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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On January 22 2015 00:43 GinDo wrote:
The only thing I dont like is that now the SH is exactly like the BL.
But w/e I welcome change.
Um, not exactly. It can be built faster, it's more mobile, it can be transported with Nydus, it is immune to tempests (kinda) and blink stalkers because of mobility, and it have longer range.
But if seriously, after this change I see no reason to build brood lord. They are more expensive, more vulnerable to everything, they require Hive + Greater spire, they are slow and have less health
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On January 22 2015 00:45 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:21 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:12 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:
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1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so.
Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg.
If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now.
But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense)
How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts. On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing? If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable. You won't use swarmhosts as main army anymore, that's exactly the point  The new swarmhost isn't actually good at fighting big mech armies , the old swarmhost wasn't goot at it either, BUT he made sure the mech army can't really move. The new sh doesn't do that. I don't agree with that. What would your main army be? Roaches? Why don't you agree with that? I think people have to start with roaches and transition into broodlord/corrupter/infestor as lategame army. Or maybe roach/hydra/viper to end it before super lategame. Swarmhosts maybe to harass a little bit (you don't need a lot of them for that purpose though). Maybe swarmhost timings become a thing now (cause they do more dps than before), but as time goes on locusts aren't really used to do a lot of dmg, they merely pin the mech army down. That won't really work with a 60 second delay between waves Because all those units you just listed are extremely vulnerable to Terran mech. Broodlords get shredded by Thors and Vikings, and Corruptors are extremely volatile as well without proper support. Support that Infestors could just give, but then Terran can 100% dictate the point of time, pace and positions of ANY engagement since you can only fungal outside of tank range. And Vipers really only help against terran mech balls, which is not the case against a smart player. Without Swarm Hosts to make room and give the Zerg the opportunity to dictate part of the engagement, Zerg is having an uphill struggle basically the whole time. Not considering that all of these units require different tech paths, upgrades and are expensive on their own and very, very easily lost.
Well blizzard already said that they are aware of possible issues fighting the other two races now. I think it is better to balance the game around more exciting units than having swarmhost reign supreme 
So yeah we will see if zerg can deal with mech now
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After all, I don't think that these changes are going to get through for at least 1 month, because a lot of new balance issues will pop up with this over time, and they will have to adjust other races as well.
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Is the test map online now? or is this a PTR thing?
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On January 22 2015 01:02 MrMatt wrote:
Is the test map online now? or is this a PTR thing?
They've said that test map is going to be out in the end of this, or start of the next week.
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By the way is anything going to ever come out of that widow mine change test ? Or is it sure that it won't go through ?
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Swarm hosts should just play like nydus Zagara keke
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On January 22 2015 00:47 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:43 GinDo wrote:
The only thing I dont like is that now the SH is exactly like the BL.
But w/e I welcome change. Um, not exactly. It can be built faster, it's more mobile, it can be transported with Nydus, it is immune to tempests (kinda) and blink stalkers because of mobility, and it have longer range. But if seriously, after this change I see no reason to build brood lord. They are more expensive, more vulnerable to everything, they require Hive + Greater spire, they are slow and have less health
With the long cooldown, SH are now (supposedly) relegated to a harass type role only.
If you're doing a huge push through the front/middle trying to break a fortified position, BL still show more value.
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Both Ravens and Swarm hosts are only problematic when massed.
I think it would be better to keep Swarm hosts and Ravens as they are but increase their supply to four.
That way Zerg could still use Swarm hosts in the midgame in order to transition to hive, but it would be harder to mass 20+ of them since they would take up a lot of supply.
Ravens would remain a good support unit, but less viable when massed since they would take up too much supply.
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Probably someone already pointed that out, but while I'm positive about the changes and their necessity, I'm also a bit worried:
1) what do zerg supposed to do against mech? and plz don't say "kill them before they get there", as it's forcing the zerg into ridiculous situation where he has a timer to kill a turtling terran, hammering it's head against a simcity protected by siege tanks.
2) how zerg will be able to deal with protoss deathball? again, solutions in the spirit of "rush them" does not qualify, since there is no point in turning this match-up into an all-in builds and counter-builds (not because it's not viable, but rather because of the small amount of scenarios the match up will produce).
I do want to state that I wasn't too concerned with this points in regards of LOTV because of 2 reasons:
1) I felt that the Lurker (with it's range upgrade) was a possible replacement for the SH.
2) More importently, the decrease in the amount of available resources in each base means that gearing up toward the late game unit composition is going to be harder.
Naturally, those circumstances does not apply in HOTS...
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On January 22 2015 03:34 batatm wrote:
Probably someone already pointed that out, but while I'm positive about the changes and their necessity, I'm also a bit worried:
1) what do zerg supposed to do against mech? and plz don't say "kill them before they get there", as it's forcing the zerg into ridiculous situation where he has a timer to kill a turtling terran, hammering it's head against a simcity protected by siege tanks.
2) how zerg will be able to deal with protoss deathball? again, solutions in the spirit of "rush them" does not qualify, since there is no point in turning this match-up into an all-in builds and counter-builds (not because it's not viable, but rather because of the small amount of scenarios the match up will produce).
