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On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated.
Basically it sounds like if you use SH to attack a mech army it´s kinda all-inn from your side. You have to commit because if you don´t mech army has a huge window when you have less supply. If you commit you have to crush or stop them and then remix and kill them?
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On January 21 2015 23:44 -Archangel- wrote:
I think the point is to use them to attack less defended bases and hope terran Mech is too slow to counterattack.
The question is whether it fullfills that purpose. Like, the original idea of the swarm host was a siege weapon that allows zerg to siege opponents in the midgame if they get mapcontrol. That never happened. The design and the purpose never came together.
So what makes the design and the purpose come together with the new swarm host (and new purpose)? How does blizzard ensure that the swarm host does what they want it to do this time, after the miserable failure with the current swarm host, the current Tempest (anti-deathball unit because it shoots from afar, yeah lol; the tempest is THE deathball addition to Protoss in HotS), or the widow mine (a mine that protects the flanks of Mechplay and prevents counterattacking when Mech moves out; yeah right, that has probably never happened).
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On January 21 2015 23:49 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. Basically it sounds like if you use SH to attack a mech army it´s kinda all-inn from your side. You have to commit because if you don´t mech army has a huge window when you have less supply. If you commit you have to crush or stop them and then remix and kill them?
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. So if I attack their army and fail, I'm allin. If I use my cooldown to kill an Orbital Command Center or Planetry Fortrass and do not bind the army at all with the locust, not damage the Mech army at all, wouldn't that just make an attack - starting the moment the Terran realizes I started the locusts - even more severe than if I did attack the army and fail in the first place?
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On January 21 2015 23:46 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:33 -Archangel- wrote:
That is slow man. Fast is marine or unsieged tank. Slow is SH no matter how you try to spin it. Speed is not just moving but also how often it can "fire" and how long it needs to set up.
Tanks are also slow units as they need 1.5s to set up before firing. And unsieged tank or stimed marine are 2.25. When they are on the map, they have to be in a ball that cannot be overwhelmed by something that is actually fast like 3.0 speed roaches, 4.7speed zerglings, 2.95speed Stalkers with blink, 4.25speed hellions. Those things are fast. A marine on its own isn't very fast. Stim helps of course. What makes it mobile is the medivac allowing it to go out even if it could be overwhelmed and of course the transport function of the same unit. The swarm host isn't fast, but it is on the top end of siege weapons in starcraft and additionally has much more time to move around because it actually does not fight.
Nice how you ignored the point of my post and only read what you wanted to read.
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On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated.
1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so.
Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg.
If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now.
But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense)
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On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense)
How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200?
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On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200?
considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass
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On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200?
Thats how you always have to deal with a meching terran, otherwise they'll get Ravens and then you can't win anymore.
Not sure if the Raven change will change anything. 20 seconds is still long enough to take out almost all the damage of an attack.
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On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass
Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens.
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So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing?
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On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens.
Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens.
So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D
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On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D
Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts.
On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing?
If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable.
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On January 22 2015 00:12 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts. Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing? If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable.
You won't use swarmhosts as main army anymore, that's exactly the point 
The new swarmhost isn't actually good at fighting big mech armies , the old swarmhost wasn't goot at it either, BUT he made sure the mech army can't really move. The new sh doesn't do that.
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On January 22 2015 00:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:12 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts. On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing? If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable. You won't use swarmhosts as main army anymore, that's exactly the point The new swarmhost isn't actually good at fighting big mech armies , the old swarmhost wasn't goot at it either, BUT he made sure the mech army can't really move. The new sh doesn't do that.
I don't agree with that. What would your main army be? Roaches?
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On January 21 2015 16:38 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2015 16:29 Existor wrote:On January 21 2015 16:04 playa wrote:
As soon as I heard about this being in LotV, I was confused as to why they wouldn't at least test it in HotS. But, now that they are going to test it, it makes me think that LotV beta is never coming and Protoss has 0 new units atm. Protoss got most new units in HotS and they got very powerfull one in lotv. So stop complain about it Complaining? I'm just saying this made sense to do from the start. If they're doing this now, I get the feel that LotV beta won't be coming out for a long, long time. They decided to make LotV not because they had new ideas, but because that was the plan from the get go. It's a forced expansion and they won't release it until Toss has new units. Personally, I couldn't care less about LotV. I think this is great news. It merely makes me curious about how the contrived LotV will pan out. At this point, maybe Toss doesn't get any new units and there is a major redesign. Either way, it doesn't look promising on that front.
What do you mean Toss doesn't get new units? They're getting the Disruptor and likely a new Gateway unit.
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Applaudable move by blizzard. Sure it's kinda risky and will shake things up, making it hard for progamers, but it will be for the better of the game.
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On January 22 2015 00:21 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:12 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts. On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing? If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable. You won't use swarmhosts as main army anymore, that's exactly the point The new swarmhost isn't actually good at fighting big mech armies , the old swarmhost wasn't goot at it either, BUT he made sure the mech army can't really move. The new sh doesn't do that. I don't agree with that. What would your main army be? Roaches?
Why don't you agree with that?
