Legacy of the Void: Multiplayer Development Update - Page 25

On February 15 2015 23:53 Jenia6109 wrote:
FF is the problem only in PvZ. But in LotV zerg will have roach free burrow movement, ravager and lurker to counter FF. So the problem is solved!

On February 15 2015 22:43 [PkF] Wire wrote:


Indeed. I would say the widow mine and the hellbat have some redeeming aspects, but oracle, tempest and swarm host were huge failures. Mothership core is special, since medivac boost and muta regen are interesting but P can't deal with them without overcharge unless big tweaks happen.

Proving once again that adding units over units when unnecessary does more harm than good.

On February 16 2015 00:30 DemigodcelpH wrote:

Agreed. Tempest and Swarmhost should be removed. But definitely the Tempest more than anything else.

On February 16 2015 02:53 FabledIntegral wrote:


SH does far more harm to the game than Tempest. Tempest are admittedly dumb too, but SH will prolong games insanely long as well as make them frustrating. Tempest are just dumb from a design standpoint, but at least don't make the games go an extra 30 minutes once they come out.

On February 16 2015 03:07 RaFox17 wrote:

Many zergs would say it´s really frustrating to get rolled over by a death ball. SH are the one thing that allows zerg to hold back toss and mech. Not the most interesting style but without SH zerg would have lots of trouble.

On February 16 2015 03:07 RaFox17 wrote:

Many zergs would say it´s really frustrating to get rolled over by a death ball. SH are the one thing that allows zerg to hold back toss and mech. Not the most interesting style but without SH zerg would have lots of trouble.

On February 16 2015 05:23 darkness wrote:


If that's the case, then swarm host is a shit fix. You should ask for better.

On February 16 2015 02:53 FabledIntegral wrote:


SH does far more harm to the game than Tempest. Tempest are admittedly dumb too, but SH will prolong games insanely long as well as make them frustrating. Tempest are just dumb from a design standpoint, but at least don't make the games go an extra 30 minutes once they come out.

On February 16 2015 05:23 darkness wrote:


If that's the case, then swarm host is a shit fix. You should ask for better.

On February 16 2015 08:02 DemigodcelpH wrote:

The Tempest not only betrays Protoss and counters the Carrier out of existence, but it also counters the Terran capital ship and Z massive air (Z doesn't have a capital ship-type unit on the same scale as P and T, but BL is the closest) out of existence. It's a brainless EXTREME hardcounter unit that significantly impacts diversity (they didn't learn anything from the Immortal), and should've never been added because the original goal was to give Protoss something to help with mutas which the Tempest did in alpha but doesn't do anymore. They changed their mind, but still added the unit anyways even though it no longer had any official purpose. And look how it ended up. The Tempest is just about as toxic as the SH which is why I mentioned that both should be moved.

On February 16 2015 19:42 fealx wrote:
Seems like the beta will be total chaos again like in WOL and HOTS before

On February 13 2015 07:47 GoraKasul wrote:
I really don't like the direction the Protoss design is heading. To me it feels like they are repeating the exact same mistake they did with HotS. The idea behind the new units seems to be:
"We want Protoss to not aim for a deathball in every game but instead focus more on other stuff. Players demand another gateway unit. As a result we will provide a new gateway unit that works well in everything BUT a deathball."
The problem here is that this was the intention behind the oracle aswell. A unit that works well in most stages of the game but cannot be massed or put into a 1-hotkey-deathball. And yet every protoss still aims to get to a solid deathball for the later stages of the game. The oracle, and most likely the new unit aswell, is only the means by which players achieve that goal. While it was kinda OK-ish for HotS since Protoss did not have that many different harass based openings during WoL, it's really not needed in LotV. We already have the Blinkstalkers, DTs, Warpprism, Phoenix and Oracle for exactly that task.