They are aware of those concerns and will address them (by buffing Z in some way or by nerfing those compositions, which I think would be the right move -turtle mech and tempests do nothing good for the game) after they gather some pro feedback.
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On January 22 2015 02:03 MockHamill wrote:
Both Ravens and Swarm hosts are only problematic when massed.
I think it would be better to keep Swarm hosts and Ravens as they are but increase their supply to four.
That way Zerg could still use Swarm hosts in the midgame in order to transition to hive, but it would be harder to mass 20+ of them since they would take up a lot of supply.
Ravens would remain a good support unit, but less viable when massed since they would take up too much supply.
Man that would make getting an early Raven out against cloak banshee or hyper fast burrow roach play even more a pain in the ass
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On January 22 2015 03:52 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 02:03 MockHamill wrote:
Both Ravens and Swarm hosts are only problematic when massed.
I think it would be better to keep Swarm hosts and Ravens as they are but increase their supply to four.
That way Zerg could still use Swarm hosts in the midgame in order to transition to hive, but it would be harder to mass 20+ of them since they would take up a lot of supply.
Ravens would remain a good support unit, but less viable when massed since they would take up too much supply.
Man that would make getting an early Raven out against cloak banshee or hyper fast burrow roach play even more a pain in the ass
No, that doesn't matter much if you are getting a single Raven.
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Can we please get a burning behavior on buildings that fly for too long? Or just count them as units and not as buildings when they are flying?
Edit: And Crawlers obviously. Any form of moving buildings. I'd obviously like that, that's why I'm posting it ^^
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On January 22 2015 04:57 Big J wrote:
Can we please get a burning behavior on buildings that fly for too long? Or just count them as units and not as buildings when they are flying?
You'd like that, you Zerg filth.
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Wow um.....interesting....
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I guess zerg just isn't allowed to have cost effective units... Cant wait for the nerfs on the lurker.
As much as people dislike swarmhosts there seems to be a lack of understanding that they were the only unit that could give zerg sustainability. In WoL that role fell onto the infestor, but because apparently there wasn't enough counters for infestor based play they decided to just nerf it to shit just in time for HOTS, which gave zerg the swarm host. Out of necessity for many "mass em up" strats/2 base play the swarmhost became a staple to at least give the zerg something to hold onto, or someway to comeback after losing a third base.
I honestly think zerg is facing an identity crises, which wouldn't be so bad if the units themselves, weak as they maybe in blob fights, were changed to having lower supply - 1 supply abound for many of the zerg units. If that were the case I dont believe there would be such a need for such cost effective units and we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
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On January 22 2015 00:47 Existor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:43 GinDo wrote:
The only thing I dont like is that now the SH is exactly like the BL.
But w/e I welcome change. Um, not exactly. It can be built faster, it's more mobile, it can be transported with Nydus, it is immune to tempests (kinda) and blink stalkers because of mobility, and it have longer range. But if seriously, after this change I see no reason to build brood lord. They are more expensive, more vulnerable to everything, they require Hive + Greater spire, they are slow and have less health
That point is a thing, and it's that Broodlords are quite bad if not massed, snowballed with queen/infestor. Too slow, too fragile, and a big money and time investment, easily reached by its air counters. I would like to see a bit of redesign for every race for this.
- Improved Broodlords, specially speed and some range.
- Vikings being 8 range but 2.81 speed, and more dynamic on shot-movement mechanics.
- PDD being 45 seconds and Durable materials removed.
- Protoss colossus could reduce their range a bit too.
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On January 22 2015 05:31 Energizer wrote:
I guess zerg just isn't allowed to have cost effective units... Cant wait for the nerfs on the lurker.
As much as people dislike swarmhosts there seems to be a lack of understanding that they were the only unit that could give zerg sustainability. In WoL that role fell onto the infestor, but because apparently there wasn't enough counters for infestor based play they decided to just nerf it to shit just in time for HOTS, which gave zerg the swarm host. Out of necessity for many "mass em up" strats/2 base play the swarmhost became a staple to at least give the zerg something to hold onto, or someway to comeback after losing a third base.
I honestly think zerg is facing an identity crises, which wouldn't be so bad if the units themselves, weak as they maybe in blob fights, were changed to having lower supply - 1 supply abound for many of the zerg units. If that were the case I dont believe there would be such a need for such cost effective units and we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
get salty zerg, I have just faced that swarm host cancer style on ladder, I get NaNiwa and others completely, this is ruining passion if not sc2...
User was warned for this post
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On January 22 2015 04:23 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 03:52 Tenks wrote:On January 22 2015 02:03 MockHamill wrote:
Both Ravens and Swarm hosts are only problematic when massed.
I think it would be better to keep Swarm hosts and Ravens as they are but increase their supply to four.
That way Zerg could still use Swarm hosts in the midgame in order to transition to hive, but it would be harder to mass 20+ of them since they would take up a lot of supply.
Ravens would remain a good support unit, but less viable when massed since they would take up too much supply.
Man that would make getting an early Raven out against cloak banshee or hyper fast burrow roach play even more a pain in the ass No, that doesn't matter much if you are getting a single Raven.
Lol ye it does, majorly 0_0
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EPT
