran is so much reliant on micro and reaction time. I love it about Terran so I don't want that to go away.

Then play bio. Mech being viable does not mean that bio has to go. Diversity should not suffer because of your personal tastes.


It wasn't my point actually. My point was that basing a design decision on the community wanting an easier game is bad. I know that most in this thread think only about the diversity of gameplay and that's well and good, I can't argue with that, but I can guaranty you most of the player base just wants mech to be easier to play, not more interesting to play. How many times did you read on TL: "Damn, Protoss is crushing me with Psistorm, can't manage to split well and kite, I wish mech was viable vs P"? I don't like wanting a playstyle to be viable as a cop out. I don't want Blizzard to give in to those demands. Make mech interesting if you got a good novel idea for it, don't make the current mech stronger with plain buffs or nerfs, like nerfing immortals or adding damage vs shields to siege tanks or some boring shit that can only lead to a rise of "patch mech'ers" of some sort.
And for the record, I agree that mech is cool as fuck in BW, but it seems like quite an ordeal to port something equivalent in SC2, obviously.
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
February 14 2015 22:55 GMT
#466
On February 15 2015 03:30 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2015 03:13 Sapphire.lux wrote:
On February 15 2015 02:26 TheDwf wrote:
On February 15 2015 02:19 MrFreeman wrote:
On February 15 2015 01:15 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On February 15 2015 00:54 MrFreeman wrote:
What they need to do, is making the game less stressful. Many ppl play little, take breaks or outright quit, because the game-play is too stressful.
I think if they made it easier to control all your stuff, less efficiently, but still control, like every skill with optional auto-cast with option setting for default value (on/off), queuing buildings and units I don´t have resources for. Some smarter unit command queuing (they wait for energy / when skill is usable / when path is clear), notifications, when unit is blocked, some better notifications in general.
Of course, it has to be balanced and thoroughly tested, but if ppl could enjoy thinking about their strategies, instead of freaking out about the chaos among their ranks, it would surely be gr8 and would bring more ppl in or back.

I'm not set on game speed, but I think that in order to make the game less stressful, it would be great if things like mines sweeping entire probe lines or oracles ravaging scv lines if not well prepared were looked at. Disruptor doesn't worry me as much, it comes very late. But oracle is plain badly designed. It should be given more all around utility -I've always advocated for it as a permanent detector- and far less offensive power.


I´m not sure how much would that help, but any improvement would be gr8 and could help the playerbase grow and probably have huge effect in the long run, with more ppl staying and never quitting, cuz they could just hop in for a few casual games, have some fun and get back to work, study, whatever...

Part of what makes the game stressful is also that the economy grows too fast. At lower levels, this is somewhat mitigated by people having bad macro, but the 12 workers change will propel players even faster towards midgame, where the big clashs of armies occur.

But the "noobs" want to play with big armies and hate the slow build up.

It's a difficult question this of stress and i don't think anyone has ever solved it.

Fun is the most important for non-competitive play. It comes from interesting action rather than sheer mass of units; otherwise we wouldn't have so many complaints from low level players regarding max engagements being too brutal/fast/unforgiving.

"noobs" want to play with the biggest and most "coolest" units. Things like Thors, Momaship, colossus, have been built with this in mind.

I'm not saying i agree, but i think that is what Blizz(DB) thinks
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Sapphire.lux
Profile Joined July 2010
Romania2620 Posts
February 14 2015 23:00 GMT
#467
Thing is though, i think he's right. When i first started BW, i wanted mass BC, and Carriers, and D+G and we all meet in the centre of the map 20 min later.

Thing was though, i did this playing with friends, not on the fuckin ladder. I guess Blizz just did not understand that making a fun (AND ACCESSIBLE) experience for custom games was super important
Head Coach Park: "They should buff tanks!"
Lexender
Profile Joined September 2013
Mexico2647 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-14 23:25:28
February 14 2015 23:25 GMT
#468
On February 15 2015 07:51 ZenithM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2015 04:26 DemigodcelpH wrote:
[...]