What's needed most, in my opinion at least, is another solid core army unit that trades well even on its own - unlike almost all other Protoss units. A Protoss army usually consists of many different units for a reason; each one of those units almost never trades well with the core army units of the other races. Unless in a chokepoint a Zealot will always lose to 4 Zerglings. A Stalker will lose to a Marauder. On top of the worse direct combat performance per ressource spend they also have the worst mobility compared to all other core units.
Protoss units combat that deficit by having great synergy with each other and working very well in a maxed out army due to each unit having a dedicated roll in such an army.
What that causes, however, is that the Protoss player usually keeps his army together since the parts of the army will perform fairly horribly when not supported by the other units. 2 Colossus left on their own against a small group of Marine/Marauder will usually just roll over and die without causing any damage - as we have recently seen in the herO vs. Maru game in the Proleague Playoffs. Same goes for a bunch of Stalker left alone.

Unless the new unit will be able to reliably end the game on it's own the Protoss will need to build up an army that is able to both beat the enemy army and end the game. And we're basically back to the WoL beta. There is a reason why the army that Stats used to win his NSSL r8 match against Rogue looks so similar to the army that MC used during the later stages of WoL... which in turn looked similar to an army that White-Ra used during the WoL beta. It's all that Protoss has been doing for the last 4 years and I'd be sad if nothing changes with LotV.

This general problem can be further examined by comparing the TvZ to any PvX matchup. The reason why I personally enjoy TvZ more than most other matchups is the fact that there are many small battles that start in the early game and continue well into the late lategame. It's rare that a single one of those battles decides the game but rather who came out ahead over the course of a dozen small skirmishes. It makes it both more action packed and easier to stage a spectacular comeback. Those games are usually percieved as back-and-forth with both commentators and spectators at times not being sure which players is actually ahead in the game.
Protoss matchups are usually decided by a single engagement that neither player can effectively disengage from. The matches are dominated by a slow build-up of power from the Protoss with the Zerg/Terran trying to slow him down to get ahead in the eco game. It's rarely back-and-forth and comebacks are unlikely after a lost army engagement. If the protoss wins with his army still intact he usually won't be stopped in time. If the Protoss loses his army he won't be able to rebuild it in time to deflect the counterattack due to the core army units being very inefficient on their own against whatever the opponent brings to bear.

The poor performance of the gateway units becomes apparent when the Terran drops into the main (or any other expansion) of the Protoss while he is moving his army across the map or defending a different location. The main army will be too slow to defend against the drop and quick warp-ins will not be enough to defeat 1-2 medivacs of bio. As a result the Protoss player usually stays in his base and defends until he thinks that his army is strong enough to both kill the enemy and win a baserace.

The only way to change the stale and passive gameplay is to make another unit composition viable in the lategame aswell as provide the Protoss with a core unit that is strong enough to trade well against Marine/Marauder and basic Zerg units such as the Zergling or Roach.

A good example of such a unit is the Widowmine. Despite some of its flaws it achieves that role very well. It's both viable as an early game and lategame unit. It trades well on it's own and as a part of a large army. It can be produced quick and in large quantities. It controls space and can be used as a strong harass tool in combination with Medivacs.
If the Terran sends out some Widowmines in combination with Marines and Medivacs it is a very mobile squad that will trade well and not cause the Terran player to instantly lose the game if those units get annihilated.
The same is true with Ling/Blind and Roaches. But when was the last time you saw a Protoss move a bunch of Zealot/Stalker groups across the map against a Terran?

The more I think about it the more it seems that the Protoss really needs a Dragoon-type unit.

TL;DR:
The new Protoss unit sounds too similar to the Stalker and seems to follow the same design idea as the oracle. It won't change the fact that Protoss will still move in a deathball across the map and it won't change the fact that Protoss has to remain passive the majority of the game(s).
Can we please get a Gateway unit that still holds a candle against stimmed Bio or Roach/Hydra without relying on T3 splash tech?

On February 16 2015 21:01 NarAliya wrote:
But maps keep getting larger and larger so there are no rush distances. Current and future units do not reward micro. Expansions are way to close together and easy to get.

On February 13 2015 05:37 Noocta wrote:
Sounds to me they still have no idea in which direction going and they're testing random stuff they throw at each other in meetings.