I think people have to start with roaches and transition into broodlord/corrupter/infestor as lategame army.
Or maybe roach/hydra/viper to end it before super lategame.
Swarmhosts maybe to harass a little bit (you don't need a lot of them for that purpose though).
Maybe swarmhost timings become a thing now (cause they do more dps than before), but as time goes on locusts aren't really used to do a lot of dmg, they merely pin the mech army down. That won't really work with a 60 second delay between waves
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The only thing I dont like is that now the SH is exactly like the BL.
But w/e I welcome change.
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On January 22 2015 00:28 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 00:21 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:15 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:12 KeksX wrote:On January 22 2015 00:11 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 22 2015 00:04 RaFox17 wrote:On January 22 2015 00:02 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:58 RaFox17 wrote:On January 21 2015 23:55 The_Red_Viper wrote:On January 21 2015 23:40 Big J wrote:
Btw, two concerns about the new Swarm Host:
1) The locusts are better. How this does not make me wanna use them to overrun a tank position is beyond me. Like, previously I got little done with a wave of locusts. Now I get more done with a wave of locusts, for the price of less waves. So where do I send those waves? In a base to die to the counterattack while my 30 supply of more expensive Swarm Hosts are afk, or at his army? Well, when I send them, I propably need to kill army with them. Because when I invest into Swarm Hosts instead of something else, I have to rely on them preventing my opponent from just killing me.
2) flying locust looked cool in the current videos. But think about it, the locust then is a light, air unit that needs a landing animation before it attacks:
Phoenix
Thor
Turret
Marine
Viking
Meanwhile the Locusts don't tank for your Ultralisks and Infestors anymore! I'm not sure that the upgrade does improve the locust, or rather makes it more vulnerable as then it can be countered by air and ground attacks when those attacks are properly coordinated. 1) the locusts are better at dealing dmg as soon as they are actually in range to do so. Even right now that oftentimes won't be the case though cause the locusts simply die before they can do actual dmg. If anything these changes make swarmhost "timings" better (or a thing), but in actual macro games they are horrible now. But that was actually kinda the idea, swarmhosts are meant to be used as harassment now (2.)which is why the flying locust upgrade makes sense) How do you fight against a mech army then? Are you forced to do early/midgame roach/bane/ling busts to cripple terran economy in order to get ahead and finish him before they reach 200/200? considering they nerfed ravens i think you need to go into broodlord/corrupter/infestor with a few swarmhosts to harass Not sure about the raven nerf. You still can just spam PDD if you have 15-20 ravens. Sure, but these pdds will be gone in 20 seconds, so you "just" have to disengage if that happens. So yeah don't know if that actually works that well, but that's my idea atm :D Disengaging is not actually a thing with Swarm Hosts. Once you are caught with them having to move, terran reestablishes his army so that when you burrow to spawn locusts, you'll have tankwaves blasting your hosts. On January 22 2015 00:06 straycat wrote:
So vs mech you'll just be rushing hive? That research time tho... Death by mech timing, is that the new thing? If it's not 2 base mech, going Hive against mech is not unreasonable. You won't use swarmhosts as main army anymore, that's exactly the point The new swarmhost isn't actually good at fighting big mech armies , the old swarmhost wasn't goot at it either, BUT he made sure the mech army can't really move. The new sh doesn't do that. I don't agree with that. What would your main army be? Roaches? Why don't you agree with that? I think people have to start with roaches and transition into broodlord/corrupter/infestor as lategame army. Or maybe roach/hydra/viper to end it before super lategame. Swarmhosts maybe to harass a little bit (you don't need a lot of them for that purpose though). Maybe swarmhost timings become a thing now (cause they do more dps than before), but as time goes on locusts aren't really used to do a lot of dmg, they merely pin the mech army down. That won't really work with a 60 second delay between waves
Because all those units you just listed are extremely vulnerable to Terran mech. Broodlords get shredded by Thors and Vikings, and Corruptors are extremely volatile as well without proper support.
Support that Infestors could just give, but then Terran can 100% dictate the point of time, pace and positions of ANY engagement since you can only fungal outside of tank range. And Vipers really only help against terran mech balls, which is not the case against a smart player.
Without Swarm Hosts to make room and give the Zerg the opportunity to dictate part of the engagement, Zerg is having an uphill struggle basically the whole time.
Not considering that all of these units require different tech paths, upgrades and are expensive on their own and very, very easily lost.
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I'm curious if there has been any discussion on how the Siege Tank (which already had a very limited use) is rendered pretty damn useless with this change?
Additionally, zoning capabilities of Swarm Host change completely which might have the risk of Zerg once again being without proper area controlling units.
Raven with 20 secs lose a good bit of their zoning ability in early TvT, I'd rather see 40 secs (like LOTV) be tested first. In early TvT those shots are crucial, and being able to sort of wait the PDD out to save 2 Vikings may be very worth it and make the Raven useless.
As a last thing, I think Blizzard underestimates how strongly this changes PvZ in favor of Protoss.
In short, as a Random player who usually likes interesting changes, I am very worried. But I'm unsure if discussion on any of these topics has happened already (could anybody give me the page number?).
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EPT