On February 14 2015 18:49 ZenithM wrote:
On February 14 2015 18:42 DemigodcelpH wrote:
On February 14 2015 18:39 ZenithM wrote:
On February 14 2015 16:29 OtherWorld wrote:
On February 14 2015 12:00 ROOTFayth wrote:
why does blizzard need to make mech work?

Because Swarm Hosts and Protoss deathball suck and are boring and noskill while Mech is an insanely exciting, fun, skill-based, fast-paced, action-packed style of play.

Haha, fair enough. Honestly I'm Terran and I'm not too keen on seeing mech viable, especially at low levels of play. Don't want to have to wait 20 minutes to kill a gold noob with my decayed MMR :O


Then kill them. Mech is extremely vulnerable. That doesn't mean we don't need a viable mech for the best SC2 possible.

because they hate that Terran is so much reliant on micro and reaction time. I love it about Terran so I don't want that to go away.

Then play bio. Mech being viable does not mean that bio has to go. Diversity should not suffer because of your personal tastes.


It wasn't my point actually. My point was that basing a design decision on the community wanting an easier game is bad. I know that most in this thread think only about the diversity of gameplay and that's well and good, I can't argue with that, but I can guaranty you most of the player base just wants mech to be easier to play, not more interesting to play. How many times did you read on TL: "Damn, Protoss is crushing me with Psistorm, can't manage to split well and kite, I wish mech was viable vs P"? I don't like wanting a playstyle to be viable as a cop out. I don't want Blizzard to give in to those demands. Make mech interesting if you got a good novel idea for it, don't make the current mech stronger with plain buffs or nerfs, like nerfing immortals or adding damage vs shields to siege tanks or some boring shit that can only lead to a rise of "patch mech'ers" of some sort.
And for the record, I agree that mech is cool as fuck in BW, but it seems like quite an ordeal to port something equivalent in SC2, obviously.


I think you are just putting your frustrations as arguments, mech is pretty hard to pull of in the high levels (just like any other style), Adding good harrasing/map control units to mech was always one of the biggest problems of mech (hence the cyclone, faster banshees, siege tank drops, etc). Saying that mech isn't and will never be a fun style is just using very narrow parts of it, if current mech can gives us games like ForGG vs Life and MMA vs Dark, I don't see how we can't make games to play more like that and less like Reality vs Soulkey.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
February 14 2015 23:32 GMT
#469
On February 15 2015 02:03 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 14 2015 23:37 Big J wrote:
1. For these sorts of statments to be verified you actually need to ask the game designers about their design intentions. And blizzard has said they intented to make stargate-based play more viable and autonomous in the past, so the comparison is very valid from my point of view.
(of course the actual gameplay is different, while Skytoss does largely rely on gateway support by by intentional design decisions, Factory based play is even more autonomous throughout most of the game, though still quite dependend on Starport play by design decisions of HotS at least)

Then show me the working Stargate core duo from WoL. Zealots/Phoenixes/Voids? Zealots/Phoenixes/Carriers? Never worked at any point in SC2 history. Adding Oracles or Tempests changed nothing to that. Even stuff where Voids are core like Zealots/Voids/Storm or Stalkers/Voids/Colossi cannot be called "skytoss".


I don't understand the first part of your argument. Zealot/Phoenix/Void didn't work in WoL means it isn't intended to work in HotS or in the future of SC2 or what do you want to say? Because that's true for Hellion/Tank/Thor from WoL or HotS too, which you claim is designed to work despite it has proven not to.
And you say Zealot/Void/Storm isn't "skytoss" when the protoss has half of his army supply and even more of his army cost in stargate units, yet you claim that building 15vikings and 10medivacs and if it's advantagous you also add 10mines - none of which have the biological trait nor come from the barracks - is "bio-play". I understand that we can differentiate between skytoss and stargate-based styles if we want to go deep, but if that is your whole "skytoss wasn't supposed to be autonomous, yet mech was"-argument then all you do is fucking with phrases that aren't even hard defined to begin with.
In particular I already wrote:
Skytoss does largely rely on gateway support by by intentional design decisions


On February 15 2015 02:03 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +
3. I don't see why the only way to play against Mech should be the ways of bio Terran for Protoss and Zerg. Terran can also choose to play Mech vs Mech. This goes basically to my response to 2. The game should allow me to make some deeper stylistic choices regardless of my opponent's stylistic choices.

