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I don't know what I find more disgusting, the problem itself or people whose relevance has long faded or people have never had any real relevance, desperate for a couple of hundreds of Twitter views, claiming nonchalantly that they have known all along.
It's the same in German football, especially in the lower leagues. There are Albanian betting cartells that bet on and match fix third league (which would be basically Code B) matches. This isn't a helpful injection of money, it drives away legitimate sponsors, it destroys the legitimacy of the competition and thus it needs to go be nipped in the bud.
The way I understand it, this is the biggest problem:
When Kim Wang Wong, Korean gangster, bets on faceless KESPArian robot number #243 in Ro8 of Nobody-Cares-Weekly-Invitational #65, nobody has to actually oppose his bet. If Kim wins and nobody bets against him, he's just getting paid out of a pool. This doesn't actually hurt the betting organisers, because their pool is being fed regardless, so unless they care about longevity of the sport, which they can't afford to do, they will allow a system like that.
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On February 09 2015 13:46 Swoopae wrote:
@Jett I have no idea. They seem to be seperate events but it would not surprise me at all if players in Proleague (two in particular, and if you look at my post/twitter history you know which two I suspect they are) are involved in illegal betting/match fixing.
I always lurk at TeamLiquid for what it's worth, I just don't post that often here.
With the proleague games in question there was no delay, and the suspicions were raised due to absurd amounts of money coming in on bets that would yield an incredibly negative expectation over time. This leads me to believe if something shady was going on, which is objectively likely, it was a player throwing a game deliberately.
The evidence for this more recent betting scandal seems to be even more overwhelming, in this case there would not need to be player involvement, but it would help. A 5-10 minute delay would make betting on a match, even one that isn't rigged, hugely profitable
For what it's worth I know of people (not in Korea) who have bookmakers who will just accept a major sportsbook's price on a game for larger limits, so we don't actually know how much money can be bet on a match but it's more than simply what can be bet on Pinnacle or any other sportsbook that offers esports. I have friends who regularly wager four figures on games (they're mostly high stakes poker players wagering with each other, and have nothing to do with the esports scene, mostly just degens with too much money). I do my own betting at Pinnacle as I rarely bet more than a few hundred a game and their limits allow that.
All I want is to see match fixing stamped out in Korea as I both want to be on a level playing field when making bets and I want to be able to enjoy the matches as a fan without having to worry about players throwing matches. Certainly, betting shouldn't be offered on matches that are on a delayed stream rather than a live one.
I was willing to let the thread die after all of the negative reactions my posts got last time and simply chalk it up to 'I hope Kepsa/Blizzard does something and i'm never betting on players x and y again because they're probably match fixing', hopefully now that people who are considered credible in the esports community are raising the questions rather than a 'random' like me we'll actually get some answers and the modern saviors who are ruining esports will be banished from this community as they thoroughly deserve to be. Lifetime bans are in order for anyone who has thrown any game for any sort of compensation and if money was changing hands to rig contests with prizemoney I hope the police in Korea (and anywhere else match fixing has occurred) take it seriously and prosecutes anyone proven to be involved in match fixing syndicates.
All I ask of the SC2 community is don't let this just 'go away' without a proper investigation. If it turns out that it was just one guy, great. Ban him and move on. There's a chance this is more widespread, although I haven't personally seen anything suspicious in Proleague since those two matches a few weeks ago and i've watched every game. This would be more widespread in minor tournaments if it's happening but if any 'star' players are involved then chances are it's happening from time to time in major tournaments as well.
Thanks for your input and participation.
I doubt we will let this just go away. I think many of us are eagerly waiting for word from Slasher. Going by the comments from SC2 personalities, it seems Blizzard is already aware of the issue, so a proper investigation has probably already started.
For what its worth, I really hated you when you tweeted about San, but now I see you are just as concerned about this game as the rest of us.
Lets hope this gets resolved, and practices/policies are put in place to prevent this from happening again.
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Yeah, my wording was bad, and I shouldn't have made a direct accusation. It got attention to the issue, and that sucks if San did nothing wrong (which i still doubt, and have stated i'll apologise for if a proper investigation clears him of any wrongdoing) but the problems are at least being addressed now and people who have access to the relevant information should be investigating
For what it's worth if no one has mentioned to Blizzard yet that Pinnacle are willing to cooperate w/ Kespa in an investigation they'd probably be willing to cooperate with Blizzard too and i'm sure they'd have valuable information about the IPs used to make the suspicious bets + their algorithms that flagged the matches as suspicious etc. (I realise this is likely a seperate issue from sponsors using delayed streams to bet illegally on minor tournaments but both should be investigated)
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Mal explained his situation last night in english and in korean what is going on and how he will proceed from now. Sad to see the possibility of tournament being cancelled since it was so fun.
Before the witchhunt starts, theses possibilities are kinda out of mind for most people hosting a starcraft 2 tournement. You guys need to give benefit of doubt before. Who in right mind would have thought about this possibility?
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I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt.
Who loses money because of this betting exploit?
The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money).
Who actually loses something because of this?