I didn't mean it should be the only one, I simply think this is the one who produces the best games (so the design team should put particular effort into that kind of dynamic). Other game plans where you build your best ground army without much interaction or you rush straight to a lategame counter-fleet (e. g. Tempests or Carriers rushes) are more passive. It doesn't mean they should be "forbidden," but if they keep being the standard (such as Swarm host vs Raven play), people will keep complaining about camping or endless trench wars.

Yeah that makes sense.
custombuild
Profile Joined August 2014
31 Posts
February 15 2015 03:09 GMT
#470
Hopefully these changed will bring more new people to the game.

I really wish that the old units could be made accessible in customs.
Blizzkrieg
Profile Joined March 2014
95 Posts
February 15 2015 04:00 GMT
#471
Resource changes: We’re feeling more confident about the proposed resource changes from our last update. This change lowers half of the minerals to 50% of their Heart of the Swarm value while leaving the other half at their current HotS value of 1500. Internally, we’re seeing that this change not only encourages expansion across the map, but each base location remains a high point of contention. Assuming internal testing continues this way, it’s looking like we’ll go to beta with this change where we can see testing on a much larger scale with a wider variety of skill levels.


Does this mean they're sticking with 6 workers at the start of the game, as opposed to the idea of using 12?
Man is equally incapable of seeing the nothingness from which he emerges and the infinity in which he is engulfed. -Blaise Pascal
GiveMeCake
Profile Joined October 2010
148 Posts
February 15 2015 05:39 GMT
#472
"Experimenting with slowing down the pacing of combat in SC2

This is a topic we got a lot of community feedback on, so we did some heavy exploration in this area. The biggest thing we tried here was reducing the attack speed of each unit in the game by 40% and altering some damage values to compensate. Even though a change like this would seemingly have a huge implication on balance, we realized the gain wasn’t as big as we expected. Games feel different from before, but the main question has to be “Is this a positive change that makes games better?” We’re just not sure of this yet. For example, we’re seeing that slower engagements seem to reduce the skill component in combat. Additionally, games feel more dragged out than before. But we’ve only had limited testing at this point, so we’ll continue to explore this area in more detail before making a final call.

Reducing skill by allowing more players to micro better is exactly what most people want. Once more players are on an even playing field and battles are not so volatile Blizzard can add in units with more mirco potential further increasing the skill gap. Doing so will leave the game at a level everyone can enjoy. The pros will all get better as a result and we will start to see true gods with 80% win rates rising to power creating unbelievable story lines and growing the fan-base.
I had a dream I moved to Korea to become a GSL champion. I slept in PC bangs and practiced only vs the PC. I named my self Death and faced Life in the finals. I beat him, but ended up dying as I killed his last building.
Incanus
Profile Joined October 2009
Canada695 Posts
February 15 2015 11:34 GMT
#473
Tempests and swarm hosts are why I don't play HotS. Kill the Tempest! Or at least, shrink it, make it faster, decrease cost, and/or make it weaker. Reavers worked because they could at least be microed with shuttles. You don't get that with an air unit.

Tempest vs swarm host nightmares...
Flash: "Why am I so good?" *sob sob*
Xamo
Profile Joined April 2012
Spain880 Posts
February 15 2015 11:50 GMT
#474
On February 15 2015 00:54 MrFreeman wrote:
What they need to do, is making the game less stressful. Many ppl play little, take breaks or outright quit, because the game-play is too stressful..


I'm absolutely with you, the game can be much more appealing to a larger fan base if you remove frustration from the gameplay. Blizzard has made improvements in this area, and I think the idea of Archon mode is one of them, but there is still room to do lots of things.

I think if they made it easier to control all your stuff, less efficiently, but still control, like every skill with optional auto-cast with option setting for default value (on/off), queuing buildings and units I don´t have resources for. Some smarter unit command queuing (they wait for energy / when skill is usable / when path is clear), notifications, when unit is blocked, some better notifications in general.