PS: im not defending it I just want to know
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On February 10 2015 10:02 ItzShakti wrote:
I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt.
Who loses money because of this betting exploit?
The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money).
Who actually loses something because of this?
PS: im not defending it I just want to know
the people who bet on the losing player.
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On February 10 2015 10:28 sc2chronic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 10:02 ItzShakti wrote:
I've been thinking about this and I have a doubt.
Who loses money because of this betting exploit?
The players get money for playing, the casters get stuff to cast, the people who bet before the "admin" betted knew what were so they wont lose money and the people who would bet after the admin betted knew that the odds werent right(so they just wont bet and wont lose money).
Who actually loses something because of this?
PS: im not defending it I just want to know the people who bet on the losing player.
They would lose their money even if the "sponsor" wasnt watching the game. Its not match fixing, its bet manipulation(or something like that).
Also the people who bet on the winning player wont get less money, as when u bet u already know how much money you're going to get if you win.
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Somebody in the betting world is losing money, obviously. Which is a bit of a "who cares" thing, although it may spin off to people who aren't personally doing stupid things (eg. their children, if they have any).
Real time access may also allow cheating with communication between bettors and players, and if the whole enterprise brings shady figures and players together that is probably not a good thing.
The best possible outcome is that these bettors ability to throw off the market makes the bookmakers avoid these tournaments.
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Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet.
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Swoopae should keep in mind the possibility of a better having insider info on San's injury condition, considering these betters apparently contact the players all the time through multiple avenues. Swoopae still does not know whether it's more or less likely that the better had insider info or San matchfixed, despite the "objectively likely" leaps of logic that have occurred in his head.
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On February 10 2015 11:34 Nebuchad wrote:
Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet.
I dont think its damaging for other betters.
If you had bet on the guy who lost, you would have lost ur money anyway.
If you had bet on the guy who won, unless you placed ur bet after the sponsor placed his, you are also going to get the same amount of money.
It makes almost no difference for the other betters, I think.
But its really bad that our scene is funded by this 
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 10 2015 11:47 ItzShakti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2015 11:34 Nebuchad wrote:
Shakti, this is kind of irrelevant. From the point of view of someone betting, the damage is the same as when a player fixes a match. In both cases, someone used an undisclosed information to gain an edge on the bet against him. Whether the information was insider info or the player losing on purpose, he still was denied a fair bet. I dont think its damaging for other betters. If you had bet on the guy who lost, you would have lost ur money anyway. If you had bet on the guy who won, unless you placed ur bet after the sponsor placed his, you are also going to get the same amount of money. It makes almost no difference for the other betters, I think. But its really bad that our scene is funded by this
You're not taking into account that betting lines move.
Say it's Maru vs Life (just a completely random example I've made up)
If Maru 2-raxes, and deals massive damage to Life within the first 5 minutes, the observer will see this and will probably bet on Maru.
Assuming they bet a relatively significant amount of money, this will cause the odds to change.
The more bet on Maru, the shorter the odds on Maru and the longer the odds on Life.
If you're a gambler, and see some really great odds on Life right before the start of the match (or so you think), you might be tempted to bet on Life, thus betting on someone who may already have already lost.
There's always cause and effect, you can't just take the insider bettors in isolation.
Edit: Having said that, bettors are hardly my biggest concern about all this
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So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
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Mute City2363 Posts
On February 10 2015 12:45 geokilla wrote:
So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
Nobody's forgotten, it's just useless to speculate when we have had no new info
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I wonder if instead of preventing people from betting with inside information on smaller tournaments, it might be better to make it so that no one in their right mind would be willing to. You could stream a tournament with a huge amount of delay (or even just stream from replays), and explicitly say that you'll be giving the results in advance to a select few.
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Doodsmack I already said that is a possibilty if you actually read the thread. We won't know until people far more qualified than me investigate. It's also a seperate issue to what's going on with these delayed stream ingame sponsors right now. Either way, I hope Kespa and Blizzard are looking into it.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 10 2015 12:45 geokilla wrote:
So it's been a whole day now. I guess Starcraft 2 really is about "coming soon" and nothing else... People have already forgotten about this just like how they forgot about Pinnacle voiding the bets on San vs Dark.
my pitchforking arm got tired
also kespa promised me they were investigating so yeah
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For those confused who this hurts...
For someone to win x amount in a bet, someone has to lose x amount in a bet. Whoever is betting on a match that has already been played is stealing from those he bet against.
Also wtf at the sentiment of who cares. The person getting stolen from most definitely cares.
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So annoying though.
If they have been knowing about it for half a year+, then why go and tweet about it without any proof. And then soon(TM) the proof? Why not just wait another week and release the proof with the tweets instead? Like one week compared to half a year is nothing. I just don't get it.
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We at Conn.Si (Connecting Slovenia) published a statement regarding the heated "shady Korean sponsor" debate, please feel free to read it. We urge the parties that are investigating the matter to contact us on info@conn.si, as we would like to help and get to the bottom of this shady betting thing. We are sincerely sorry if we caused any anger or offended anyone with our tournament. All we wished for was an awesome StarCraft II tournament.
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