+1 +1 +1 +1 specially to queuing of units w/o having resources or supply

I would add:
- AI-aided auto-creation of pilons, depots, overlords. Even EXPANSIONS. Not as efficient as when player-controlled, for example the depot is started so that later on you are supply-blocked for some seconds, but not heavily. An expansion is created if you float at 1000k minerals for a couple of minutes... etc
- Selectable gamespeed for low-level leagues: Normal/fast/fastest for bronce, fast/fastest for silver. The game would select the middle point of the settings requested by the players.

Of course, it has to be balanced and thoroughly tested, but if ppl could enjoy thinking about their strategies, instead of freaking out about the chaos among their ranks, it would surely be gr8 and would bring more ppl in or back.


The AI is quite dumb, so no high level or pro player - or even medium-level - would probably turn these things on. Tournament rules could even prevent it from happening. But it would be SO helpful to make the game funnier for low-level players... and those are the larger part of past 100k spectators of some tournaments.


My life for Aiur. You got a piece of me, baby. IIIIIIiiiiiii.
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 12:11:34
February 15 2015 12:04 GMT
#475
Is this a troll or am I missing something?
AI-aided auto-supply and auto-expand? Turn on auto-micro and auto-star-sense-proxy-scouting while you're at it.

Actually maybe turn Starcraft into a RTS-gamer management game. You pick your RTS-gamers, upgrade their stats as they gain XP points, build the strongest roster and they auto-play for you.
You can buy gems at the store to upgrade their stats faster and compete online for the right to pay for more gems. And don't forget to download the iOS and Android companion apps. iPad version coming up.

Edit: Actually a kind of noob league where controls are super easy and tons of UI aids are enabled doesn't sound so bad.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
February 15 2015 12:18 GMT
#476
On February 15 2015 20:34 Incanus wrote:
Tempests and swarm hosts are why I don't play HotS. Kill the Tempest! Or at least, shrink it, make it faster, decrease cost, and/or make it weaker. Reavers worked because they could at least be microed with shuttles. You don't get that with an air unit.

Tempest vs swarm host nightmares...

ALL HotS units except viper and rededesign units are garbage.

They need too downsize the importance of CC/Nexus/Hatch too. They are too powerful because of Scan/MULE/Chrono/Larvas, thats why players prefer to kill that building than workers, especially in Lategame.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Haighstrom
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom199 Posts
February 15 2015 13:19 GMT
#477
I don't like how most of these changes move LOTV back closer to HOTS. It's in danger of being too conservative in the changes.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
February 15 2015 13:43 GMT
#478
On February 15 2015 22:19 Haighstrom wrote:
I don't like how most of these changes move LOTV back closer to HOTS. It's in danger of being too conservative in the changes.

And kills alot high potential maps. We can do make great maps for ZvT but Protoss kills it because of neccessary FF. Removes FF and give sentries a spell like +1 attack.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24202 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 13:44:27
February 15 2015 13:43 GMT
#479
On February 15 2015 21:18 Dingodile wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2015 20:34 Incanus wrote:
Tempests and swarm hosts are why I don't play HotS. Kill the Tempest! Or at least, shrink it, make it faster, decrease cost, and/or make it weaker. Reavers worked because they could at least be microed with shuttles. You don't get that with an air unit.

Tempest vs swarm host nightmares...

ALL HotS units except viper and rededesign units are garbage.


Indeed. I would say the widow mine and the hellbat have some redeeming aspects, but oracle, tempest and swarm host were huge failures. Mothership core is special, since medivac boost and muta regen are interesting but P can't deal with them without overcharge unless big tweaks happen.

Proving once again that adding units over units when unnecessary does more harm than good.
Jenia6109
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Russian Federation1612 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-15 14:54:00
February 15 2015 14:53 GMT
#480
FF is the problem only in PvZ. But in LotV zerg will have roach free burrow movement, ravager and lurker to counter FF. So the problem is solved!
INnoVation TY Maru | Classic Stats Dear sOs Zest herO | Rogue Dark soO
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